Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
Stop arguing or please leave my forum. I use "turners and burners" as supply to the Diver's Den. I was very clear on that and I have never dropshipped livestock from them.

Stick to the guarantee and facts or please refrain from posting.

Thank you, Race

 

[JennM]

Gee Race, it was only a question. I made no accusations - I've just asked questions. Why so defensive? I may not be your customer, but I do believe that the questions I've asked are appropriate and relevant *to* your customers.

Thank you for clarifying that you ONLY use suppliers other than QM for shipments to your WI facility for your Diver's Den selections, and NOT for dropshipping. That clarifies a lot.

I also asked mortality questions which you refuse to answer. I'm not looking to fight, I am simply asking questions. The questions are relevant to the guarantee and your claims of 4.7 % mortality. The question remains a few posts up the board. Thanks

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

As some of you may know, the Brenners are historically one of the great retail families in the midwest. They also run a very ethical online business. They thoroughly understand the chain of distribution and do what is right for this hobby and their customers. Please see their post above.

You may visit their high quality stores in Ohio and order from them online as PetSolutions.com. They are worthy of your business.

Thanks, J.B--------Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
Please stop needling and read my post just up from yours. I clearly represent what happens in MY retail store and why the overall mortality is different in MY retail store.

Focus on the guarantee as other retailers who have posted here. Making up inconsistencies is not productive and severely undermines your credibility and our focus.

Please read before you write in my forum and stop the needling.

 

[SuAsati]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934352#post10934352 target=_blank></a>
I also asked mortality questions which you refuse to answer. I'm not looking to fight, I am simply asking questions. The questions are relevant to the guarantee and your claims of 4.7 % mortality. The question remains a few posts up the board. Thanks
Jenn

I believe this is the rational he is using to justify drop shipping.... It is a valid argument in my opinion....

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934260#post10934260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1


A fish sitting in MY retail store in Wisconsin is not yet home. That same fish ordered dropshipped is.

My retail fish has one more bagging, travel, quarantine and acclimation to go before it's final destination. One more than the dropshipped fish. Additionally it may contact a disease while at MY facility. None of us are immune to that and many diseases have a several day incubation period which means that a specimen may look healthy and yet be terminally ill. The customer who orders that same fish dropshipped already has that fish safe and secure in their quarantine tank----------- and it will not be exposed to a "new disease event" while in my retail store. Still may die but I have not added retail stress to the equation. The guarantee will take care of them.

[/B]

In addition to that the situation actually gets worse if you realize there are more poorly maintained LFS than the goodones.... He also has not added an additional stop local distributers.... many LFS still get their fish from the local/regional wholesellers.... And I am pretty sure they don't QT.....

 

[JennM]

I wasn't referring to your retail store. I was referring to drop ship DAA statistics that you provided. You stated that DAA mortality is more from wholesalers to retailers, than it is from dropship from your entity to hobbyists.

My question was an honest and legitimate one. You have made a blanket statement about other LFS and mortality, without backing it up with facts. I am simply asking how you arrived at that conclusion.

If you don't wish to answer the question, just say so, and I'll stop asking it.

Respectfully,

Jenn

 

[JennM]

SuAsati, your statement about bad LFS and good ones, fits with my question. There are just as many hobbyists with poor water quality as there are with good water quality. That is why I'm asking about the DAA statistics.

All things being equal, one would think that DAA stats would be similar between wholesale and retail as between wholesale and hobbyist. Race stated that his way is somehow better, and I'm simply asking how that's possible.

Cheers,
Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

What you are witnessing by this discussion is proof that there are those of us willing to come together for the common good of the hobby.

The Brenner family, one of my greatest and best competitors have joined this discussion for the common good. We are arch rivals when it comes to marketing and attempting to get your business.----------- But today the discussion is not about sales or who is better than whom. It is about what is right for the image and future of this hobby.

I am proud to have my name on the same page as a Brenner.

