Is it possible to have a completely parasite free display tank?

[Enjoy]

Recently my display tank was hit with Ich pretty bad, and I lost a few fish that dear to me. Since then I have pulled the remaining fish out, and put them into my QT tank. I plan on starting Cupramine treatment shortly.

My questions:
Is it possible to completely rid all parasites with an effecient QT?

If I keep my display tank fallow for 2-3 months, and do cupramine/Paprizo treatments in QT over that time is it possible to kill off all parasites in DT and QT?
If all fish are QT properly is there anyway parasites can make it back into the DT? Eggs on coral, etc....?

Any Advice for QT setup other than the obvious?
Should I run a skimmer, or will it do more harm than good? Etc...


I would hate to have a very strict QT process for months, only to find that Im back at "square 1" in just a few months after re-introducing fish to the DT.

Looking for some help to get my system/fish healthy again.
Thanks in advance.

 

[SkullV]

If there are no bony skeleton fish in the DT for over 8 weeks there is no way that the ich can live. I treat all my fish with copper or hypo for 4 weeks in QT before adding them to the display. Never had an ich problem yet!

 

[Enjoy]

I QT'd all fish that went into the tank for 4 weeks, using Cupramine treatments.

About 1 month after all of the fish were in the DT, my skimmer overflowed causing my water quality to drop. I quickly did my water changes, etc...

Within 1 week, all fish had Ich to the point of needing to be removed. I set up another larger QT tank, and have slowly started moving fish over. I do not want to go through this again.



Anyone else?

 

[SkullV]

The ONLY way to get ich in a tank is to introduce a fish with ich or water with ich to the tank. Ich does not just appear contrary to popular belief.

 

[Chris27]

Yes it's possible to eradicate, however it involves QT'ing everything. For the fish, keep them out of the display for about 6 weeks, that will take care of it. From that point on, you need to QT anything you put in there for 4-6 weeks, this includes inverts, corals, rock and sand.

 

[Enjoy]

Thank you guys for your responses.
This is pretty much what I figured. But my one question is how to QT inverts, coral, rock, sand...?

So basically I need three seperate systems.

Display tank
Fish QT
Coral/Invert QT

Does this soud right?

Does this QT mean to just keep them in a seperate "fishless" system for 4-6 weeks?
What if I add new corals to the "coral QT" during that 4-6 weeks? Should I start the QT from the beginning again?

Thanks for all of the help. :thumbsup:

 

[SkullV]

Thank you guys for your responses.
This is pretty much what I figured. But my one question is how to QT inverts, coral, rock, sand...?

So basically I need three seperate systems.

Display tank
Fish QT
Coral/Invert QT

Does this soud right?

Does this QT mean to just keep them in a seperate "fishless" system for 4-6 weeks?
What if I add new corals to the "coral QT" during that 4-6 weeks? Should I start the QT from the beginning again?

Thanks for all of the help. :thumbsup:

You don't need to QT the corals/inverts if you don't want. Just dip the corals. The only way ich will get in wih corals is if they are in the water the coral/invert came in. Dipping them will get rid of any issues. Ich can ONLY attach itself to bony fish.

 

[Enjoy]

Sounds good. Now at least I have a plan!!:thumbsup:

Thanks again.

 

[Stuart60611]

You don't need to QT the corals/inverts if you don't want. Just dip the corals. The only way ich will get in wih corals is if they are in the water the coral/invert came in. Dipping them will get rid of any issues. Ich can ONLY attach itself to bony fish.

Defintely not true. The life cycle of the parasite has three stages -- the longest of which is the cyst stage. Any tank infested with the parasite will have many thousands of these cysts on virtually every surface in the system, including corals and inverts. Diping a coral will not kill the cysts. Copper cannot even kill the cysts, and therefore, anything that won't kill the coral or invert is not going to be effective at killing the cysts. When in the cyst stage, the parasite is the most protected and very difficult to kill. Even if you do not use any water from the tank where ich was present, you can and often do introduce ich to your display from a cyst resting on a coral or invert. That is why you have a non-fish quarantine which is any system without fish. You keep all items in the non-fish quarantine for 6-8 weeks so that all cysts hatch and ultimately die b/c the free swimming stage of ich that hatches from the cysts has no fish host to attach to. Adding a coral or invert from a system which has ich is one of the most common ways people inadvertantly infect their displays. A coral dip will in no way protect you. For example, if you look at the most popular coral dip, Coral RX, nowhere in the list of organsims it states it kills is the cryptocaryon parasite.

