In-Line System Setup

[zeeter]

This week I'll be setting up all of my clown tanks on the same system. I was curious about some things.

1. Most books say that the larger clowns need 40gl or more - yet most people I've talked with say that they keep clarkiis and maroons and their ilk in 20gl. What is the general consensus here? Currenly most of my clowns are in 29gl with a couple of sets in 20 gl and one in a 10gl (ocellaris).
1A. And if you do use 20 are you using 20L or 20H?
1B. And does this question make a difference using a stand alone tank versus one in a system? In other words - do they need 40gl in stand alone but only 20 gl in an adequate system?

2. Can your standard 20L or 20H tank be drilled? They don't usually advertise themselves as tempered or regular glass.

3. This is a long shot: everything I've looked into says to use the water from the broodstock tank for the fry. What if I were to put the 5 or 10 gl tanks or buckets used for larvae in line with the broodstock tanks? It would help with water changes as I'd just need to vacuum the bottom of those tanks. Puting a panty-hose thing or something over the overflow will prevent escape. The system will have the added benefit of including all three filtration methods. The plan would be to put them in line and open the valve just slightly so that the puts an extremely gentle flow into the tank. The water would be aimed at the bottom of the tank in hopes to keep the rotifers suspended.

4. It seems that the growing trend is to ditch the whole Nanno idea in favor of enriched rotifer pre-made diets. More fragile, but certainly easier than keeping a nanno culture going since they die even faster than rotifers. Is that the case with you folks?

5. Last question - promise! My plan is to use one tank as my biological filtration tank. I'll be putting all of the live rock currently in the tanks into that tank, along with a sand bed (shallow or deep?). This will leave nothing but a flower pot in each tank. Would they need anything more than that? And do you veterans keep any anemones in your tanks?

 

[jake levi]

???s

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You will get a lot of responses so I will be brief:

I have at least one air stone in the tanks whatever the size, tens 1, and 20 or more 2 and up for the others.

I havent dumped my nanno, just added more in fact, have many cultures, always looking for more. But enriched rottis always, along with enriched artemia. Never feed them empty stomached.

Anything that adds gallonage to the system is good.

The larger the tank the better the larger clowns will get along, make sure there are refuge places whatever the size.

Having a tank for a biofilter is fine, I also have a deep sand bed in my filter, actually arragonite and crushed coral. And am adding an ATS right over it.

I think bare bottom tanks are easier to clean, but liverock in each is good too along with the flower pot. As far as I am concerned you can never have too much liverock.

good luck, this is a great resource, use it.

 

[zeeter]

Thanks - my liverock is somewhat limited to around two pieces per tank. I have around 14 live, fairly large, mature pieces to use and I could possibly commandeer a couple of pieces from my main display tank. I'd probably keep all of this rock plus the sand in the same tank with no fish in it. Bare bottom is definitely easier than sandy bottom. It's the difference between vacuuming the bottom and just siphoning up the bottom. I hadn't planned on keeping any LR in the fish tanks at all. Just a flower pot. Not that I'm married to that idea - just that it's what my original plan was.

So they really need the larger tanks, huh? My GSM's haven't moved six inches from their home in three months. I guess once they're mated maybe it doesn't matter as much?

 

[Luis A M]

You will get many different aproaches,and in the end it will be your call!:smokin:
As far as mine:
1-the larger the better,but if needed,all clown pairs can be housed in a ten g,on line.
2-yes
3-use new ASW for larvae.Open valve after day 7th.
4-Yes
5-bare tank with flowerpot,no anemone.

 

[duncaholic]

I am no veteran, but have had some success. The only thing I would say is that you can easily make your own "live rock" so that you will have all you need and in the shapes you desire. plenty of videos on the web. Most people call it aragocrete I think. My WC PNG's are currently happily mating in a system stocked exclusively with rock I made.

 

[zeeter]

So another question - hopefully my last: Would it be best to set this up using rubber tubing at first rather than PVC? I know I'll want to go PVC at some point, but since this is the first time doing this I was thinking that perhaps the tubing would give me a little more wiggle room since it's flexible. I'm going to put my plans up here in a little while.