The hobby is evolving and so will the industry. We are proof. Already things are getting accomplished.

 

[SuAsati]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934543#post10934543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
SuAsati, your statement about bad LFS and good ones, fits with my question. There are just as many hobbyists with poor water quality as there are with good water quality. That is why I'm asking about the DAA statistics.

Wrong, the quantity and rate at which a bad LFS would lose fish is much higher than a collective of bad hobbist. Cause, LFS gets more fish more often, they have a higher logistical challenge and the pressure to move the stock quick to save on their loss.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934543#post10934543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
All things being equal, one would think that DAA stats would be similar between wholesale and retail as between wholesale and hobbyist. Race stated that his way is somehow better, and I'm simply asking how that's possible.

Cheers,
Jenn [/B]

All things are not equal, he is not comparing the loss between dropship(wholesale to customer) vs retail stocking (wholesale to retail) but he is comparing the former(dropship) to wholesale-retail-customer.... You are adding an additional layer (I actually added another in some cases which is local distributers) to it ..... it just throws your numbers even more.... I am not sure if it is statistcally accurate but I would think the number is high.... mainly because there are more hobbists that are much better than the majority of LFS in taking care of the fish, if not anything, just due to logistical ease.

 

[JennM]

SuAsati, I don't think I follow. A percentage is a percentage. Clearly hobbyists will buy fewer numbers of fish than a store.

I wasn't adding layers. The discussion was about wholesale to hobbyist versus wholesale to LFS.

I simply asked why a LFS would experience more losses than a hobbyist.

If some LFS have good water and some have bad, just as some hobbyists have good water and some hobbyists have bad, then why would the numbers be "different"?

I do dozens of water tests for hobbyists every week. I haven't kept records of the percentages of good to bad, but I can tell you that there are plenty of hobbyists out there with nitrates off the chart.

My question stands.

Respectfully,

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Let's please keep the discussion to the guarantee and improvement of the hobby.

Whatever your argument is Jenn, it appears that you more than anyone should not be afraid of a 14 day guarantee. If you have the quality--- guarantee it.

 

[JennM]

OK Race, you don't want to answer the question, so I'll stop asking it

Sometimes silence speaks louder than words.

Jenn

 

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934657#post10934657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
OK Race, you don't want to answer the question, so I'll stop asking it

Sometimes silence speaks louder than words.

Jenn

It seems to me your question has been answered several times.

 

[SuAsati]

I will do this one last time, and stay away as requested....

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934625#post10934625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
SuAsati, I don't think I follow. A percentage is a percentage. Clearly hobbyists will buy fewer numbers of fish than a store.

True....

I wasn't adding layers. The discussion was about wholesale to hobbyist versus wholesale to LFS.

In that case, like I said the number maybe different but there can still be an explanation..... but I donot know if that is the case, since noone probably knows the reality.... and since race was just comparing the chargebacks, it probably isn't as accurate either since not all death are charged back....

I simply asked why a LFS would experience more losses than a hobbyist.

Logistics is one main reason, ten idividuals taking care of 10 fish in teo different systems vs one/two individuals taking care of 10 fish in a single system, the scale may tip depending on which way you tilt the sample group.

If some LFS have good water and some have bad, just as some hobbyists have good water and some hobbyists have bad, then why would the numbers be "different"?

I do dozens of water tests for hobbyists every week. I haven't kept records of the percentages of good to bad, but I can tell you that there are plenty of hobbyists out there with nitrates off the chart.

My question stands.

Respectfully,

Jenn

I truly believe the ratio of bad LFS to Good LFS is far higher than of bad hobbist to good hobbist.... you can't really compare from the watertests you do, as it is more likely the serious hobbists have their own tests.



Now as for garantee..... I don't think it is fair to request the same requirements for LFS as for online vendors.... as a consumer I am risking a little more when buying online, than I would in an LFS, but still would like maybe a couple of days of live garantee.... after all I do have the luxury of watching the fish over a period of time before I take it home... while the risk factor is on the shoulders of the LFS...

