Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

[nosferatu51]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10941253#post10941253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
nosferatu51, did you ever receive a replacement achilles?

Yes, I received him yesterday. As of this morning he is healthy seeming, swimming around, playing in the flow and eating. If I had felt that it was my fault the original had died, I would not have replaced him either, but since it was something completely out of my control and this is one of my favorite fish I felt I should give it a try. I believe I have provided the best environment I can and it seems up to the standards of others that have been successful to this fish.
I completely agree with talking most people out of purchases, I do it sometimes when I am at an LFS and overhear conversations that indicate to me that a person should not be buying a fish (eg: "Look at that cute little panther grouper, I bet he'd be a good friend for Nemo...."). At the same time, I believe that those of us who have a better understanding of what we are doing and are willing to put forth the effort should have a resource where we can acquire more complicated fish. While sad, it is the trial and error process by the more capable that has allowed us to move forward as we have with techniques, equipment, etc.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
Your point is valid but why keep the guarantee away from all the responsible customers because this guy used bad judgement? Why punish the good guys? Why keep their money?

 

[aquaticvet1]

I wanted to quickly post a little known fact. I did not start LiveAquaria.com as a business. We purchased the company from a prominent Ohio businessman who owns retail fish stores and owned Petwarehouse. The idea was conceived by a retailer who is still in the LFS business today. We applied the guarantee concept at a later date.

 

[aquaticvet1]

We also purchased Flying Fish Express which was owned by a California Wholesaler. We then purchased Etropicals who was owned by a Florida Wholesaler/Importer.

Just wanted to educate those who were unaware. As you can see there has been an evolution here which includes retail, wholesale and the current day LFS founded, LiveAquaria.com.

This is not about retail vs etail.

 

[SuAsati]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10941784#post10941784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM

*This* exactly illustrates my argument about how such guarantees *can* be a detriment. If he didn't have a way to absolve himself of any obligation to the creature and get his investment back, he likely would have taken the advice given and possibly saved the remainder of the coral. Since it's a no-fault guarantee, who cares? Just get the cash back, after all he's a struggling student.

Sad.

Jenn

The guarantee is not at fault here, the stipulation to the guarantee is at fault, if the LFS had told try and frag it and see if you can save it, if you are not happy at that point or still lost it, we will still honor the guarantee.... he probably would have tried to save it. LA probably would have said try and save it, we will still return your money...
Most LFS seem to look at the customer as the guilty party, I have felt it several times myself.... and never returned to those stores.

Guarantee as such in number of days or written contract doesn't mean much, it is how the vendor approaches you when you are in need of exercising the warranty that matters, and that is what I would contribute to LA's success.... Case and point, there is a thread right now below this of an unsatisfied customer, but it is being taken care off.... no gripe no hassel. And to point out the quote you referred to elsewhere, I was told try and feed all you could and if it still doesn't eat and if I was unsatisfied, I would get a refund. And contrary to your conclusion, I did try everything including a 40$ shipment of live mysis...... and LA got my repeat business. In fact your theory about guarantee is an exact opposite of what most would do when they have a safety net.
It is not the 14day gaurantee that LA gives that matters, it is actually the satisfaction of the customer they care about, sure there will be some scrupulous consumers taking advantage of that, but the outcome is far more new and repeat customers, than the few that take advantage of the situation....
Frankly I don't support race with the mandatory 14day guarantee, but I would be more than willing to go to a LFS that doesn't look at me as if I am thief when I run in to issues and seek their help. And I do, and still shop their...

 

[aquaticvet1]

I also did not conceive "The Guarantee " concept. That is another Retail founded entity practiced at PetsMart, Petco, Walmart and others BEFORE I ever entered the trade.
We applied the concept to the "retail founded" Liveaquaria.com and felt it improved customer confidence and forced us to improve our overall livestock supply chain, husbandry and packing.

The guarantee works and we took it FROM RETAIL and applied to Etail. I think we need to understand that fact.

 

[JennM]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10941838#post10941838 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
Jenn,
Your point is valid but why keep the guarantee away from all the responsible customers because this guy used bad judgement? Why punish the good guys? Why keep their money?

On the flipside of that argument, why punish the responsible hobbyists with higher prices to compensate for the losses of the uninformed or unprepared ones?

If the seller in question has to eat a loss on that creature, it stands to reason that his pricing structure will provide for anticipated losses and guarantee claims. If he's got to lose $60 on that particular specimen, his overall pricing will be calculated based on his typical losses of this type, along with DOA, DAA and upkeep costs.

If a retailer of any description fails to price his wares to that sort of formula, he will continue to lose money and eventually go out of business. So assuming the entity in question has an ounce or two of business sense, the price of that coral was determined by those factors, as are all the other organisms in the shop. Everybody pays.

