Is This Brook? Please Help

[todddye]

I have a Flame Hawkfish that has been in QT since 9/24 due to what appeared to be brook in my DT. I used Coppersafe at first since I thought it was velvet, then realized that it was most likely brook so I did formalin dips and then transferred into clean QTs 4 times over the next several days.

Since then, I've ran 2 doses of CP with 1 week in between 100% WC and doses. The CP seemed to keep the disease at bay, but does not eradicate it - which also coincides with others experience with CP and brook. This past week I did another 100% WC to remove the CP and within 3 days my flame hawkfish developed a white patch on top of his head as shown below:

<a href="http://s876.photobucket.com/user/todddye/media/20141204_070830.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab323/todddye/20141204_070830.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20141204_070830.jpg"/></a>

Assuming this was brook and CP was not effective, I did another formalin dip and transferred into a clean QT then dosed with 1ml formalin for the 10g QT. Here is a picture of him after the first dip and almost 2 days in the QT with the formalin long term bath:

<a href="http://s876.photobucket.com/user/todddye/media/20141206_081019.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab323/todddye/20141206_081019.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20141206_081019.jpg"/></a>

As you can see, the white patch has increased in size and another patch has developed on his side.He has also become much more pale than he was prior to the dip. He is acting normally and eating well, but respiration rate this morning is slightly higher than previously.

I was planning to do another formalin dip last night but held off because it does not seem to be helping at all. When I did the formalin dips back in September, I saw definite improvement after the first 24 hours. Now, it seems to have gotten worse instead.

I'm now questioning whether this is brook or something else. Does anyone else have an opinion on whether this is brook?

Thank you in advance!

 

[snorvich]

Brook and Uronema present similarly. Ever had chromis involved during this "situation"?

 

[todddye]

Yes, I do. 2 of them and they showed spots of raised scales which I couldn't differentiate between fighting with the clown and uronema. Also of interest, the spots on the chromis developed while CP was dosed in the QT at 60mg/g.

2 days ago I separated the chromis from the clown and the spots have healed and no new spots are visible.

The chromis are currently in a 10 gallon with the flame hawkfish, and received the same formalin dip and bath treatment. They have been un-phased throughout this whole ordeal, aside from the spots on their sides which appear healed.

If it was uronema, should I change my approach using formalin dips and bath?

 

[snorvich]

Yes, I do. 2 of them and they showed spots of raised scales which I couldn't differentiate between fighting with the clown and uronema. Also of interest, the spots on the chromis developed while CP was dosed in the QT at 60mg/g.

2 days ago I separated the chromis from the clown and the spots have healed and no new spots are visible.

The chromis are currently in a 10 gallon with the flame hawkfish, and received the same formalin dip and bath treatment. They have been un-phased throughout this whole ordeal, aside from the spots on their sides which appear healed.

If it was uronema, should I change my approach using formalin dips and bath?

There are a lot of variables involved in your situation. I feel (strongly) that the best quarantine protocol is tank transfer followed by at least 3 weeks of observation (and two doses of prazipro during this time). I also do not mix fish during this process so I never put more than a single fish through the process unless I am dealing with a paired combination. The more variables you combine in a given process, the more difficult it becomes trying to figure out what is happening (or happened).

What methods should you use in fixing your current situation is not clear.

 

[todddye]

Steve - Thank you for your advice.

Your recommendation is to discontinue the use of formalin or other medication and strictly rely on TTM and then observe?

Just to clarify, these fish were in my DT for several months until I introduced a PBT without QT. I now realize that was a huge mistake. This is the reason I have fish together.

 

[Deinonych]

The white patches coupled with the brittle fins strongly suggest a Brooklynella infection. The fact that the formalin dips are not helping suggest something else. Are you placing the fish in a clean tank after the dips?

 

[todddye]

Yes. I did that 2 nights ago and was planning on doing another dip and then put into other sterilized tanks.

 

[snorvich]

The white patches coupled with the brittle fins strongly suggest a Brooklynella infection. The fact that the formalin dips are not helping suggest something else. Are you placing the fish in a clean tank after the dips?

I agree except brook and uronema present almost identically. The major difference between Brook and Uronema is that the lesions associated with Uronema marinum have a more defined margin between the thickened mucus and normal skin that is often red and inflamed. However, the symptoms and treatments are so similar that accurate diagnosis is not required for successful treatment. However, while brook can be eradicated in a fishless display tank, uronema does not require a fish host as part of its life cycle.

 

[snorvich]

Steve - Thank you for your advice.

Your recommendation is to discontinue the use of formalin or other medication and strictly rely on TTM and then observe?

Just to clarify, these fish were in my DT for several months until I introduced a PBT without QT. I now realize that was a huge mistake. This is the reason I have fish together.

I am talking about going forward. First eliminate any possibility of ich, then remove any flukes with prazipro, then observe with a time line that will force velvet, brook, or uronema to exhibit behavior or visual symptoms. Always follow your quarantine protocol.

Now, Chris is right, treat for brook.

 

[todddye]

I continued treating for brook with a second dip in 1 gallon of water and 1 ml of formalin MS and heavily aerated, and 4 of the fish immediately showed signs of stress. I pulled them out of the dip within 10 minutes and into fresh SW, but the 2 chromis, 1 flame hawkfish, and 1 rusty angel died.

The clownfish is the only remaining fish, and she is breathing very hard and laying on the bottom. I've attempted to follow the salvage protocol by lowering temperature to 72, salinity to 1.017, turned off the lights, and am going to grab my oxygen tank from the garage now to inject O2.

Does anyone have any other suggestions to save the clown?

I'm sick over this.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Did you put all 4 fish in the formalin dip at one time? How is the clown today?

 

[todddye]

I did put all in at once, like I did on Thursday and 4 other times about 2 months ago. They are all small fish and I had a 6" air stone, so the water was well aerated and at 74 degrees.

Do you think lack of oxygen caused the other fish to die?

The clownfish is much better this morning. She wasn't showing any signs of disease prior to yesterday's dip but was in a QT with the other infected fish. Her respiration rate is very close to normal, although I am aerating this tank excessively and have them temp at 72.

 

[Deinonych]

So sorry for your losses. How long did you aerate the dip water before adding the fish?

 

[todddye]

I put the formalin in and dropped the air stone in at the same time, then waited 10 minutes before putting the fish in. This was less time than I had done before but I was using a much larger air stone. After reflecting on this, my reasoning for using the large air stone was flawed since I was using the same air pump. All fish showed signs of distress almost immediately, but it took me 5 minutes to fill another 5 gallon bucket from my mixing station and get them transferred. The chromis died before I could transfer them. The angel and hawkish died in the fresh saltwater bucket a few minutes later.

I'm fairly afraid to use formalin after this, but am trying to understand what happened and if I did something wrong. One possibility I have considered is that the first dip on Thursday killed the parasites on their gills but left open wounds which were still exposed during the second dip. Is this possible or do you feel this was oxygen deprivation, or a combination of both?

 

[Deinonych]

Hard to say definitively. Formalin is nasty stuff, for sure, and it consumes dissolved oxygen rapidly. I personally prefer powerheads to airstones, as they agitate the surface better and promote more efficient gas exchange. That said, I don't think you can point to oxygen deprivation as a definite cause.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I don't know what shape the four were in prior to the dip but the chances of all four of them dying within minutes of the dip are pretty remote. It is recommended to only dip one fish at a time as formalin depletes the oxygen as Chris pointed out. You can use the same dip water but the water needs to be reader acted prior to the next fish going in.
What brand of formalin are you using? You can cut the dosage in half but go a little longer.

 

[todddye]

I'm using the FishVet brand.

A couple other questions:

Assuming that the fish is healthy enough to not require immediate relief, is a long term bath using the 1ml per 10/gal dosage sufficient to eradicate brook if dosed every day for x days? If so, how often should I re-dose?

Does anyone have experience using Metro instead of Formalin for brook? I've read alot of conflicting information.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I used that brand on a flame angel. I did one dip and I didn't think he was going to make it. I ended up going back to Quick Cure dips which cured the angel of brook. Long term baths are not at therapeutic levels to eradicate brook.
FWIW every posting I ever read on using metro to cure brook did not work.

 

[president89]

The same thing happened to my friend last week. In fact, when reading your thread, i thought you were him! Multiple fish in a formalin dip, and the fish were dead - similiar symptoms. I use formalin as a dip for new fish. I haven't successfully treated any affected fish in a dip, but I have had luck dosing a FO system with it and eliminating symptoms. I'm using Chloroquine Phosphate now in my QT with Prazipro. I think i'll continue to formalin dip new fish before they go into QT if coming from a questionable dealer - I have one with lots of great selection, but I've received some fish that came with a disease. Good luck. I use the fishvet formalin as well.