Is there a death list?

A

Actuarial Goat

New member
Hoping that thread title is provocative enough...

I've done three different FOWLR tanks over time, so I'm not new per se. I now have a 220 basic reef....essentially I'm just introducing soft corals slowly and trying to build a fish list that will cooperate (so no angels)...(OK, maybe a dwarf or two)...but I've never experienced the kind of fish death I'm seeing in this tank, which really sucks because this one is by far my biggest, most expensive and intentional effort to date.

My question is, do we have a list of cause of fish death, maybe sorted by likelihood :lmao:? I have had many deaths over the course of this particular tank, thought we had taken care of everything, and now I have a new onslaught and I'm getting to my wits end. Just over the last 24 hours, I lost a Flame Angel, a Vagabond butterfly, and my beloved green mandarin, who was huge and ate like crazy right up to the end and has been in there for 6 months. A week ago I lost a fat 5" square back Anthias. A month before that was a Coral Beauty.

Worth noting that of all these deaths, only the Coral Beauty and Mandarin were found. The others just fully disappeared, even the Anthias. The Mandarin did have a tiny bit of brand new wear and tear on his front dorsal fin.

All these fish were QT'd, all had been in the tank beyond what I would think of as "new fish stress" (more than a month). The only signs of stress on any fish is a Desjardini Sailfin, who has been in there for a year and has significant HLLE that started around 6 months ago. But I also have several other good size fish (naso tang, hippo tang, powder blue) with no signs of illness or stress at all. Everyone eats and is active.

My only thoughts are:
(1) parasite. I have used PraxiPro on my last 3 quarantines, of which the Flame and Butterfly were a part, but I did not use it prior to that, so the Mandarin did not get it. But wouldn't they show symptoms before just kicking off?
(2) a contaminant that I'm not testing for
(3) a predator that I don't know about. We did have a 5ft long Eunicid worm toward the beginning (yes 5 feet, I have pictures) but I got him out. My wife is convinced it's one of the bristle worms...I'm telling her that's not how it works, but in her defense, there are a few massive ones (over a foot) in there.....and one of them is a different red color than the other grey ones (so maybe a fire worm? Could it do this?)

Anyway, any help on fish death is what I'm looking for. Early answers to the basic questions:
220 gallon, up and running for a year
No ammonia, no nitrite, ~20 nitrate, 8.2 pH
SG is currently 1.0285...I know it's high but it didn't get there over night, and I'm going to bring it back down with some water changes
There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the deaths....some are new(er) additions, some have been there almost since the beginning.

HELP!!! :headwallblue:
 
A contaminant would also affect your corals, and Prazipro should take care of most worms. (Although you need to dose it 2x, 5-7 days apart.)

Which brings us to velvet: https://humble.fish/marine-velvet/

Do you treat with copper or chloroquine during your QT protocol?
 
I do follow the 2x protocol on Prazi...

I have never used copper or chloroquine....can velvet kill so many fish without any visible symptoms?
 
It's sneaky, and can go through a tank bigtime. One question: on the bodies you saw, was there any mid-section red spot? Pistol shrimp can go rogue. Mine did. But I agree, velvet, maybe. Unusual for a mandy to get a parasite: they have the world's thickest slime coat except, I swear, for hagfish.
Google 'hermodice carunculata' for a fireworm pic.
We haven't said anything about water parameters. Any alkalinity problems? My usual is 8.3. [Impact on slime coat is the reason I mention it.{
I've never had an issue with any worm, and just name my foot-long'ers. But extremey tufty bristles (as in H.C image) is a no and uncommonly red is suspicious.

I'd pull survivorrs and favored worms to qt for 72 days, and maybe devise a eunicid trap with a tilted carafe and something for bait.
 
Oh, also get some PolyFilter and put a snip of it into your water flow: shows which contaminant by the color it turns AS it removes it. Brown, usually, for organics; but if there's a hint of other color, that's a problem. If you show color, use the whole strip and order more.
 
I wonder if Uronema is possible here. It doesn't sound very likely. But, to eliminate it as a possibility, you would need to disinfect everything wet from both your display and quarantine tank. Going fallow doesn't work because uronema doesn't require a host. It can survive on detritus, etc. So if you've EVER had it, you still do.
 
Actuarial Goat said:
Can velvet kill so many fish without any visible symptoms?
Click to expand...

Sometimes it invades the gills and the fish dies due to asphyxiation before symptoms (white dots) ever present on the body.

Michael Hoaster said:
I wonder if Uronema is possible here. It doesn't sound very likely. But, to eliminate it as a possibility, you would need to disinfect everything wet from both your display and quarantine tank. Going fallow doesn't work because uronema doesn't require a host. It can survive on detritus, etc. So if you've EVER had it, you still do.
Click to expand...

It's possible. There's also Trichodina: https://humble.fish/trichodina/

But that's usually only a problem in a system with poor water quality.
 
I can't take much more of this...today's victim was the Powder Blue, who looked amazing right up til I went to bed last night. Didn't see him today, found him wedged under a rock crevice with at least one large bristle worm working him over, might have been two.

I'm going to put out a lot more info here, please keep commenting:

Params are unchanged from the OP except nitrate, which is around 40 now. This doesn't surprise given how much dead fish there are in there now.
dkH is 6.9....this is a bit low but it's not gonna kill fish. I'll deal with it.

When we talk poor water quality, we're talking basics, right? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, SG, temp? These are all fine (SG needs to come down some). Corals are more demanding, but the levels I've stated shouldn't kill fish, nor should they be deemed "poor water quality" for purposes of determining whether things like Trichodina. Agreed?

I did NOT notice anything unusual on the few fish bodies I've seen, although I only see about one in four of the deaths. The mandarin was the best viewable, and he looked awesome, still big and fat, great color, just the front dorsal fin was tattered, and of course the fact that he wasn't breathing. The powder blue was already wedged under a rock and was very discolored...but again he looked bold and beautiful 24 hours ago.

Most of the massive worms are gray in color with reddish bristles. The different one that I saw was red body and red bristles....but didn't quite look like these hermodice carunculata pics either. I'll need to get another look at him to see if the bristles are "extremely tufty" like in the pics. If he is a fireworm, is he capable of this kind of mayhem?

Also worth noting, just in case: this latest rash of deaths began shortly after I added a HOB protein skimmer to help with nitrates. Seems silly but I don't want to leave out any detail.

Last detail: green goniopora decided to stop opening about 3 days ago...this was after the rash of fish deaths began, but worth mentioning anyway.

Here's everyone who's left:
6" Naso
5" Desjardinii Sailfin
3" Hippo
Azure damsel
2 Darwin clowns
2 Ocellaris clowns
Neon Dotty
Bicolor Pseudo
4" diamond goby
1" yellow watchman

The only one of them I worry about is the sailfin, he has severe HLLE but he has had it for months; he freaked out from a 70% water change and never seemed the same since. I just got Selcon delivered today, fed with it tonight, hoping that helps him out at least.

I feel like no explanation makes sense. If it was something like velvet, why do I see no symptoms on anyone? If it was a parasite, why don't I see the remaining fish deteriorating? If it was a predator, why is the watchman, who lives under a rock in the sand, still doing fine while large tangs and anthias are biting the dust?

I work a lot but I might use tomorrow night (Friday) to stay up super-late....I have a night scope, that's how I caught the Eunicid last summer. I'm going to do some spying. If I don't see anyone interesting, I'm afraid I'll have to move ALL the animals to my 55g QT, and I guess treat with copper?

When I move to QT, do I need to move coral as well? What about my BTA?

Any other ideas on how to stem the tide????
 
It seems like all of these deaths are happening at night. What is your surface agitation like? I know you just added a HOB skimmer, but is it possible we're seeing oxygen deprivation on evenings when there is uneaten food in the tank, or something is stirring the substrate, and some other contributing factor is playing a role?

Kevin
 
I will see what I can do with the next carcass, but as I said, I only even witness about 1 out of 4.

I don't know for certain that they are all dying at night, it's just that I don't witness any deterioration and then suddenly they're dead the next day. So it seems likely. Which then makes me think predator again....

Surface agitation is strong. Two powerheads tilted toward the surface causing ripple 24 hours a day, plus the new skimmer. I figured testing o2 wasn't even worth it....you guys think I should test it? Substrate stirring is certain: two gobies plus a zillion worms...which leads me to....

These worms are proliferating like crazy, and this is coinciding with the fish deaths. Maybe it's because the carcasses are food, but....I'm going night scoping tonight or tomorrow. The yellow watchman is right in there rubbing against them like he doesn't care. I've tried the panty hose with shrimp trick, got nothin. But there are at least 2 dozen large ones (>3 inches) now.

Can anyone tell me how to put pics in my post (I'll search in the meantime)? I have a few that I'd like opinions on....please let me know if (a) these could be fire worms, not harmless bristle worms, and (b) if they are fire worms, are they really capable of this kind of carnage?
 
You can insert (or upload) a photo by clicking on one of these tabs:
 

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Actuarial Goat said:
I can't take much more of this...today's victim was the Powder Blue, who looked amazing right up til I went to bed last night. Didn't see him today, found him wedged under a rock crevice with at least one large bristle worm working him over, might have been two.

I'm going to put out a lot more info here, please keep commenting:

Params are unchanged from the OP except nitrate, which is around 40 now. This doesn't surprise given how much dead fish there are in there now.
dkH is 6.9....this is a bit low but it's not gonna kill fish. I'll deal with it.