 

[jake levi]

flexible vs fixed

flexible vs fixed

The only place I want fixed is a manifold above tanks that brings water to the tanks and a drain pipe that collects water from the tanks, I like flexible from the tank to the drain pipe, saves a lot of headaches .

Of course tight bands, connectors etc at joints.

 

[zeeter]

<snip>
3-use new ASW for larvae.Open valve after day 7th.
<snip>

Really? Everything I heard was to use broodstock water at first and replace it with new water. You're saying to start with new water? Not disagreeing - just never heard that before. I guess that would prevent me from keeping these tanks in-line for around a week.

 

[DeathWish302]

1. 40-50gal for GSM/Tomato pair and 10gal for the Onyx Percs and Orange/Black Occy. You should be fine with 20 & 29gal, but I think if you daisy-chain these smaller tanks you will be much happier with the reduced labor and maintenance. You will also limit spikes in chemistry when having this larger volume.

2. I've drilled about every 20L I've ever owned. The last was probably more than 7 years ago. Unless All-Glass has changed their practices, you should be fine but check with the manufacturer. A simple call to their 800 number will answer your question.

3. I add only water from the broodstock tank for my eggs and fry, but would not connect this to the broodstock loop. These guys make a huge mess even with daily cleanings. I can keep a QT/hospital tank at 0 ammonia/nitrite with little effort sucking up the build-up every third day, but has found the fry tank is near impossible to keep at undetectable levels unless it receives daily sweepings and a 25% WC. I personally prefer to segregate the broodstock form the fry.

4. I have heard from other's and read Melev's problems, but luckily have never had this problem. I've had more problems with my rotifiers crashing than the phyto. I do my phyto a bit different than most. My 2 ltrs sit in front of a South facing window and receive only natural light with a shake every evening and morning. I have never bought into the specialized fertilizers and only use Miracle Gro liquid after reading melev's write-up. Worked like a charm and costs a fraction of the other's.

5. I prefer the natural look and every tank is setup as either a lagoon, sps DT, anemone tank, mushroom kingdom.... You get the point. I hate the boring 'look at my beautiful fish in a Wally World-style bare tank, it looks so natural with the flower pot' approach. Hey, if that's for you...shoot. Searching for eggs at first was a pain, but after that it is sooo much more natural and enjoyable to view. I don't have anemones in all tank due to sps or inadequate lighting in the lagoon, but I do have an E.Quadricolor/Maxi-Min Carpet specific tier. This tier is currently vacant awaiting a Chrysogaster/Thiellei pairing if I ever find some....

One of my LFS has their spawning Clarkii clowns in their LR tank. It's just wild to see people walk over and look at some LR and then jump back and see that there is a spawning Clarkii pair on the end at the bottom diving into their anemone with eggs swaying on the overhanging rock. I'd trade my lagoon to have that tank with that view. This shows that really these little finned friends of ours will make-do with nearly any situation if you can handle looking at your creation.

HTH and wasn't too long....

 

[zeeter]

Thanks for the info - I'll keep the fry tanks offline and put them in line after metamorphosis. I was just thinking that using the filtration of the main system might be beneficial to the fry, but not at the expense of the broodstock tanks.

Speaking of Clarkiis, I had two rather large ones that I bought a month or so ago. There was never a problem until last week when the larger of the two began relentlessly chasing the smaller one. I quickly got her out. Coincidentally, the weekend before I had purchased a very small - about an inch and a half - clarkii from a local store. They told me it was a sebae but I didn't want to insult their intelligence and just went along with it.

Anyway, I put this smaller one in with the original clarkii that was getting chased and now he's getting chased around. Just dashes to keep the little one in its place, but alarming still. The little one will not submit even though the larger one is 3X it's size. Or the bigger one won't give it time to submit. I see the little one wander over now and then in a non-aggressive way only to get chased away.

Wondering what the heck is going on here. I sincerely doubt that the little one has changed female as the LFS had just gotten a bunch the day before and this was the last one, and it was only in one of my tanks for around three days.

BTW: way to fly your Flyers colors up in MI!