It's not exactly fair to the responsible hobbyist to have to pay for the ignorance of others, is it?

Jenn

 

[JennM]

LOL Race - in one post you tell us to quit bringing retail into it, then you bring it back in yourself

SuAsati - you make valid points also. Experiences will differ from retailer to retailer (or etailer)... and the manner in which any staffer deals with you also bodes into the equation.

I agree it's not right to be accusatory to a client about the demise of a creature if it's clear that they provided it with an appropriate environment and did everything possible to ensure its success. That's just bad business, period. This is where it gets tricky.

If customer X whose water tested fine, has an appropriate sized tank and such, still has a creature fail to thrive or perish, that's one thing, and absolutely worthy of working with a customer to resolve the issue to mutual satisfaction.

It's quite another thing for customer Y to purchase something that was totally inappropriate to begin with, placed it into putrid water, failed to feed it properly etc. Do you think it's fair to the retailer, or to other, responsible hobbyists, that everybody pay more because a no-fault guarantee forced the seller to make good on this?

I don't. That's why I do things the way I do, and the latter scenario very rarely crops up.

With the nature of etail, that type of procedure/policy is almost impossible to do. I understand the whys and wherefores of Race's policy - I just don't necessarily agree that this type of business model is a benefit to the living things we keep in this hobby.

I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on it, so it's kind of pointless to keep arguing it around and around in circles. Race does business his way, I do it mine, and I do my best to educate my customers and at the end of the day it's up to everyone to make up their own minds what is best.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

I agree with you Jenn. There will however always be places for the customer to obtain cheap livestock. They have a choice on how they spend their money.

At Liveaquaria.com we are anything but cheap and yes, guarantees, state of the art facilities, paying more for quality livestock, 40 employees etc all comes at a cost. That is why to date we do not run Liveaquaria.com as a money making entity.

Yes, the consumer in any entity pays for a guarantee but so does the company. The guarantee is really a form of insurance, you pay for it----- but it sure is nice when you need it.

 

[nosferatu51]

I see it this way. Personally, I've drawn an arbitrary line at about $100. If a fish costs more than that, I want some sort of guarantee on it. That guarantee could be the fact that he has been happy and healthy in the store for a good long while though, it does not necessarily imply a monetary guarantee. For instance, I just got an expensive Sargassum trigger about 2 months or so ago from my LFS. He had been there for 3 months though and thus I was sure he was healthy. Typically something expensive and beautiful (oddly the 2 often go hand in hand ) that I want will be sold quickly. Despite my knowing the owner of the store very well, I understand that he has a limit on his "on hold" time because he needs the tank space. It would seem rather unfair to him for me to ask him to hold a fish for a month in a tank by itself (to prevent him from getting sick as well). Thus, the easiest way to overcome this dilemma for me is to offer some sort of monetary guarantee. The owner knows me, has seen my tank, knows I am capable, etc etc. Therefore, in all likelihood, he could be confident that a death was most likely not my fault. I do question the ubiquity of a guarantee at times from the hobbyists' perspective because I think it can inspire a toss and hope mentality. On the other hand, I understand what Race is saying in that on the retail end I believe that the guarantee insinuates that the retailer must be keeping his stock healthy..
Is there a compromise between the 2 so that the hobbyist would not feel as though they can do as they please for the 1st 14 days, but the retailer could still have that guarantee in place which provides incentive for them to maintain healthy stock? For a local operation I think that question is easy. I believe that it would be much easier for my LFS owner to offer a hobbyist like me, that he knows well and knows my abilities, some form of guarantee while not offering it to Joe Noob who wants to toss a panther grouper, undulate trigger, and a hippo tang into his newly cycled 55g. This would represent his prerogative and make the guarantee valid for those customers whom he deems skilled enough to warrant it (I admittedly see the potential for abuse or misattribution here as well..... in addition to understanding how this can also undermine the fact that all his stock should be healthy enough).
Is this possible for an online operation that has no way of knowing their customers? Here I see a problem since Race has no way of knowing anything about us. Do we assume that ReefCentral members, on average, know their stuff better? I doubt it, I've seen some terrifying posts here and I am far from the high horse judgmental types that roam these forums. Do we send them a water sample prior to an order? That doesn't really help, it cost prohibitive, and says nothing about the environment itself... which I deem more important. Thus, since Race and his company have no means to assess our abilities as hobbyists, I believe the overarching guarantee is a necessity both for consumer confidence in ordering and for ensuring that those of us who are capable are covered from the problems that occasionally creep up.

 

[rbaker]

This is a sponsored forum.

That means that the sponsor has paid for the area of the board to allow them communicate with customers and potential customers. This is not a regular discussion forum. Please respect Dr. Foster's rules for posting.

JennM, please check your PM,s...

