Is ich always there?

[Sk8r]

Posing a question here...with a specific instance:

It's a 'given' in the community that if you have had a fish with ich, ich is in the tank. Accepted.

It is believed that if you take all fish out and treat in qt, and let the tank lie fallow for 6 weeks, the ich parasite will die out and you will have an ich-free tank. Accepted.

Here's where the question comes in. Suppose you have had ich in the tank, removed the afflicted fish, but left the others [gobies, blennies, chromis, dragonets, all but one ich-resistent] in the tank. Suppose none of them demonstrated any ich---if you have never seen ich again, within 6 months, that's months, not weeks---have the ich parasites died out? Is this now an ich-free tank?

Suppose you brought in an ich-susceptive fish AND qt'ed that particular fish to be sure he was ich-free. Would it be likely to contract it in this tank?

Discussion?

 

[cristhiam]

This is what happened in my tank: I had a bad outbreak of ich that killed all my 2+ year old fish when I introduced a PBT in two weeks had ick. Only one damsel survived and never showed any ich. I left the tank follow 6 weeks with the damsel. I introduced a cowfish (without QT), no signs of ich for a week, introduced 3 clowns, cowfish showed ick then and then one week later clows with ich, no signs of ich on the damsel still. Well I pulled them out to QT cowfish and 3 clowns 6 treated them using hypo for 6 weeks, they all made it. I did get the damsel out at the same time but went bye bye. Now all of them have been in the tank for 4 - 5 months happy. I added a sailfin tang, yellow watchman, 2 clown gobies they all went thru hypo for 4 - 5 weeks in QT before hitting the main tank.
I guess not a good example since the cowfish was not QT and probably introduced ich again or the damsel hosted for that period of time without signs of it.

 

[Sk8r]

It's hard to say who was the carrier there. Any fish you introduce could potentially bring it in.

That's what's so darned hard to judge about this particular problem, the latency. Can latency just go on and on? Clearly with certain diseases in humans, it can.

But this is not a disease, it's a parasite, which i would think would have a more limited run, without being able to complete its life cycle---how DOES a parasite get nourishment during dormancy? A disease can, I would think, more readily draw on the chemistry of the body fluids around it, being a single-cell organism with a cell wall that's permeable, but what about the ich parasite, which I take for a more complex organism? Does it encase and rest? Does it reside anywhere in particular in a host? Curious, here...

 

[Steven Pro]

Because Cryptocaryon irritans often infects just the gills or when it is attached to the body it is sometimes too small to see when in small numbers, an infestation can often go unnoticed. If you have ich in your display, the only way to be sure to get rid of it is to remove and treat all the fish.

 

[Sk8r]

I agree with that, Steven. I'm not advocating non-treatment, far from it, and that's why I didn't post this in the newbie forum. Treatment is what to do. I'm more curious at this point, not having a crisis, but wondering why I never did have one, more because I'd like to better understand this pest.

The tank in question is mine, as you could guess, and I didn't treat because the ich outbreak happened [of course] right two days before I had to go on a long trip. So having a very light fish load, and more or less fatalistically, I left things as they were, save the removal and treatment of the ich-carrier, saw nobody else had gotten it, and rather than tear up my tank chemistry in a fish-chase, I decided on the finger-cross method and just left it in good condition. I came back to a thriving tank and no ich. I told myself, well, so far so good, but the next instance, and we're going to do a wholesale treatment. But time passed. There has never been ich since. It's been 6 months. And now I'm kind of wondering if it's a non-issue, or what? I think there must be a lot of people out there who are kind of in this situation: I don't think my tank is unique...you don't want to say, hey, I got away with something, because you don't want to be responsible if some new reefer reads it, lets a case go and loses every fish he's got, but the curiosity is still there---what is going on?
[And let me say it just to be clear---if you're dealing with ich and you're new to the hobby with a brand new and raw tank, play it safe, qt your fish before you put them in, and if ich or velvet shows up, take EVERY fish out to qt, and treat thoroughly. This is not an excuse to try to skinny by without treatment: I took a big chance and got lucky, that's all.]

 

[Steven Pro]

Fish can/do develop immunity to this parasite, but you can never tell if the immunity is complete, i.e. there are no parasites left, or partial meaning that the immunity keeps the parasite levels low, unnoticable but awaiting some other event (such as a power outage) to come back full force.

 

[eskymick]

I'm not an expert, but I have a reasonable opinion on this.