 

[DeathWish302]

Thanks for the info - I'll keep the fry tanks offline and put them in line after metamorphosis. I was just thinking that using the filtration of the main system might be beneficial to the fry, but not at the expense of the broodstock tanks.

Speaking of Clarkiis, I had two rather large ones that I bought a month or so ago. There was never a problem until last week when the larger of the two began relentlessly chasing the smaller one. I quickly got her out. Coincidentally, the weekend before I had purchased a very small - about an inch and a half - clarkii from a local store. They told me it was a sebae but I didn't want to insult their intelligence and just went along with it.

Anyway, I put this smaller one in with the original clarkii that was getting chased and now he's getting chased around. Just dashes to keep the little one in its place, but alarming still. The little one will not submit even though the larger one is 3X it's size. Or the bigger one won't give it time to submit. I see the little one wander over now and then in a non-aggressive way only to get chased away.

Wondering what the heck is going on here. I sincerely doubt that the little one has changed female as the LFS had just gotten a bunch the day before and this was the last one, and it was only in one of my tanks for around three days.

BTW: way to fly your Flyers colors up in MI!

Well, unfortunately I had a Tomato female that was picky with men. My male went carpet surfing one night after they had been paired for 4 years from about 4months old. Bummer! I tried pairing 3 juvies before she finally accepted one. She would leave my hand alone, but was vicious with the juvies I introduced. This happened even with her spawning mate. Unfortunately lost that female in a aquascaping accident.....

So, the male then has quickly passed the size of his previous mate. I introduced a new ~5month old juvie and the fury started with her.... She tags my hand EVERY time I stick my hand in the tank. She chases the poor little one around after he shakes his little heart out. They cuddle in their cove at night, so I know all is good.

I think it really depends on the temperment of the fish. This Tomato is by far the most aggressive fish I have had ever. It even has ripped the claws off a Mithrax crab before b/c it snagged a pc of mysis she wanted. I have a GSM pair that will swim away as soon as my hand enters their lagoon. I can even grab the egg tile with both of them scooting away. IME GSM are puppy dogs and I have never seen the aggression noted by almost all other owners' and literature.

As for the Philly boys, I was stationed for work out in PA for 4 years and the team just clicked with me. I've been a 'anybody but the DeadWings' since I started watching hockey. They are my pinnacle of disgust.

 

[zeeter]

Here is the plan for my tank setup. The platform is 48x96 or 4ft x 8 ft. It calls for a plywood bottom board covered with a small water resistant board above it. Then the upper platform (same board configuration) will be supported by sixteen sets of three-high (8*3=24" high) cinder blocks, as noted by the brownish blocks on the table. These blocks are set up so that they support all four corners of each tank.

Thus far I haven't decided whether I want to plumb everything between the two sets of boards or just put everything on top. I'm leaning towards on top since it will be easier to maintain if there's a problem. I'll have 5" between each row which should be plenty.

At the moment the tank configuration is 3 20 gl tanks on the first row length-wise, and two rows of 3-29 gl tanks. I had thought of using a 40 breeder as the sump. Then another 29 as the live rock/sand tank which would be set up differently on a traditional metal frame. Then I started thinking that maybe a stock tank would be a good idea. It would sit lower than the breeder and hold a bit more water. Plus the surface area is larger allowing for better air contact and also room for equipment. The one I'm looking at is a 50 gl Rubbermaid.

The pump I'm looking at is iffy - Flotec 4/10 Horsepower, 3000 GPH Waterfall Utility Pump (look at it at home depot). Going by the traditional 10X water movement rule it will be about right as I'll have about 275 total volume with only around two feet of head. The live rock/sand tank will run on a different system. Only problem is that I don't know if the Flotec can handle salt water. Hard to pass up a 3000 gph pump for $129, though.

Plumbing will be 3/4" overflows into 1.5" PVC pipes - one pipe for each row. Not sure if I should join these at the sump or just let them individually flow into it. If I want to use mechanical and chemical filtration at any time it might be better to join them.

Return will be 1/2" rubber tubing split for each row and using ball valves for each tank and a check valve on each row.

