Is this parasite or bacterial infection?

[flameangel88]

I received this fish l8 days ago and it started out with pink spot around the stomach area and have goten progressively worst. At the time I thought it may be internal parasite I started to administer Prazipro (half dosage on Monday night and another half yesterday morning). The infected area seen to have worsen from last night.

Can you tell from the pictures if this is parasite or bacterial infection?

Last night

Just now where I can see trace of blood

/this is what it looked like when it first came in

 

[spamreefnew]

along for the ride. my mimic tang looks the same

 

[flameangel88]

Sorry, I meant to say I received the fish 8 days ago and NOT l8 days ago.

 

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13965825#post13965825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spamreefnew
along for the ride. my mimic tang looks the same

How long is your tang like this now? On another thread I posted (in the aggressive forum) it was said this is bacterial infection and should treat right away with Maracyn Two.

 

[baobao]

A couple of things going on: 1) the fish is malnourished 2) there seems to be an internal systemic bacterial infection. The issue has nothing to do with flukes, so if anything, you should stop the Praziquantel based treatment - that will just stress the fish more. I would suggest a broad based antibiotic such as Kanamycn and Neomycin Sulfate. The infection could be the result of tuberculosis or vibrio. Make sure the water quality is high and reduce any stress.

 

[cerianthus]

Kanamyacin is better choice but is it in Q/t now?. If it is, try applying smear of bacitracin ointment on the wound on daily basis. Water and oil do not mix well. any excess will just fall off. simple smear will do. Good Luck

 

[baobao]

I would avoid stressing the fish out by having to remove it from the water on daily basis. The priority needs to be to keep the stress level as low as possible.

 

[flameangel88]

Thanks for all the replies. It took 3 hours to remove over 200lbs of rocks (plus WC on the DT) to get this guy out and get everyone settle down. It's in a established tank that's been running for 3 years now and I opted to go with Melafix. I'll give it couple of days with a mild treatment to lessen the stress and see if there's any improvement before going more aggressive with Maracyn Two.

I think both of us had enough stress for one night...lights out and we both need a good night of rest.

 

[cerianthus]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13971808#post13971808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baobao
I would avoid stressing the fish out by having to remove it from the water on daily basis. The priority needs to be to keep the stress level as low as possible.

Only if conditions are improving by itself. If getting worse, hate to see fish waste away. Removing fish from the Q/T for moment to apply med which can yield faster and/or possibly better result, why not?
Have injected antibiotic on larger fish (Queen Trigger) with sucess w/o dosing the tank w/ antibiotic for what seemed internal bleeding.
Again, Its individual judgement call. just hate to see fish waste away.
As far as Melafix goes, never had good results. It dont think it is consider bacteriocide rather it is bacteriostatic.
Whatever you may choose to do, i hope it will yield happy ending.

 

[baobao]

Cerianthus,

With what antibiotic did you experience success via injection?

 

[JHemdal]

flameangel88,

One observation - although the primary lesion is on the left side of the fish, there is a mirror image on the right side. To me this implies a deep-seated infection, so superficial treatments such as Melafix, stress reduction, topical ointments and antibiotic baths will be useless.
Is the fish still feeding, and have you seen it eliminate any wastes? My concern is that the stomach and intestines may already be involved.
I can't offer any treatment advice because unless you can get a sample of some of the lesion and look at it under a microscope, there is no way to rule out Uronema, a protozoan infection. Of course, none of the antibiotic recommendations would have any benefit if it were Uronema......

Jay

 

[baobao]

Jay,
Two questions:
1) Under a microscope, what would lead you to identify this as Uronema?
2) If it is Uronema, would it the proper course of action?

 

[flameangel88]

First, I want to thank everyone for your valuable time and advice you've given me.

Unfortunately the Griffis took a dramatic downturn yesterday and passed overnight. When I came home last night it was just sitting on the bottom behind a large rock. After seeing the infection with a flashlight I knew it wasn't going to make it. It stopped eating after I took it out of the DT and the infection exploded overnight. The vendor had this fish for 2 weeks and when I got it in it had pink spots on both side, was it chemical that prolonged the infection from breaking out?

Here are the pictures when I got home last night

Jay--when I took the fish out the flesh was coming off the infected area. I've never seen anything like this before especially how fast the infected area grew. Do you think the fish had a chance if I treated 10 days ago when it was only pink spots?

 

[discusone]

flameangel88,

Sorry about the Griffis.I am sure you have already done this,but assuming it was Uronema,goggle,and there is a ton of info on this parasite.

Really interesting was the study by the National Aquatic Animal Health Technical Group,talking about the loss of Leafy Seadragons due to this parasite.

And for Jay,
Several of the articles seemed to suggest that copper was an appropriate coarse of action,along with strict substrate cleaning.In the case of the Seadragons,frequent cleaning of the substrate reduced the mortality of the Seadragons.

Any thoughts about this.

 

[baobao]

Discusone -

My understanding is that poor water are the right conditions for Uronema. I also did find the articles you mentioned online, but they had suggested using Hydrogen Peroxide, Nitrofurazone, Methylene Blue. Unfortunately, I dont think those are appropriate for a sytem because 1) HP burns fish if dosed inappropriatedly and Nitro and MB will kill your filtration (in addition to permanently tainting your tank). The solution would be to do baths, but this could be very stressful on the fish. Copper may be an appropriate course of action, but you would only do this in Quarantine Tank.
This is actually one of the key reasons why I, personally, dont use substrate in my tanks - it's easy for dirt to accumulate there and foster these conditions. If I had to get substrate, it would have to be the coarser sand that can be properly cleaned. Bottom line, keep your tank clean, and you should avoid this from happening.
Jay - your thoughts on Uronema?

