is acan rare and expensive?

[wpar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6970691#post6970691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stevedola

ps-feel free to challenge the experts and their opinions...dont accept solely on their reputation.

Yes, consult as many sources and 'experts' as you can. Do not blindly accept the word of any person. With that said, it must also be stated that all views/opinions are NOT created equal.

Do Calfo and Borneman have a monetary axe to grind on this issue? Do their educational backgrounds and years of involvement with many aspects of the hobby/business provide them with a perspective that few hobbyist can achieve?

Do the people who call the price of acans a supply and demand issue have any particular economics expertise/training? Do some of these people have a vested interest in the acan market? Where are their references/sources?

Answer all of these questions and come to your own conclusions. Never blindly take someone's view as fact, but always consider the source.

Stepping off my soapbox-
Bill

 

[marillion]

I think it's quite simple...it's still supply and demand.

Lords may be everywhere now, but when you look at the fact that EVERYONE has this :

and this :

...and very little people have this :

or this :

...then you can tell which ones are $4/polyp and which ones are $400/polyp.

It's still supply and demand, though the total amount of "lordhowensis" out there has increased exponentially. The best looking examples of any given coral will always command a higher price.

Peace,

Chip

 

[stevedola]

thats what i was saying chip before-just like any other coral the rarer the coloration the more expensive and difficult it is to find.

 

[marillion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6975048#post6975048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stevedola
thats what i was saying chip before-just like any other coral the rarer the coloration the more expensive and difficult it is to find.

Yup, exactly. I just don't like people saying, "Oh well, it's a lord and they're everywhere now so anything over $4/polyp is a ripoff."

Peace,

Chip

 

[RandyO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6972084#post6972084 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wpar
Yes, consult as many sources and 'experts' as you can. Do not blindly accept the word of any person. With that said, it must also be stated that all views/opinions are NOT created equal.

Do Calfo and Borneman have a monetary axe to grind on this issue? Do their educational backgrounds and years of involvement with many aspects of the hobby/business provide them with a perspective that few hobbyist can achieve?

Do the people who call the price of acans a supply and demand issue have any particular economics expertise/training? Do some of these people have a vested interest in the acan market? Where are their references/sources?

Answer all of these questions and come to your own conclusions. Never blindly take someone's view as fact, but always consider the source.

Stepping off my soapbox-
Bill

I don't think you need to have economics expertise or training to understand "Supply and Demand". It's quit simple. A lot of people want a product that is hard to find. High price.
A lot of product and only a few people looking to buy it, low price.

I think that the people that were selling Acans had a better understanding of this law because they had 100 people fighting for the same frag. It makes it real easy to see. Very little product with large demand.

Of course things have changed now and lords can be had by ordering them through wholesalers. Now it's just the really crazy color morphs that are fetching top dollar since there are not that many of those morphs around.

In my opinion, it was a simple matter of only a few people in the US had them, and fewer people were actually fragging and selling them. That's what created a market for them.

Or, you can believe that a ring of collectors that owned or sold Acan lords conspired together somehow to create a false market, according to that article linked above.

What's more believable? Not a lot of product, with a large amount of people wanting it.
Or, a conspiracy to control all incoming Acans, with only a select few individuals getting them, and then setting the prices way high, and forcing the general public to pay them by showing off how beautiful they are. That would mean the LA wholesalers and transhippers must have been in on it too since the general public could not get them though them. The conspiracy must even go to the Islands or origin.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall while those masterminds got together to plan this elaborate conspiracy.

Or maybe I was there.

 

[RandyO]

If you really want to know how it started, there's an easy way to find out. Do a search for "Acanthastrea" here on RC and specify the timing. "From the Beginning"

It will take you back a few years, but start there and read those threads.

 

[wpar]

[i by RandyO [/i]
I don't think you need to have economics expertise or training to understand "Supply and Demand". It's quit simple. A lot of people want a product that is hard to find. High price.
A lot of product and only a few people looking to buy it, low price.