I've seen other cinder block setups and they all use 4X4's above the cinder blocks. I'm thinking that if I support all four corners directly with the blocks and use about an inch of wood as a platform between the blocks and the tanks it should distribute the weight satisfactorily.

Thoughts?

 

[Luis A M]

Really? Everything I heard was to use broodstock water at first and replace it with new water. You're saying to start with new water? Not disagreeing - just never heard that before. I guess that would prevent me from keeping these tanks in-line for around a week.

As I say,you will hear different things...
In my book,parent tank´s water is the worst choice in terms of chemical and bacteriological quality,such an idea probably comes from the FW field.New ASW is the best possible medium a larva could receive.And embryos within the eggs can take large differences in water parameters without harm.

 

[zeeter]

<snip>New ASW is the best possible medium a larva could receive.And embryos within the eggs can take large differences in water parameters without harm.

Not to be thick here, but are you suggesting that collected larvae do better in new ASW and eggs tolerate it? If that is the case would the opposite be true in that eggs do better in broodstock water or am I overthinking this.

BTW - I'm only four months into breeding and I haven't even seen egg #1 yet, so it's good to get all of these misconceptions I might have out of the way before these clowns start getting down to busy time.

 

[jake levi]

habitat

habitat

Hi Zeeter

It isnt so much misperceptions as it is that there is a huge amount of 'information' floating around out there that isnt necessarily so, Luis is right on. He is the best source here.

Think of it in terms of a hospital maternity ward, everything is antiseptic, and keep nasties away at all costs from vulnerable newborns.

New ASW is the best medium for larvae and eggs. You can add the other stuff that YOU want later, phyto etc.

Your new system sounds neat, keep us posted and add some pics when you can.

Have you considered an ATS?

 

[zeeter]

Ats?

 

[DeathWish302]

Not to be thick here, but are you suggesting that collected larvae do better in new ASW and eggs tolerate it? If that is the case would the opposite be true in that eggs do better in broodstock water or am I overthinking this.

I would have to say I have had far higher egg casualty and die-off from trying to move the eggs to my hatching station (10gal filled to about 3-5gal) and then dunking them in 24hr old, new make-up water heated to the same temp as the main system. I have seen no difference from adding 1-3gal from the main system and slowly (2-4hrs) topping off to desired level with new water. If your acclimating your eggs in the hatching station with new water I figured it's not worth the hassle trying to keep 'nasties' out.

All WC is done with fresh water from the Brute can, but even then you have to question the ability to maintain a Zero bacteria, virus & pathogen free water make-up bin unless you mix fresh SW from sterilized (boiled) RO/DI water and mix and our this water directly into the tank.

I'm not saying jake or luis are not correct on cleanliness, but there comes a limit to what is worth controlling and what you can control. I sterilize my hatching station after every meta with a few TBSP of bleach and circulate this with the heater and the foam biological filter system in the mix. Sterile equipment is the only safeguard we have in this hobby. I sterilize my QT and hospital tanks the same way.

As for egg culturing, as soon as you put a clay pot, tile, brick, whatever medium in the broodstock tank this will be a vehicle for bacteria, virus strains & potentially pathogens that do not affect the parents but can be deadly to the fry. You cannot sterilize this medium, so why sweat it. You've aready introduced it from that medium into your hatching station. I have yet to have a problem from disease (knock on alot of wood) in my main system tier and plan to keep it that way. This may be the reason I have not had problems with poor survival numbers with using broodstock water to start.

I know Joyce stated she made fresh water and stored it in bleach bottle and such to limit exposure to these pathogens. I think the only way to limit exposure to any pathogens is sterile water mixed exactly before you use it. I have found this not reasonable or resulting in any better percentage of eggs making it to meta IME.

 

[DeathWish302]

Ats?

Alage Turf Scrubber - An absolutely amazing method of stripping nutrients from fresh & SW bodies of water. You'll find people on both sides of the fence for ATS systems. I prefer biological methods over high-tech, high-$$$ methods whenever possible, so ATS fits right up my alley. I'll let you search that topic out and you can PM me if you have questions.

 

[zeeter]

Thanks. I'll google it.

 

[reefstew]

Put your clownfish eggs from a flower pot in new salt water of the same temperture. You will get good results.