 

[JennM]

Now as for garantee..... I don't think it is fair to request the same requirements for LFS as for online vendors.... as a consumer I am risking a little more when buying online, than I would in an LFS, but still would like maybe a couple of days of live garantee.... after all I do have the luxury of watching the fish over a period of time before I take it home... while the risk factor is on the shoulders of the LFS...

Thank you. That illustrates the point I have made all along. Once again, to recap. Race and I don't necessarily have different objectives where the longevity of a fish are concerned. We simply have a *DIFFERENT APPROACH* to it.

He chooses to guarantee it after the sale, after it's either (26%) shipped from his facility or drop shipped from a wholesaler (74) *

Instead, I have a shorter post-sale guarantee, but I hold my livestock before selling, make sure the creatures are fed and rested and have not shown any signs of disease (diseases treated if they present) and I'm more proactive about working with the customer *before* the sale (water testing etc.) I also work with the customer after the sale if any concerns should arise.

Same goal, different approach. I am glad that you understand and appreciate that from your statement.

*The figures I mentioned here were posted by Race on Reefs.org

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:20 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Race and Marty ship about 26% of their livestock from their Wisconsin facility. All new sales growth is from Wisconsin, hence our $500,000.00+ marine fish expansion project, which will be completed within 60 days in Wisconsin. The facility will be open for all to view at the June, 2007 Fish and Coral Conference held in Rhinelander, Wisconsin.

I will probably dropship until I dropdead--- but by design, it's relevancy is decreasing.

Since my name was mentioned, I wanted my facts accurate and public.

Thanks, Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

If the end "product" to the hobbyist consumer is same, which I AGREE it is at least in MY retail store.

Then why not the same guarantee?

In other words, if at the time of sale to the consumer the livestock is equal ( through selection and care), and I AGREE it can be--- then why not the same guarantee??? What am I missing?

I think that I am hearing a select few who are not in favor of offering their customers a decent guarantee.

 

[JennM]

I guess our definition of "decent" differs, Race. My customers appear satisfied with the quality and service I offer, so I see no reason to change that - for you or for anyone else - OTHER than my customers.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Then Jenn do not change it. I personally never asked you too and that is your right as a business owner, I respect that.

What I did ask, is for the hobbyist to not support a vendor who does not have a written and substantial guarantee. And that is my message.

I would not buy livestock from anyone who will not guarantee it, perhaps that is just me. We will see in about 5 years.

Truce----------Race

 

[JennM]

LOL the entire premise of this thread was to compel people to demand a guarantee.

I have a guarantee - it's not the same as yours, but it's printed on every receipt that leaves my store.

So I guess I meet the criteria I guess the word "substantial" is subject to interpretation and relative to the care that the fish receive prior to leaving a given facility.

So let me ask you this... if a fish were in a shop for, say a week or so, and the staff could verify the arrival date of the specimen, and then a customer placed the fish on hold for another week, was satisfied and took it home, would that not be at least equal to your 14-day guarantee?

Often stores have fish for longer than 2 weeks. I mentioned once I had a really ugly fish for 2 years, then gave it away. Is that not at least as good as buying sight unseen with a 14 day guarantee in conditions you have no control over?

I think it's all relative.

And for what it's worth, I don't like shops that turn and burn out of the bag either - I don't engage in that practice and I encourage consumers not to buy into it. Guarantee or otherwise - but that's another post.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Guys,
No more posts on etail vs retail. They will not be answered and will be deleted. Both can sell great livestock.

The guarantee concept is not about who has the best livestock but who is willing to stand behind the product which they are taking the hobbyist's money for.

Retail or Etail , if you believe in your livestock, guarantee it. If you do not fine.

Hobbyists, if want guaranteed livestock, the concept has already caught on. If you do not there are places that sell un-guaranteed as well. You make the choice and the industry will adapt. The ball is in your court.