I think that the people that were selling Acans had a better understanding of this law because they had 100 people fighting for the same frag. It makes it real easy to see. Very little product with large demand.

Of course things have changed now and lords can be had by ordering them through wholesalers. Now it's just the really crazy color morphs that are fetching top dollar since there are not that many of those morphs around.

In my opinion, it was a simple matter of only a few people in the US had them, and fewer people were actually fragging and selling them. That's what created a market for them.

Or, you can believe that a ring of collectors that owned or sold Acan lords conspired together somehow to create a false market, according to that article linked above.

What's more believable? Not a lot of product, with a large amount of people wanting it.
Or, a conspiracy to control all incoming Acans, with only a select few individuals getting them, and then setting the prices way high, and forcing the general public to pay them by showing off how beautiful they are. That would mean the LA wholesalers and transhippers must have been in on it too since the general public could not get them though them. The conspiracy must even go to the Islands or origin.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall while those masterminds got together to plan this elaborate conspiracy.

Or maybe I was there.

Randy,

As I mentioned above, we have very different views of what has transpired in the acan market over the last few years. Your notion of supply and demand thus neglects to mention one of its primary tenets - fair market price. This fair market price is one determined by the MARKET through truthful advertising of a legal product. A truly efficient market results in a fair market price. Do you believe that markets can't be manipulated? Enron is a recent and large example of market manipulation. If a market of that scale can be manipulated, exactly how hard would it be to artificially drive up the price of acans?

You also choose to call any view other than supply and demand a conspiracy theory - an unfortunate label that only deflects away from reasonable discourse. How believable is the view that all businessmen are honest or that some people wouldn't do whatever they could to make as much profit off of a product as possible?

The term 'rare' is not the same as uncommon in the US. The majority of ebay auctions continue to use rare in their descriptions. If rare only means that you haven't seen it before, what is the value of the term? Call it what you might, I call it misleading marketing hype. In this thread, we even see 'rare' color morph.

Last August, Calfo posted the following:
"I personally have yet to see any of the big LA wholesalers offer any Acan for more than $69. And that was for an XXL with easily $30 or more in actual freight (water/weight) charge built into it.

What the third, fourth or fifth reseller does to prices is beside this point.

As for the price-fixing... again (as per article and other posts), I have personally seen shared IMs, PMs and e-mails detailing clear price fixing and collusion between some very notable RC traders. I'm surprised this surprises you of all people in particular.

A number of industry consultants and advisers have also been contacted in the last year by Federal authorities re: poached scleractinia.

I for one have seen photographs of corals in shipments secured by current and former (banned) RC Acan collectors/sellers, among other people.

The issue is real, if you can take my word for it."


You participated in that thread and did not question him about price fixing. Apparently, you accepted that possibility then. So, I am curious as to why you are now so certain that it's all 'supply and demand.'

I would also like to point out that none of this should, in any way, be construed as a criticism of anyone that has purchased acans. I like and own acans. Everyone has the right to purchase whatever they want. If you have the money and want to purchase a truly rare coral, go for it (although, if its truly rare you should probably do some penance time in the Responsible Reefkeeping Forum )

Bill

 

[RandyO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6992188#post6992188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wpar
Randy,

As I mentioned above, we have very different views of what has transpired in the acan market over the last few years. Your notion of supply and demand thus neglects to mention one of its primary tenets - fair market price. This fair market price is one determined by the MARKET through truthful advertising of a legal product. A truly efficient market results in a fair market price. Do you believe that markets can't be manipulated? Enron is a recent and large example of market manipulation. If a market of that scale can be manipulated, exactly how hard would it be to artificially drive up the price of acans?

You also choose to call any view other than supply and demand a conspiracy theory - an unfortunate label that only deflects away from reasonable discourse. How believable is the view that all businessmen are honest or that some people wouldn't do whatever they could to make as much profit off of a product as possible?