 

[cerianthus]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13982461#post13982461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
flameangel88,

One observation - although the primary lesion is on the left side of the fish, there is a mirror image on the right side. To me this implies a deep-seated infection, so superficial treatments such as Melafix, stress reduction, topical ointments and antibiotic baths will be useless.
Is the fish still feeding, and have you seen it eliminate any wastes? My concern is that the stomach and intestines may already be involved.
I can't offer any treatment advice because unless you can get a sample of some of the lesion and look at it under a microscope, there is no way to rule out Uronema, a protozoan infection. Of course, none of the antibiotic recommendations would have any benefit if it were Uronema......

Jay

Google uronema marinum which can assist in understanding of Uronema. It is treatable. Although never experienced Uronema, this symptoms may not be of uronema.
By the way. Sorry to hear the loss!!!

 

[JHemdal]

Sorry the fish didn't make it.

It could have been a bacterial infection or Uronema - you need to make a wet mount of some of the loose scales and look at it under a microscope - little pear-shaped ciliated protozoans scooting around would indicate uronema-like protozoans. Treating INTERNAL Uronema is almost impossible. Watch out on the Internet, a bunch of sites suggest Hyposalinity to treat this, but actually - dirty tanks and hypo are almost a sure way to cause it. I just finished an article on this scourge, but its under reivew by the publisher, and I'm supposed to keep it exclusive to them...so don't tell - here are some excerpts:

This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods when attempting a cure. Symptoms include the rapid development of a red mark forming in the hypodermis (fat and muscle) region of the fish, often following rows of scales so that the lesion is typically elongate, and angled downward as it progresses front to back along the flank of the fish. Within a day or two of the development of the primary lesion, the fish will become lethargic, stop feeding and its respiration rate will increase. Scales above the lesion can be easily dislodged due to the massive trauma to the underlying tissue. Death follows rapidly; with few fish surviving beyond three days after the primary lesion develops.
Almost universally, aquarists who do not have access to a microscope will identify this disease as a “secondary bacterial infection resulting from some injury”. In fact, “capture damage” is often cited as the original cause due to the often linear nature of the lesion â€"œ looking so much like a bruise from being hit with a net frame for example. The rapid onset of the lesion (often many days after capture), and the fact that it develops internally and then erupts externally all point to another cause.
Uronema is an elongate oval ciliated motile protozoa, up to 40 um in length, which can become an opportunistic pathogen in marine aquariums. Because it is so generic-looking, identification in the field is always provisional. Most professional aquarists actually mean “Uronema-like” when they say “Uronema”.

Chloroquine has been used to control protozoan diseases of fish for many years. Older aquarists may recall a product from the late 1970’s known as “Marex” that was simply a small amount of chloroquine powder in a plastic tube. Public aquariums routinely use chloroquine, and can even measure the concentration of the drug in their exhibit water using ultraviolet spectrophotometers (Adams & Capen 2008). The use of chloroquine is not without its risks. There are some anecdotal reports that this drug may impair the nitrifying bacteria in aquariums, causing a subsequent rise in ammonia and nitrite concentrations of the water. This seems to be more of an issue with newer aquariums â€"œ well established systems usually do not see this problem.
Most suggested treatments with chloroquine call for a concentration of 10 to 20 ppm as a continuous bath. Activated carbon must be removed from the filters, and ultraviolet sterilizers should probably be turned off as there have been reports that ultraviolet rays will decompose chloroquine.

J

 

[baobao]

Jay,

1) Any reliable/ not prohibitively expensive UV spectrophotometers you could sugggest?
2) What is the half life of a chloroquine based medication such as quinine sulfate? ( chlorquine diphosphate is hard to find)
3) Is a continuous bath necessary or is there a certain amount of time that is sufficient to eradicate uronema if fish is a carrier?
4) Can praziquantel be concurrently used with chloroquine medication?
5) What is the effectiveness of copper to treat Uronema?

 

[JHemdal]

baobao:

1) Any reliable/ not prohibitively expensive UV spectrophotometers you could sugggest? Not that I've found, I'm looking myself.

2) What is the half life of a chloroquine based medication such as quinine sulfate? ( chlorquine diphosphate is hard to find) I do not have much information regarding a comparison between quinine sulfate and Chloroquine - I've used both, but the latter seems more effective and (without a spectrophotometer) it *seems* like we are getting 7 to 14 days worth of activity from a single dose.

3) Is a continuous bath necessary or is there a certain amount of time that is sufficient to eradicate uronema if fish is a carrier? I use it as a constant bath and have not tried it as a dip, so I don't know.

4) Can praziquantel be concurrently used with chloroquine medication? I just did a treatment where I ran them concurrently, no apparent problem, but obviously a one-time treatment is not proof.

5) What is the effectiveness of copper to treat Uronema? This I do have solid information on: Minimal below 0.22 ppm, marginal at 0.23, and fatal to most fish any higher than that, so I try to avoid copper for this disease.


Jay

 

[baobao]

Jay,

Would any of these work for measuring level of chloroquine (www.aquatico.com/subcategories/3755/photometers-by-YSI)?
How can I get chloroquine diphosphate? I've reached out to numerous vets and no one is willing to write me a prescription. Is there a human based product that I could use instead of the pure chloroquine disphosphate?