I do think that it is possible to have an ick free tank using the "fallow method". But, realistically, very few have the patience and resources to follow that procedure to the letter with every purchased.

I do the best I can to chose healthy specimens when purchasing .. and I place them in a short-term quarantine tank for observation (a week or two max). Yes, I do occasionally see a spot of ick in my main tank, but I've never had a lethal outbreak. Actually, I'd rather see a spot or two of ick than some of the other, more virulent afflictions which can break out (velvet, brook, and bacterial infections).

In my opinion, healthy and stress-reduced fish are by nature generally highly resistant to ick and can fight it off just as easily as a healthy human can fight off the common cold.

I think the secret to avoiding a lethal ick outbreak is to keep our livestock as healthy as possible through proper nutrition, a stress reduced environment (modest bioload), the use of nutritional supplements, and by keeping our water chemistry as close to nature as we can.

When we "freak" every time we see a spot of ick and start chasing down the "infected" animal, we stress the entire tank and make conditions ripe for a wider outbreak.

 

[bheron]

I am firm beleiver that ich will always be there. i contracted ich in my tank by taking in LR from someone elses tank, from what i can tell.

there's a thread on here thats miles long about one guy, the ich specialilst, going through every single painstaking step to rid himself of it. and its still there! also, we dont know everything about the parasite.

so, in the end, instead of fighting it, my belief is to run a healthy tank so that youre fish are prepared to deal with it. my tank has ich, every once in awhile my hippo tang shows a spot or two, and then it goes away. im under the belief that its b/c i have healthy fish in a healthy tank.

here's the link to the giant thread. decide for yourself...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=774229

 

[labragg1]

eskymick & bheron--I think you hit it on the nose with your comments.

I too believe that the best way to fight ich is to keep your fish and environment as healthy as possible. With all the vitamin supplements, etc that are available on the market these days, having healthy fish is very possible.
I have a quarantine tank, but I only use it as a last resort in emergency situations. I believe that sometimes moving fish back and forth from quarantine ends up stressing the fish and doing more damage than the disease they had.

JMO--but I don't believe that you will ever have a 100% disease-free tank. I do believe, though, that it's up to us to keep our fish healthy enough to fight it off on their own.
HTH

 

[Kiel'thalin]

To keep to Sk8r's discussion:
You have fish, you add one more ich susceptible fish, he gets a serious case of ich, you remove fish and wait 6 months to reintroduce that same fish that contracted ich in your tank that has not significantly changed. IMO the probability he would get ich is pretty high since you didn't treat the other fish in the tank and the disease is still there in a quantity greater than that ich susceptible fish was ever used to. Does that make sense, or can that very same fish be introduced successfully. If so, what would be a good wait time, I hope not 6 months. Thanks...

 

[Steven Pro]

Try to keep in mind that Cryptocaryon irritans is a parasite. Stress might play a role, but it is not the cause. For example, if you are working 80 hours per week for a company that is about to layoff 10% of its work force, your wife has just left you, you have been forced to move into a small apartment, you are eating nothing but pizza and fast food, and your dog just died, you are not necessarily going to contract lice or ticks or any other parasite. Stress does not cause a parasitic outbreak. Exposure to parasites does.

 

[eskymick]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130144#post8130144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Steven Pro
Try to keep in mind that Cryptocaryon irritans is a parasite. Stress might play a role, but it is not the cause. For example, if you are working 80 hours per week for a company that is about to layoff 10% of its work force, your wife has just left you, you have been forced to move into a small apartment, you are eating nothing but pizza and fast food, and your dog just died, you are not necessarily going to contract lice or ticks or any other parasite. Stress does not cause a parasitic outbreak. Exposure to parasites does.

You're exactly correct, Steven Pro, ick is a parasite. But, in my observation and opinion there are "forces" at work that go beyond parasite exposure.

Why is it that some species are seemingling "immune" to the ick parasite?

And, why is it that on many occasions, only one or two fish in an aquarium are severely infected and yet the other inhabitants are not so or not at all?

One could also say that viruses and bacteria are "parasites". They, too look for a proper host to "infect" and replicate within. I continue to believe that overall health (including stress level) is a major factor in a species ability to ward off most such infections and infestations.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129105#post8129105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bheron
I am firm beleiver that ich will always be there. i contracted ich in my tank by taking in LR from someone elses tank, from what i can tell.

I completely agree.

Unless you QT every frag, piece of rock, etc, anything thats been in saltwater with fish, you're chancing putting it in the tank.