The term 'rare' is not the same as uncommon in the US. The majority of ebay auctions continue to use rare in their descriptions. If rare only means that you haven't seen it before, what is the value of the term? Call it what you might, I call it misleading marketing hype. In this thread, we even see 'rare' color morph.

Last August, Calfo posted the following:
"I personally have yet to see any of the big LA wholesalers offer any Acan for more than $69. And that was for an XXL with easily $30 or more in actual freight (water/weight) charge built into it.

What the third, fourth or fifth reseller does to prices is beside this point.

As for the price-fixing... again (as per article and other posts), I have personally seen shared IMs, PMs and e-mails detailing clear price fixing and collusion between some very notable RC traders. I'm surprised this surprises you of all people in particular.

A number of industry consultants and advisers have also been contacted in the last year by Federal authorities re: poached scleractinia.

I for one have seen photographs of corals in shipments secured by current and former (banned) RC Acan collectors/sellers, among other people.

The issue is real, if you can take my word for it."


You participated in that thread and did not question him about price fixing. Apparently, you accepted that possibility then. So, I am curious as to why you are now so certain that it's all 'supply and demand.'

I would also like to point out that none of this should, in any way, be construed as a criticism of anyone that has purchased acans. I like and own acans. Everyone has the right to purchase whatever they want. If you have the money and want to purchase a truly rare coral, go for it (although, if its truly rare you should probably do some penance time in the Responsible Reefkeeping Forum )

Bill

Wow,
That's a lot of stuff to address. I'll start with this.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6992188#post6992188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wpar
Randy,

Do you believe that markets can't be manipulated? Enron is a recent and large example of market manipulation. If a market of that scale can be manipulated, exactly how hard would it be to artificially drive up the price of acans?

Sure, markets can be manipulated. I won't pretend to know about economics, but one thing I know a lot about is "The Acan Craze"
That leads into your next question about how hard it would be to artificially drive up the price of Acans.
In my opinion, the prices of Acanthastrea lordhowensis type corals was not manipulated. Here's my story.

In late 2002 a friend had asked me to try and sell some of his corals. He wasn't sure what it was exactly, but thought it was either Acanthastrea or Micromussa. It was a coral that he had grown out from frags over the course of a few years. As the coral grew into a colony, he broke it up to make more of them. I had gotten a piece of this coral from him in late 2001. But anyway,
I had asked him how much he would like to sell frags of it for. He replied that they (he had two color morphs) were the only ones he'd ever come across. He said, "50.00 per polyp. They grow pretty fast." I thought that was kind of high, but I said OK and that I would try to sell them on Reef Central for him. This guy did not own a computer, and still doesn't. It didn't take long to sell the 3 or 4 frags he had made. They went to a few guys in the Virginia/Maryland area. My friend was inspired to make more frags, and in early February, 2003 I posted a thread in the selling forum to sell more of his frags. I also heard back from one of the guys that purchased a couple of the first batch of frags, with reports of even greater growth when the corals are fed meaty foods.
Here's the link
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=310301

If you do a search on Reef Central for Acanthastrea, and start at the beginning, you won't find many people selling frags of this type of coral. With a non existent market for them, they sold for a premium price. There were none for sale on E-tailers sites calling them rare, or on Ebay, yet one variety sold out in a couple weeks.

Do you think this was a manipulated sale of these corals?


That's all I have time for right now. I'll reply to some of your other questions later tonight.

I'm also curious about the title you gave yourself as Newbie. To know as much as you do about me, and the old threads I've posted on, you must have been around longer than your info leads us to believe. You almost have an "Anthony Calfo" sound to you.
Most likely it's just your views that you have in common.

 

[wpar]

Comments inline:

"I'm also curious about the title you gave yourself as Newbie."

I will always consider myself a newbie in this hobby. I suppose I might be a 'somewhat experienced newbie' and someday I might be an 'experienced newbie' but there is too much to learn to ever call myself anything else.