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10942006#post10942006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
We also purchased Flying Fish Express which was owned by a California Wholesaler. We then purchased Etropicals who was owned by a Florida Wholesaler/Importer.

Just wanted to educate those who were unaware. As you can see there has been an evolution here which includes retail, wholesale and the current day LFS founded, LiveAquaria.com.

This is not about retail vs etail.

Did you buy your retail store from someone else too or did you guys build that yourselves?

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10942105#post10942105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM
On the flipside of that argument, why punish the responsible hobbyists with higher prices to compensate for the losses of the uninformed or unprepared ones?

If the seller in question has to eat a loss on that creature, it stands to reason that his pricing structure will provide for anticipated losses and guarantee claims. If he's got to lose $60 on that particular specimen, his overall pricing will be calculated based on his typical losses of this type, along with DOA, DAA and upkeep costs.

If a retailer of any description fails to price his wares to that sort of formula, he will continue to lose money and eventually go out of business. So assuming the entity in question has an ounce or two of business sense, the price of that coral was determined by those factors, as are all the other organisms in the shop. Everybody pays.

It's not exactly fair to the responsible hobbyist to have to pay for the ignorance of others, is it?

Jenn

but LiveAquaria has a guarantee and still charges LESS then all the LFS around me who do NOT provide guarantees. its a no-brainer who I will buy my fish from.

 

[aquaticvet1]

We built our own retail store about 13 years ago. Added fish and coral about 7 years back.
Built the coral propagation facility in 2004 and added fish capability in 2006. Expanded fish and coral facility in early 2007. Total cost of facility about 1.1 million with cost of $5,000.00 a month in heat and electric. All Divers Den items are sold from this facility which can be viewed on the LiveAquaria.com site. Kevin Kohen did the most outstanding job in the design and development. I owe everything that I know about the hobby and industry to Kevin. He can even recite and spell the Latin name of every specimen--- which bewilders all of us.

 

[GreshamH]

Kevin is indeed a jewel in your crown Race

 

[Ontosrob]

Kevin is indeed an asset to F&S as well as the people that know him.
Coral and fish are more than a job for him, it is also his hobby. If you ever get a chance to talk to him, you soon realize his vast knowledge of reef keeping is surpassed by his passion and enjoyment for the hobby!

A post about F&S cannot be complete without also mentioning the retail store. Jody and her crew; Jessie and Aaron are the best! Over the years, I have shopped at LFS all over the Midwest. Some good and some bad, but none and I mean NONE compare to the Rhinelander store! The selection and prices are great, but the best part of the shopping experience are Jody and crew.

My wife and I make the 2 hour pilgrimage south (yes we live even further north than Rhinelander) every couple weeks! We can't believe our lucky stars!

Rob

 

[aquaticvet1]

Thank you Rob,
Marty Smith and I have been truly blessed with our employees. As you might guess from reading my posts, I am not an easy person to work with.

Everything that we stand for is a result of our employees. I do not know how to state it any differently. If it were not for them I would have quit a long time ago. They are the best and I always feel guilty when I get more credit than I deserve. They have never let me down, not in 25 years.

Thank you for the nice comments, we all appreciate it---Race

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10905469#post10905469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
The trend I have seen locally has actually been to reduce/remove their guarantees

Yup.
Why?
Because for every good reefer, there are LOT of bad (or very new) reefers. I spend a bit of time at one of the LFS's (and they have a 5 day guarantee), and I've seen and heard things that almost make me want to cry.

An example (and I am quoting as close as I can remember):
customer: "Hi - remember me? I bought this the day before yesterday." (puts bag with 2 dead fish and a really sad looking leather on the counter along with a receipt)
LFS: "Hey - yeah (looks at bag), what happened?"
customer: "They died - one was dead last night and this morning, the crab was nibbling on that one." (points)
LFS: "Hmmm." (picks up the bag) "The coral doesn't look so good - why did you bring it back in the same bag as the dead fish?"
customer: "I figered (yes, he said figered) it was going to die too. And I didn't have another bag. Can I get my money back - there's a guarantee, right?"
LFS: "Yah, there is. (looks at the fish) What did you do when you got them home?".
customer: "I put them in my tank. What do you mean what did I do?"
LFS: "How long did you acclimate them?"
customer: "Acclimate? I didn't do anything like that to them - I put them straight in my tank!" (you could tell he had no idea what acclimate meant, and thought the store owner was saying he did something bad to them (other then not acclimating them??? )
LFS: "So you got them home and opened the bag and placed them in your tank? Did you at least float the bag first?"
customer: "Yah - I floated the bag - I'm not stupid you know! These died and I'd like my money back!"
LFS: "After you floated the bag, what did you do?"
customer: "I told you! I put them in the tank - and I didn't mess with them!"

