Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

The 14 days seems to work but should not be etched in stone. At Liveaquaria.com we started with no guarantee. Several years ago we offered 7 days. We felt that was taking care of most of our customers but 14 days would keep things more equitable. At 14 days it appears we equally share. The customers seem satisfied and so are we. It is similar to the ever popular 30 day merchandise guarantees. Why not 45 days? I do not know.

There is no science, it just seems to be our common ground reached by trial and error. Other business models may find a different equitable position but the guarantee should be substantial and IMO, at the very least seven days.

Great question and thanks.
 
I for one love to shop at the LFS. It gives me the opportunity to see the livestock in person and in action so I can make a decision on what I see. I also trust DD and any other etailer that F&S backs, because of their gaurantee and personal expierience buying quality live stock from them. The gaurantee means alot. Most LFS have repeat clients that they have come to know, so why would you be hesitant to offer a gaurantee. Did I mention that my LFS is Foster & Smith retail store. They carry the same gaurantee as Live aquaria, so what's the problem?
 
Race,

Interesting thread and let me say that LA is the main online vendor that I use due to the attitude that Kevin and you take toward your customers but I also think that certain guarantees on livestock do more damage than good in this industry when it comes to being responsible to nature and I base this off of the general attitude that the majority of marine aquarium keepers have toward their livestock.

Let's face it, people on RC make up a very small demographic of the people in this hobby. The rest either don't know about the site or have a tank just for something pretty to look at and have no interest in taking it any further than that and I am sure many of them order their livestock online for the convenience.
Offering a no questions asked 14 day guarantee can sometimes give these people a complacent attitude about making sure that they are doing everything they can to acclimate their livestock and provide it with the best conditions possible since they are of the mindset that if the fish dies I can just get another one sent to me or credit on a future purchase as long as it is less than 14 days. Unfortunately, this hobby consists of more of what I described above and not the true hobbyists who understand the responsibilities of keeping delicate living marine animals.

Am I saying that you shouldn't offer a guarantee? No, because it is so much more important for online businesses to offer them since we are unable to physically go in and see what we are buying but your policy is probably the most flexible I have ever come across as most other online vendors make their customers go through a checks and balance to prove what caused the demise of the livestock. Even though this process is a pain it helps weed out the legitimate cases of vendor fault.
 
I read part of the reefs.org discussion and it seems rather flawed to me, I am the only person I know who really knows anything about fish where I live and no one orders online. They don't want to spend the shipping money and fear how it will turn out as opposed to seeing it in front of them. For F&S to go under for whatever reason would mean the end of my tanks, it's a 6 hour one way drive to a decent lfs, so that doesn't happen.
I can't even buy anything saltwater (dry goods or live) within two hours and then it's twice the price and no guarentee. I have ordered from swf.com, also a two week guarentee and have had bad experiences, I got a credit but won't use it because frankly I don't trust them to send healthy livestock.
I do agree some livestock carried by them should have little to no guarentee, the expert level items (moorish idols, etc) to discourage people from buying fish that just don't make it but for my part I've had fish die from F&S that was MY fault, I don't ask for a refund in this case but it's the deciding factor in my ordering from them, I won't order from an etailer with a arrive-alive only guarentee, too much risk on my part. As for them "cheapening" the hobby, they actively captive breed and raise, plus run the frag swap and open their doors for anyone to see, they also remain active on these boards and provide info on care. What more do you want?
 
Thank you for the posts.

It is a fact that a guarantee could encourage the purchase of a fish, under the assumption that it can be easily replaced.

It is not that we do not ask or handle informational questions however. At Liveaquaria.com we answer hundreds and sometimes thousands of questions each and every day. Only about 26 % of the telephone calls result in an order. All the rest are simply free advice to the hobby. We welcome calls and emails under no obligation to order. Education is our speciality.

Personally, I feel that this free " life saving" education far outweighs any potential negatives. From a practical standpoint I have seen little evidence that our customers view fish and coral as disposable. If they did we would run out of "guarantee money" in a hurry.

The fact is our replacement rate runs about 4.7 % -- through shipping and 14 days, which is less than other steps in the distribution chain. Still 4.7 % too high, but I am at a loss as to getting it to zero.

At 4.7 % through shipping and 14 days I am comfortable with the guarantee---- but for both compassion and financial reasons will work to reduce that. The best bet is to start with quality livestock in the first place. Good fish from a quality source will save guarantee money---- and a life.