"To know as much as you do about me, and the old threads I've posted on, you must have been around longer than your info leads us to believe."

Actually, this comes about because I have followed your advice and researched and read most of the old threads. Be careful, this almost sounds like one of those conspiracy folks.

"You almost have an "Anthony Calfo" sound to you."

Why is it that I get the feeling that this wasn't intended as a compliment? :eek1:

I mentioned several posts ago that you and I are unlikely to change our views. I got involved because people were tossing around terms like 'rare' and 'supply and demand.' As previously stated, true supply and demand economics presupposes an efficient market, which requires truthful advertising. How can one say that a coral is rare or is a rare color morph? In the case of acan lords I don't believe that one can even begin to think about such terms without extensive dive time off Lord Howe Island. (I won't even comment on the absurdity of calling something produced by nature a 'limited edition' or anthropomorphising corals with names such as 'Bill's Nuclear acan')

If someone wants to purchase ANY coral that is called 'rare' or one that is given a name, that's fine as long as they fully understand that some/most of the purchase price is paying for the associated marketing hype. My hope is that every coral purchase is made simply because the buyer truly appreciates the coral rather than any hype.

Bill

 

[RandyO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7014450#post7014450 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wpar

"You almost have an "Anthony Calfo" sound to you."

Why is it that I get the feeling that this wasn't intended as a compliment? :eek1:


Bill

Actually, it was a compliment. I consider Anthony a very knowledgeable person in the industry, and though my views my be different from his, I respect him very much as a Reef keeper and a person.

Your responses have a particular ring to them, much like Anthony's did.

In no way was it an insult.

Hopefully no hard feelings.

 

[wpar]

Randy,

No insult taken. I hope all of our posts have been taken as a respectful disagreement - I know that's how I have viewed your posts.

Although we disagree about what may or may have not transpired in the acan market, I suspect that we very much agree on the goal of minimizing marketing hype and having all coral purchases made out of a deep appreciation for the involved coral.

Bill

 

[xdusty6920]

i know this is kinda off topic but what happened to calfo. havent seen him posting here any lately.

 

[marillion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7017983#post7017983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xdusty6920
i know this is kinda off topic but what happened to calfo. havent seen him posting here any lately.

Errr...where ya been?

Peace,

Chip

 

[xdusty6920]

obviously not paying too much attention lol. didnt that forum used to be all things salty with anthony calfo

 

[baja_01]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7014450#post7014450 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wpar
How can one say that a coral is rare or is a rare color morph? In the case of acan lords I don't believe that one can even begin to think about such terms without extensive dive time off Lord Howe Island.

If anything, seeing acans at Lord Howe Island would only enforce their "rarity" in the US as it is VERY illegal to export coral from Australia.

I don't pretend to know what happened early in the acan market. From my point of view, 2-3 people managed to get some amazing connections and got some very difficult to find colors into the US. People got envious and they kept secret. There is nothing we can do but speculate as to what happened.

I still think the acan craze was a very good thing for reefkeeping. It put lps on the map, brought in many cool corals and fostered widespread propagation.

 

[RandyO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7017983#post7017983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xdusty6920
i know this is kinda off topic but what happened to calfo. havent seen him posting here any lately.

I believe Anthony has moved on to other endeavors.

 

[xdusty6920]

thanks randy. all i know about it is he has completely left the site and did it by choice. as to why or if he plans to return......im clueless.

 

[majesticangelfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6894034#post6894034 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RandyO
When people talk about rare, they typically refer to the trade and not the wild. Location also affects how common a coral is. Duncanopsammia is found in most Aussie tanks, but very hard to find here in the US. I'd call this coral rare, but an Aussie might call it common.

Your right, Many reefers down here have Duncanopsammia, its always in the LFS (for a good price), and Acan. slightly less common, but still cheap (compared to US prices).

Here are two of mine, both under $30 AUD each.

Duncanopsammia

Acan. Lord.

Cheers