 

[Enjoy]

This is exactly what I was nervous about, and I believe happened to me the first time around. I QT'd all my fish, and dipped all of my coral and still ended up with Ich. Your reasoning obviously explains why...

If I set-up a seperate Coral QT tank and add new coral to it on date "A".
4-6 weeks after date "A" I can add them to the DT, correct?

What about if I add corals on date "A", and start my QT. But then in 2 weeks I aquire new coral. Im assuming whenever the last "new" coral was added is when the QT process begins.

Does this make sense?

Thanks again Stuart.

 

[SkullV]

Defintely not true. The life cycle of the parasite has three stages -- the longest of which is the cyst stage. Any tank infested with the parasite will have many thousands of these cysts on virtually every surface in the system, including corals and inverts. Diping a coral will not kill the cysts. Copper cannot even kill the cysts, and therefore, anything that won't kill the coral or invert is not going to be effective at killing the cysts. When in the cyst stage, the parasite is the most protected and very difficult to kill. Even if you do not use any water from the tank where ich was present, you can and often do introduce ich to your display from a cyst resting on a coral or invert. That is why you have a non-fish quarantine which is any system without fish. You keep all items in the non-fish quarantine for 6-8 weeks so that all cysts hatch and ultimately die b/c the free swimming stage of ich that hatches from the cysts has no fish host to attach to. Adding a coral or invert from a system which has ich is one of the most common ways people inadvertantly infect their displays. A coral dip will in no way protect you. For example, if you look at the most popular coral dip, Coral RX, nowhere in the list of organsims it states it kills is the cryptocaryon parasite.

Maybe I have just been lucky then or have had very healthy fish in my reef setup. I have never once QT a coral or invert. I just make sure no water ever goes in with them and all corals are dipped first. Dipping the corals SHOULD pop the cysts and then dipping them again should wash them away.

 

[Stuart60611]

This is exactly what I was nervous about, and I believe happened to me the first time around. I QT'd all my fish, and dipped all of my coral and still ended up with Ich. Your reasoning obviously explains why...

If I set-up a seperate Coral QT tank and add new coral to it on date "A".
4-6 weeks after date "A" I can add them to the DT, correct?

What about if I add corals on date "A", and start my QT. But then in 2 weeks I aquire new coral. Im assuming whenever the last "new" coral was added is when the QT process begins.

Does this make sense?

Thanks again Stuart.

Understanding the life cycle of the parasite will lead you to the answer to this question. The parasite first attaches to a fish. The parasite then falls off the fish in the form of a cyst. The cyst hatches into a free swimming stage which must then again attach to a fish within 72 hours or die. Therefore, whenever you add any coral or invert to a non-fish quarantine and wait 6-8 weeks, all cysts on the coral or invert will have hatched and died unable to find a host fish. If you have a coral or invert in your non-fish quarantine for 2 weeks and then add a new coral or invert to the quarantine, you just need to make sure to wait the entire 6-8 weeks for the newly added coral or invert before adding it to the display. The time period does not re-set for the corals or invert already in the non-fish quarantine because no new cysts can ever form since there needs to be a fish in the system for that to happen.

 

[Stuart60611]

Maybe I have just been lucky then or have had very healthy fish in my reef setup. I have never once QT a coral or invert. I just make sure no water ever goes in with them and all corals are dipped first. Dipping the corals SHOULD pop the cysts and then dipping them again should wash them away.

Luck is what you have been experiencing, or as you have alluded to, your fish are indeed infected with ich but suffer from a low level or subclinical infestation which is very common and often goes unnoticed for exetended periods of time. The dip will not harm the cyst in any way. You could wash away the cyst, but they are genetically designed to stick to surfaces so as to avoid being washed away. As such, washing them away is not going to always be effective. Plus, the cysts are microscopic so it is not hard to imagine that some will be missed during the washing away attempt.