" Quality starts before the final vendor".

"The guarantee" will make waves upstream and a better industry will trickle down. I will bet on that!

Thanks, Race
 
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I want to clarify again for those who do not wish to read this entire thread.

The " Guarantee " is not about Retail vs. Etail. I participate in both and will openly admit that Retail is the backbone of this hobby.

The internet has provided us 24 hour a day options and has made the hobby available to the most remote areas of the U.S. It has brought us selection and education. But in all it's wonder it will not replace the quality LFS that so many are blessed to have nearby.

I have always felt that all things being equal "a quality LFS with a guarantee is better than an internet site with the same guarantee" There is no substitute for personal service.


I support Retail and Etail----- but without a guarantee, I would not buy livestock from either.

Race
 
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I have almost posted here several times now and just keep deleting it. I am really of many minds with regard to this issue.

I certainly believe that in an altruistic world, a guarantee, passed back up stream would improve handling and morality. I absolutely agree that there is substantial mishandling and mistreatment at the wholesale level and certainly at the retail level, but I would not lump all wholesalers or retailers together. I absolutely agree that drop shipping could improve the situation. And...I absolutely applaud LA for their efforts in improving the moratlity rates of livestock. Your influence in the business is noticeable. I would bet, no I know, that QM mortality has been reduced not just to LA but to retailers as a result of your business model.

That being said, I am not sure how to get there from here. It would be nice if all of the retailers just up and said they would offered a guarantee and that all of a sudden the wholesalers got religion, but I am too much of a realist.

I think the answer is really a combination of things.

I am amazed at the heat LA has taken for the drop shipping and the heat QM took for providing that service. What really amazes me is that the retailers didn't demand the same service. Sure they can't sell a yellow tang by drop shipment. They need to spread the Delta Dash cost over several boxes of common stuff. But they sure didn't sell me that blue line angel or regal angel last week either. I bought it from LA because you had it listed for sale. The local LFS didn't. Sure they would have given me the same old "we can get anything line", but they didn't have it for sale right then. Why wouldn't they want access to the same treatment. I would demand that QM or any of the wholesalers offer software that could be interfaced by the consumer at the LFS. It would be continuously updated, allow dropshipping to the customer, provide a guarantee, and pay the retailer a small fee for allowing the wholesaler that access to the public. Everybody wins, including the livestock. Am I not the only one, besides LA, who has had this idea and sees the potential sales.

Seriously, the typical LFS model is badly broken. How many LFS even make the wholesale list available to their customers with the suppliers names and prices blacked out. Almost none, and that seems like a no brainer to me.

I have a very good relationship with my LFS and in my opinion he does it as well as can be done. He cannot carry the purple rhinopia that I purchased two weeks ago, but he dang sure lets his customers know what is available on a weekly basis. He certainly wasn't shy about getting his salesman on the telephone with me listening and question how pretty and what size that fish was. Kudos to Sea Dwelling Creatures are in order at this point as the sales person even sent me a picture via phone at our request.

I will add this last thought; I make a trip to the Atlanta area about every two-three months and visit, without fail, The Fish Store and More, Marine Fish and Reef, Cappuccino Bay and Imagine Ocean. Imagine Ocean is the latest addition to my rounds and came as a direct result of Jenn’s insistence on other forums that their store “did it right.” I am not endorsing any of the stores I have mentioned but find them interesting. In fact, to cut to the chase, there is at least one of those stores that talk a much different game than they play. Believe me that last sentence was edited a few times. I will say that Imagine Ocean is not that store. I don’t know Jenn personally and don’t know that I have met her in the store. Except for Imagine Ocean, I have purchased something from each of those stores and carried it to Pensacola. I can honestly say that Imagine Ocean does appear to attempt to do it right and I sympathize with her position.

Excuse the ramble, the rant and any spelling errors.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10931898#post10931898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Redfish
I am amazed at the heat LA has taken for the drop shipping and the heat QM took for providing that service. What really amazes me is that the retailers didn't demand the same service. Sure they can't sell a yellow tang by drop shipment. They need to spread the Delta Dash cost over several boxes of common stuff. But they sure didn't sell me that blue line angel or regal angel last week either. I bought it from LA because you had it listed for sale. The local LFS didn't. Sure they would have given me the same old "we can get anything line", but they didn't have it for sale right then. Why wouldn't they want access to the same treatment. I would demand that QM or any of the wholesalers offer software that could be interfaced by the consumer at the LFS. It would be continuously updated, allow dropshipping to the customer, provide a guarantee, and pay the retailer a small fee for allowing the wholesaler that access to the public. Everybody wins, including the livestock. Am I not the only one, besides LA, who has had this idea and sees the potential sales.
Click to expand...