When we talk poor water quality, we're talking basics, right? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, SG, temp? These are all fine (SG needs to come down some). Corals are more demanding, but the levels I've stated shouldn't kill fish, nor should they be deemed "poor water quality" for purposes of determining whether things like Trichodina. Agreed?

I did NOT notice anything unusual on the few fish bodies I've seen, although I only see about one in four of the deaths. The mandarin was the best viewable, and he looked awesome, still big and fat, great color, just the front dorsal fin was tattered, and of course the fact that he wasn't breathing. The powder blue was already wedged under a rock and was very discolored...but again he looked bold and beautiful 24 hours ago.

Most of the massive worms are gray in color with reddish bristles. The different one that I saw was red body and red bristles....but didn't quite look like these hermodice carunculata pics either. I'll need to get another look at him to see if the bristles are "extremely tufty" like in the pics. If he is a fireworm, is he capable of this kind of mayhem?

Also worth noting, just in case: this latest rash of deaths began shortly after I added a HOB protein skimmer to help with nitrates. Seems silly but I don't want to leave out any detail.

Last detail: green goniopora decided to stop opening about 3 days ago...this was after the rash of fish deaths began, but worth mentioning anyway.

Here's everyone who's left:
6" Naso
5" Desjardinii Sailfin
3" Hippo
Azure damsel
2 Darwin clowns
2 Ocellaris clowns
Neon Dotty
Bicolor Pseudo
4" diamond goby
1" yellow watchman

The only one of them I worry about is the sailfin, he has severe HLLE but he has had it for months; he freaked out from a 70% water change and never seemed the same since. I just got Selcon delivered today, fed with it tonight, hoping that helps him out at least.

I feel like no explanation makes sense. If it was something like velvet, why do I see no symptoms on anyone? If it was a parasite, why don't I see the remaining fish deteriorating? If it was a predator, why is the watchman, who lives under a rock in the sand, still doing fine while large tangs and anthias are biting the dust?

I work a lot but I might use tomorrow night (Friday) to stay up super-late....I have a night scope, that's how I caught the Eunicid last summer. I'm going to do some spying. If I don't see anyone interesting, I'm afraid I'll have to move ALL the animals to my 55g QT, and I guess treat with copper?

When I move to QT, do I need to move coral as well? What about my BTA?

Any other ideas on how to stem the tide????
Click to expand...


Maybe try an ICP test to see if something's in the water so you can eliminate the water itself as a possibility.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So Friday morning the bicolor pseudo was gone. Then a REALLY weird thing happened......

Some time during Friday, after I had checked in for the morning, my diamond goby managed to jump out. It is a very significant trick to do that, given the canopy and the angles. But there he was on the floor behind the tank late Friday. He has been with me since day one, and always seemed very happy and healthy. I HAVE NEVER HAD A JUMPER TIL THIS ONE....so naturally.....

One of the ocellaris clowns jumped out Friday over night, and was found on the floor at the end of the tank Saturday morning. No jumpers in over a year. Two in two days.

Last new symptom: both the Naso and the Sailfin are now showing a bit of cloudiness/scratchiness in the eyes. Not a lot, but it just kind of looks like they scraped the lens of the eyes on the pavement a bit. The eyes might also be a little swollen out, I'm not sure.

My narrowed-down list of suspects for the sum total of all this nonsense: velvet, bacterial infection, predator, or some combination. My new questions for anyone with ideas:

1) Can velvet or a bacterial infection make a fish want to jump out of the water?

2) I'm going to have to catch them all and put them in QT, aren't I?:hammer::mad2: Can I treat for both velvet and bacterial at once? And how long do I leave the DT fallow, just presuming I have both?

3) Do I leave my BTA in DT or move to QT with the fish?

4) Can this many fish survive for however long it takes in a 55g QT? I have plenty of filtration power (It's already running a cycled aquaclear HOB filter, and I have a Fluval FX6 still in the box).

5) Will the worm population decrease in the DT if left unfed for the treatment period?

I am also going to do an ICP just for kicks.
 
HumbleFish said:
You can insert (or upload) a photo by clicking on one of these tabs:
Click to expand...

Thanks, I know this is obvious but I swear each time I tried (until now of course) those buttons were disabled, just dead on the screen.

Now of course my pics are 3.5MB each and it's telling me I'm limited to about 100k....so never mind. I'll just decribe. I can say that I have a beautiful pic of the powder blue, the butterfly, and a wide-open green goniopora from 10 days ago that I was going to show just because that's when I was happy :(

I have two main kinds of worms that are bugging me. One type tends to be around a pencil thick, is kind of a pretty gray color with maroon bristles. The other is a flatter maroon body with clearish white bristles. Based on as much googling as I can handle, I believe I have both bristle worms and Caribbean fire worms. From what I'm reading the fireworms aren't great, but they also can't be blamed for the insane death rate of the last week.

Let me know if these picture-less descriptions tell you anything. Thanks.
 
I think I figured it out....
 

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