 

[SkullV]

Luck is what you have been experiencing, or as you have alluded to, your fish are indeed infected with ich but suffer from a low level or subclinical infestation which is very common and often goes unnoticed for exetended periods of time. The dip will not harm the cyst in any way. You could wash away the cyst, but they are genetically designed to stick to surfaces so as to avoid being washed away. As such, washing them away is not going to always be effective. Plus, the cysts are microscopic so it is not hard to imagine that some will be missed during the washing away attempt.

Then what is the point of hypo? I thought the low salinity (or a freshwater dip) pops the cyst and then the free floating form can't mature and form new cysts on fish.

 

[Stuart60611]

Then what is the point of hypo? I thought the low salinity (or a freshwater dip) pops the cyst and then the free floating form can't mature and form new cysts on fish.

Another myth. Freshwater dips have very little effect upon ich and only kill those parasites attached to fish near the surface of the fishs' skin. Ich typically is under the mucas layer of the skin. That is why cleaner shrimp also have no effect on ich because the shrimp cannot get under the mucas to eat the parasite.

Hypo does not kill ich at all. Rather, the reason hypo serves as an effective treatment for ich is it prevents the cell division so that the cysts can hatch living free swimming parasites. In other words, hypo stops ich from multiplying, but it does not kill the parasite. That is why hypo takes longer to complete than copper which kills the parasite only in its free swimming stage.

 

[Enjoy]

Excellent info Stuart. Thank you so much for breaking it down, and making it easier to understand.

That is the approach I will take to make sure I keep these parasites out of my system.
Other than Ich, what parasites should be treated for regularly before adding fish to display. I have heard of flukes, worms, etc...

So what is the best QT method?

Cupramine only?
The only symptoms I have noticed thus far are from Ich. Should I treat for other parasites as well?


Thanks again

 

[Enjoy]

Have you ever heard of/used Quinine Sulfate?

I just read some info saying that even copper wont kill some of the more recent strains of Ich. I've read that Ich has become more resistant to copper.

"Everyone must remember that those old Ich treatments i.e., Malachite Green, Formaldehyde & Copper do not work on the new strains. Quinine Sulfate is the drug of choice."

- nationalfishpharm.com

 

[Stuart60611]

Excellent info Stuart. Thank you so much for breaking it down, and making it easier to understand.

That is the approach I will take to make sure I keep these parasites out of my system.
Other than Ich, what parasites should be treated for regularly before adding fish to display. I have heard of flukes, worms, etc...

So what is the best QT method?

Cupramine only?
The only symptoms I have noticed thus far are from Ich. Should I treat for other parasites as well?


Thanks again

Your very welcome. My approach is outlined in the below thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1930781

 

[Stuart60611]

Have you ever heard of/used Quinine Sulfate?

I just read some info saying that even copper wont kill some of the more recent strains of Ich. I've read that Ich has become more resistant to copper.

"Everyone must remember that those old Ich treatments i.e., Malachite Green, Formaldehyde & Copper do not work on the new strains. Quinine Sulfate is the drug of choice."

- nationalfishpharm.com

Copper will kill all strains of ich. Copper resistant strains of ich are nothing more than rumors which have exclusively been passed along by those who sell the quinine based drugs, such as National Fish Pharmacy. There is not a single study which has yet to also verify the existence of this copper resistant strain. The quinine based drugs are, indeed, a viable choice to treat ich. They have several advantages and disadvantages. They are the best in terms of providing rapid relief to the fish because they kill the parasite both on the fish and while in the free swimming stage and therefore can provide very fast relief to the fish. They are not absorbed in calcerous material, such as rock, like copper so they are easily removed. The bigest problem with the quinine based drugs is there is no way to measure whether you are maintaining a therapeutic dose, and the medicine rapidly breaks down in light and in saltwater. Below is a thread I started concerning an unconventional approach to dealing with ich I was previously considering, but it has references to the best information I could find on the quinine based drugs and ich.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1891371

 

[Enjoy]

Sounds like I will be sticking with Cupramine in my QT tank.


Honestly, Stuart thank you sooo much for your help. Both my fish, and I greatly appreciate your time to respond back with such knowledgeable information.