It's not that easy. Most LFS do not have the buying "clout" to pick any fish on a list and assure that it will be on their next shipment. Some LFS so it is difficult for them to setup a asystem similar to what LA has done with QM. There are so many LFS accross the country that get the exact same list and more than one could be vying for the one speciman available especially if the fish is rarely collected.
 
why 14 days??? i think that is a long time for a store to give a guarantee. usally if a fish is going to die it will die is shipping or in a couple of days. i love the 14 day guarantee and have never had a fish that i got from DFS die in shipping or in 14 days.. keep up the good work you guys do over there..
 
It's not that easy. Most LFS do not have the buying "clout" to pick any fish on a list and assure that it will be on their next shipment. Some LFS so it is difficult for them to setup a asystem similar to what LA has done with QM. There are so many LFS accross the country that get the exact same list and more than one could be vying for the one speciman available especially if the fish is rarely collected.
Click to expand...

If the system worked as I specified, how would that be any different then ordering from LA? QM is not guaranteeing the availability of drop shipped stock and the Divers Den is first come first served. I would bet my LFS competes for the normal stock. And, in fact, NO LFS has the absolute clout you stated above. Sure there are some accounts big enough to request their salesman hold an unusual specimen, but if ain't requested up front, it is first come first served.

In fact, if there was anything Race has stated that I question, perhaps with a wink, is his assertion that his fish are separeted by allocation for quantine at the drop shipper. First, that would seem to go against his stated purpose of improving mortality. Why not demand everything be treated equally. Second, the evidence is that when QM lists say 2 Declivis butterflies for sale and they get sold on the retail side, they are no longer listed on LA. Now there may be a huge number of coincidences but I would hazard a guess that it is easier for QM to treat most all those types of fish for any eventual sale as it is not in the best interest of QM to allocate to LA. They would lose the bulk of their retail sales. Yellow tang type fish would, of course, be different.
 
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From what I am told from QM the livestock is allocated to us by the percentage of sales we represent. I do not know what that percentage is but rarely do we get the quantity of rare fish and coral we desire. I do not like it but it is 100% fair to all accounts.

For that reason Kevin uses almost all of the other wholesalers and distributors to populate his Diver's Den. That livestock is then flown to Rhinelander, Wisconsin, quarantined and observed until sold. Kevin and Steve provide the husbandry and make all of the selling decisions, based on specie, health etc.

I actually think that QM is the most fair to their retail accounts. They are honest and to a large extent pioneered livestock health improvement in this industry. Their supply lines appear to be the most ethical. Their facility is outstanding as are the people. I would urge every retailer and etailer to support them. They are not a company that the "Guarantee" needs to force improvement upon. They are already there.

I want this discussion to stay about the guarantee, but this was close.
 
Race, I edited on you above. But my point is twofold. You are improving the situation and there is a better way for the LFS to operate that involves many of your assertions.
 
I would also rank QM right at the top of the wholesale list although I am partial to one other due to their service of my local LFS as stated above.
 
From what I personally observed at QM it appeared to me that all of their livestock is quarantined, medicated (if need be) and observed before being sold--- to anyone, etail or retail. I do not think anyone ever has to worry about their livestock. They do not turn and burn livestock. I can say that I have personally observed the protocol. I am not there 24 hours per day but every time that I have observed, it was top rate.

We need to keep this about the guarantee and I guess my only way to do that is to reiterate that QM is one wholesaler who does not a guarantee to improve. I will just say it---they are as good as it gets. Retailers and Etailers who use them know that it pays dividends.

I do not want this to become a thread about endorsing QM so I will leave it at that without future comments.

Please keep communicating, I will leave the discussions to the hobby for awhile. Thanks--Race
 
One more thing on the turn and burn concept at the wholesale level.

A common protocol is for the wholesale facility to load up on livestock on Monday and sell out by Friday. This does the following. It reduces the wholesaler's loss by not keeping livestock over the weekend, reduces inventory holding costs and allows a day or two for the system to be bleached.

IMO this is the practice of turning and burning livestock resulting in an inadequate quarantine and observation. The end result, mortality and death as unhealthy specimens "escape" the system and a financial loss to the retailer, etailer or hobbyist who buys from them.

One top notch wholesaler who I will not mention again has a sophisticated multi-harboring system that does not need to be "flushed" of livestock to be sanitized. Subsequently, the livestock can remain on site for proper quarantine and observation prior to ship out. No turning and burning. I have personally observed this in action so there is no speculation on my part. This is the type of facility to use, trust me.

I might add that we use the "turners and burners" because we have to in order to obtain enough of the rarer items. NONE of these fish are sold to a hobbyist until they are sent to Kevin in Wisconsin for proper quarantine, observation, feeding etc. These are then sold on the Diver's Den's for a bit more to cover the cost of Kevin's brokering and care. In the perfect world, we would avoid the "turners and burners" but at least Kevin's intervention is a blessing. We do not dropship from these facilities.

I will not comment on it again, but wanted to clarify.
 
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I asked this question on the other forum, but Race conveniently opted not to answer, so I'll ask it here...

Race, on the previous page in this thread you said:

The fact is our replacement rate runs about 4.7 % -- through shipping and 14 days, which is less than other steps in the distribution chain. Still 4.7 % too high, but I am at a loss as to getting it to zero.
Click to expand...

In the thread on reefs.org you said,

And is there any support that my death rates are better or worse than retail. While I was in California and saw retail charge backs for mortality on inbound freight to US retailers, I think that I am doing very well. Remember you have to include shipping carnage to your stores and IN your stores as I include mine in the dropship and the hobbyist's tank and in my facilities.

Those losses and charge backs alone were frightening and the reason why I will not become a Wholesaler. Hopefully all of you guys are honest on these charges backs.

Bottom line--shipping directly to the hobbyists saves lives in my opinion and more than makes up for any uneducated losses. Any Wholesalers want to jump in and compare retail charge backs to my 4.7% overall.
Click to expand...

My question to you is this:

If the same wholesalers are shipping to the retail stores and to your customers, using the same sources, same water, same shipping and other variables, then why would your customers' DOA/DAA rates after 14 days be so much less than a retail store? It doesn't make sense. Shouldn't they be the same? Maybe even less for retailers, because they know how to handle and acclimate animals that have been in boxes for a day or more?

I'm sure there are just as many hobbyists with water quality that's as good/bad as there are LFS... so all things being equal, how do you figure that?

I'm scratching my head trying to figure that one out.

Redfish - thanks for the kind words. Please introduce yourself when you come in again. Chances are I was there when you came in - if there's a woman working in the store, that's me. I'm there at least 98% of the time that we're open and if I'm not I'll usually be back shortly ;) I've only taken 3 days off this year!

As to insisting that wholesalers dropship for retailers - that's a great point and one that's been brought up over on RDO. Personally I don't like the practice so I wouldn't request it, but IMO any LFS who wants to should be able to.

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare if every wholesaler's entire customer base demanded dropshipping? People wouldn't know if they were coming or going.

Of course I don't support wholesalers that allow cherry pickers either - but that's another story.

Race, I look forward to you answering my question.
 
I have been watching this thread with extreme interest for the last few days. I am both an Etailer and brick and mortar retailer with 27 LFS and over 50 years of experience selling live fish. I feel that Dr. Foster is correct with his thoughts on a 14 day guarantee. Historically, we have only offered a 7 day guarantee online and in our retail stores. This thread, along with other factors, has made us step back and look at everything we strive to offer. We strongly believe in the quality of fish we sell and if it won’t live for 14 days, then why would we want to sell it? Yes, there are many variables with live fish and corals, including compatibility, water conditions, proper lighting, etc, but this is all about staff training and consumer education. If we can properly address the concerns and help educate our customers, then they can properly care for the fish they buy and ensure they live for more than 14 days. Let’s be realistic, if their fish can’t live for 14 days, then why would they want to come back and buy more?

Our hobby is facing difficult times as many prospective younger generation members are spending their hard earned money and allowances on electronics, video games, and other consumer options. We need to do what we can to entice them to get into a hobby that will not “drain” their pockets and a longer Guarantee will help ensure their success.

We only buy our fish from the best wholesalers and we pay top dollar for them. We currently use one location in LA and one in Michigan to supply our stores as well as our online customers. We have used/experimented with every vendor over the years, and we have found that quality far outweighs low cost when it comes to live fish. We could cut costs by over 20% by using other vendors, but we feel our quality would be jeopardized, and that is unacceptable.

Etail vs. Retail
I am sure this is most likely where this debate started. As a business owner of both, I feel confident that I understand both sides as well as anyone. Our online competes with our retail and vice versa. Petsmart and Petco taught retailers 10 years ago that you must have clean stores, updated fixtures, product and livestock diversification, and superior customer service if you want to survive in this industry. Why are some LFS suffering? Some say low prices, other say online companies, some say the Life Fish Guarantee. There is nothing better than instant gratification and seeing a clean aquarium with beautiful fish will make people buy then and there. Don’t compete on price, compete with one on one service, cleanliness, product and livestock variety, and education. If retail was a thing of the past we would not have opened 2 new LFS stores in the past 4 months with 2 more planned. Yes, it is challenging, but isn’t that what this is all about?

Our goal is for this hobby to continue the success it has had in the past. As of this afternoon our Ecommerce site has changed from a 7 day to a 14 day guarantee. Our retail stores will take a little longer as we change our guarantee forms and signage, but we will guarantee all freshwater and marine fish for 14 days soon.

As a friendly note, I will not respond to posts on this thread b/c it is a DFS thread and I have purposely left out the name of our company, as I am NOT posting here for my own benefit, but for the benefit of this hobby and the aquatic industry. I have a tremendous amount of respect for DFS and many of our other competitors, and I am here because I feel Dr. Foster is right and it is time everyone to support the hobby. I challenge all LFS to offer a 14 day guarantee.

J.B. Brenner
 
Do not let this become retail vs. etail or I will have it deleted.

A fish sitting in MY retail store in Wisconsin is not yet home. That same fish ordered dropshipped is.

My retail fish has one more bagging, travel, quarantine and acclimation to go before it's final destination. One more than the dropshipped fish. Additionally it may contact a disease while at MY facility. None of us are immune to that and many diseases have a several day incubation period which means that a specimen may look healthy and yet be terminally ill. The customer who orders that same fish dropshipped already has that fish safe and secure in their quarantine tank----------- and it will not be exposed to a "new disease event" while in my retail store. Still may die but I have not added retail stress to the equation. The guarantee will take care of them.

The mortality of a dropshipped fish has one opportunity to happen after leaving wholesale and that is in shipping and customer care. A retailed fish has two after it leaves wholesale. One when it enters retail. Deaths here go in the five gallon waterless bucket as charge backs. One retailer on RDO who apparently needs a new wholesaler stated that he was instructed not to worry unless mortality exceeded 5%. If we are already at 5% mortality in this step and we still have " My LFS mortality" to go and the "14 day guarantee mortality" what is the final for gods sake? It has to be more than 4.7 %.

Here is a wholesaler that should be out of the industry for good. The guarantee will pressure this outfit to shape up or get out.

Notice I use the term "my lfs". I am only going to mention what I know happens in my own store. Should someone want to argue that their store is better or does not develop sick livestock than they may. For sure they should not be scared of " the guarantee"

I think it would be great if retailers would offer a dropshipped option for their customers. This is done all the time in the prescription drug world where I make my living. One word of caution though. Only QM is properly set up dropship a quarantined and healthy specimen. I or Kevin have been in the rest and it is "in on Monday out by Friday". I would not to fund the guarantee on these dropshipped fish and it would be disservice to the industry and the oceans.

Retailers and etailers can accomplish the same objective, it just takes different steps----- and the mortality through MY retail system will be higher because of these "extra steps"---- but the end result to the customer can be the same. In other words I can sell just as good of a fish from MY retail store but I will suffer more mortality in the process than if I sell that same fish via dropship. I have no problem guaranteeing either and I do.

Again , no arguements on etail vs retail. My job is to explain how things work in my own busineeses not anyone elses.

Understanding this allows one to see why in either venue, I am not worried about guaranteeing my livestock. If you start with good livestock, apply proper husbandry and care, reduce shipping and bagging events--- then you are selling good specimens worthy of a guarantee.
 
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So, Race, if "only" QM is set up to quarantine your drop ships, what about the other wholesalers you use? You've mentioned on several occasions that you mainly use QM and "5" wholesalers. What about the other 5 (or 4?) Are they turn and burn operations like you describe, since ONLY QM does the quarantine thing for you?

You've also stated that you've used just about every wholesaler in Los Angeles... so what of those?

It's OK for you to fill dropship orders *sometimes* from the turn and burners....?

I'm confused. You are contradicting yourself.

Jenn
 
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