At this point, the LFS guy tries to explain that the animals probably died (and were dying in the case of the coral) because they need to be acclimated, and explains acclimation to the guy. As the LFS guy is talking to him about proper acclimation procedures, you can tell the guy is really not listening, but he can tell this isn't going the way he hoped and he is getting madder and madder by the second, and before the LFS guy can even finish, the guy causes a scene, calling the guy names, accusing them of selling sick fish, etc, etc.

The LFS finally agreed to give the guy his money on the fishes, to try to get the guy to calm down, as they were dead (2 at $35 a pop), but he handed the bag back to the guy and told him that since the coral wasn't dead yet, and that the guy had admitted to not acclimating the poor things, he would not give him his money back on the coral. The guy threw the bag across the store as he left.

The LFS lost $75 (and had to clean up a mess) because this guy didn't bother to learn enough about his new hobby. Is this right?

And I see stuff like that every so often, and am told that something akin happens there one a week or so. The LFS has stopped selling to several locals because all they do is kill the animals and then whine about it. Nothing has been as dramatic or as truly pathetic as that exchange was (as far as I know), but still.


My LFS has enough problems competing with online companies, and customers who just don't know what they are doing, that if they tried to offer a two week guarantee, they'd go broke in a year. I imagine that a good number of LFS's are in the same boat - they make enough to order new stock, pay the bills and pay the employee's, but there isn't much left over in profit, you know?

LFS's don't get the massive breaks on livestock that a company like LiveAquaria does, because they don't have the purchasing power. How much livestock does a company like Liveaquaria order a week? Mine orders anywhere from $150-$350 a week, sometimes more, sometimes less, but that seems to be about what they order in a week. How many thousands of dollars does LiveAquaria make a week on marine fish and coral sales? Bet you it is an order of magnitude above what the average LFS makes.

Sure - it is easy to offer make a challenge like this - Liveaquaria has nothing to loose and lots to gain by doing so (since they been offering the 14 day guarantee for quite a while now), and it seems sort of underhanded to me.

The marine hobby is supposedly the largest grow segment of the pet hobby industry. Education is not, sadly. Unfortunately, not everyone bothers to learn what they should - many just start buying stuff, not bothering to actually find out what the animals need to do well, or need to at least not die. The reef hobby has a learning curve that not everyone can negotiate - should the small time LFS try to do as Liveaquaria says, many would fold in pretty short order, I'd think. Sort of like when Wal-mart moves into a new town, and slowly, the competing small businesses that were just hanging on, start to die off. Is this wrong? Right? I dunno, but I do know that Wal-mart doesn't challenge local competitors to match their general 30 day guarantee...

To me, it seems sort of like a strongman challenging a invalid to an arm wrestling match.

It might be a completely different matter if Marine Hobbyists had to get a license for keeping marine life (like with certain exotic animals), that would let the retailer know that there was a more than reasonable chance that the customer knew at least the basics, but there isn't anything like that, so I just can't see how Liveaquaria can make a challenge like this. It is a noble idea, but very impractical, IMO.

Granted. it is great that Liveaquaria is doing well enough to offer a 14 day guarantee, but to say that all stores need to do so, based on some arbitrary judgement (by a competitive company no less), is just not right.

And before people jump me, I will freely admit that I'm not a Liveaquaria fan - I have had an issue with their ordering system (and the way they handled the situation at the beginning of the problems) that left a bad taste in my mouth, though they did, finally, take care of the situation in the end. But it wouldn't have mattered what large marine animal company issued this challenge - I'd have posted the same thing in reply.

Just my two cents...

 

[sidd129]

The LFS lost $75 (and had to clean up a mess) because this guy didn't bother to learn enough about his new hobby.

How much would it cost this lfs to print our acclimation instructions and do water testing compared to refunds? I know that would not be an answer to all the problems, but maybe it could save that lfs a little money. Can you suggest this to them?
I think that if 14 days become more common that lfs will care more about what a person knows.

Sorry if I repeated anything I read this thread a while ago.

 

[DFS]

Insane Reefer,

The scenario you have described is really unfortunate. I had worked in a retail aquarium store for over eight years and can tell you that educating the customer is as important as providing quality livestock, so that common mistakes often made by new hobbyists can be avoided as much as possible. If customers do not know how to properly acclimate animals to their new homes, or have not been informed on how to do so, then I think that problems such as this will occur more and more.

The goal in encouraging others to offer extended guarantees for their livestock is to raise the bar of supporting quality livestock suppliers. There are far too many transshippers and importers who are supplying sub standard livestock from questionable sources, and we need to change practice all together. A good retail store in my opinion, with a good network of quality suppliers, trained staff that can care of the livestock properly and provide the proper information on husbandry and even acclimation of the animals to their customers can offer this guarantee as well.

Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith