I've got the 45g, need your help, input, advice!

Jessica, it's a personal decision I think. However, if you're comfortable with just a check-valve or your sump can handle the volume regardless (I think yours could) then I'd say go with bulkheads. Looks MUCH better!

Howver, if you decide to go over the top anyway, I can't think of any reason to take it up through the overflow first then. Why waste space?
 
Ok, Im back...

I had to sell somethings at work today to justify my internet time... and then come home and feed the women, and ire them out, and super dad is still truckin along for a bit longer to help jessica some more...

I must admit, I really don't have anything new to add, Just examples. You all hit EXACTLY the same principal items I would have touched on and I didn't klack any keys getting it done...

Yes, I use the Check valve system, I use a HIGH QUALITY check valve proly the same clear one Scooter uses. It's pvc, and glues easily. Seen in this link.
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=FT8977
I just had to buy another one... seems the fellow I sold the last one to without getting money from has it hopelessly glued into a mess with no water running thru it.

I have tested it several/many times. works great. But Alas, I to am a doubting thomas on some items. that's why I used the second method as well. I drilled a 1/8th inch hole in the Loc-line (the black snakey stuff) threaded connector facing upward.... yes, up.
INSERT IGNORE IGNORE LINK:
http://www.modularhose.com/
I love the stuff, even used it on the led project... any-hew. the returns on my system are about 5" below the surface. (see point 3) the 1/8th inch hole sprays upward, but is buffered by 4" of water over it... I clear this hole FREQUENTLY as any debris can impede it's/their performance. this means every 60-90 days I use an old twist drill bit and my fingers to test it. it's not been blocked yet.

Point 3. Have you ever noticed how huch your tank goes up when you add 1 gallon of water? Or perhaps 5. or in the case of my 300, a 45 gallon trash bucket... but that's not the point here... in a 75 gallon tank, 1 gallon of water spread out to cover about 1/2"to 3/4" of water height. now, the check valve fails.... what's EXACTLY gonna happen... ? The tanks gonna drain to the anti-siphon hole... 4" down... about 5 and 1/2 gallons of water. Did you remember the original picture of my filter?
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/jmkarcz/DCP_8004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
notce that bottom ALL Glass 15 gallon tank... I got from Spike's boss Scott. When the system shut off, and I rigged the valve..(not gonna explain that one here, call if you need help) I filled that 15 gallon tank to the brim. BUT I did not spill 1 drop. that's why I made this change...
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/jmkarcz/New27gallonsumpforreef_0053.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
a 27 gallon acrylic sump from Glasscages.com I had it retrofitted and installed in a jiffy.

The point is, and here's a doosie... now I have room for an additional 15 gallons of water. but that's not the Paul Harvey here. The rest of the story is, and everyone will tell you, that your ENTIRE system will be made or broke on about 4 gallons of water or less. (generally speaking. Here's why... ask anyone on this board... anyone, to go to their tank, turn off their auto top off, and siphon 5 gallons of water out without turning off their pump. The result will be the same... the pumps would either spit bubbles, or nearly run dry. Why is this...? it's called Water in play boys and girls... it's the measure of water that exits taller than your baffels, overflows, pipes, waiting to go down the drain... I call it "magic time" when I start a new system. My 145 gallon reef (with filter) balances on about 2.3 gallons of water. If I loose that water, it ceases to run. Theres not enough water to pump into the tank, to cause an overflow, to run the water thru the filter maze, to get to the pump.

The magical time I was refering to, is that first time you add water to a new system. The time where it slowly fills the overflow to the point where it flows to the filter, then to the filter, then the first baffel, and then the second, and then any holding chambers.... BUT NOT the final chamber where the last chamber housed the bump intake. I slowly add till you determine the lowest minimal water line for the pump, this is the danger line. I add a gallon of so, this is the low and add line, I add an additional bit, gallon or 2 and this is the optimum running line.

What does this mean for Jessica...? If her returns were about 4" below the water line, (on a 46 gallon tank mind you) she lost 5 gallons of water into a 20 gallon sump....? It won be a problem so long as she dose not have more that X + Y + Z is not greater than 20 gallons....
where X is water in sump
where Y is the water in play
where Z is the maximum amout that can drain from the tank.

Stay tuned...

J
 
next, I got one of these....
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/jmkarcz/IMG_4512_resize.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
It's a higher end computer UPS... an Uninteruptable Power Supply or APC. These have small batteries that charge and discharge constantly, waiting for the power to go out. It's not a permanant fix, bt if the power goes out, it's only for a few seconds or minutes.... most often.... I beleive that is the big one hits, I'm screwed, as it'll run for something like 26 minutes.... I only run the return pump on the system. Certain electrical devices dont take well to having their power jerked, then thrust back on... we've all had pumps that didn't self start.... yet, you talk to people that have had their bumps runing for YEARS no problem.... one day they turned it off for 5 minutes, and it never goes back on.... this is my way of never experiencing this... (and ok, EBAY... http://search.ebay.com/search/searc...&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1&fgtp=
but if your buying, let me know, there's an easier way...

to illustrate my point about water balancing again... these... all 240 gallons
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/jmkarcz/IMG_3652.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

Run on this much water in a 10 gallon tank...
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/jmkarcz/100_2471.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>


ok... I forgot to mention that Loc-line.com is cheaper than Foster smith, or any other place I have ever gotten the stuff from... don't buy locally, they'll rape you, and plan your buy well. They often send me promos for free shipping... I buy from that site, in multi packs.

While running everything in the basement is great, it's gotta be a leap you want to make. It's been a godsend for me. no mess upstairs... and as soon as I get ambitious to stop the fibration from the pump and the return line, it'll be silent. I love to lay in the livingroom late at night and listen to only the trickle of water. Under my stairs was a logical spot...

Jessica, my short answer is that I think you will be happiest using the 2 bulkheads as I have done in the tank, not in the overflow. but you will have to invest in a check valve...
 
That's still half the size of your display. Unless you get a huge return pump and need more volume in the sump due to the flow, I bet it could handle it, and Jason can help you figure out baffle heights to match.
Click to expand...

when Scooter said this, that's because the faster your pump "throws" water back into the tank, the higher it stacks up.... to a point... it sort of, pressurizes the system... but all that water winds back into the sump. The way to deal with this is a bigger sump, or... a bypass on the pump... Where the line comes out of the pump, we run a tee, and then a valve. As we open that valve or valves... we bleed off water intended for the tank. if we are not creative, that water just is recycled into the sump. If we pur it to work, that pump could run a skimmer, a refugium, or even go thru chemical filtration. by opening this valve more, the water pressure continues to be bled off. really big and complicated systems like yaitisme Scott has, (just kidding I knew I'd work you in here somewhere...) use 1 pump to run everything, and still have left over water power to spare... expense raises quickly... but less pumps and 1 more power efficient pomp means electricity savings... many small or mid size pumps can be costly...
 
two bulkheads in the tank with the black snakey stuff... we're good to go... sunday then? Pm me your phone number ok? I'll give you a jingle before we head to town... if it's a go, that is!
 
J, I think your confusing my set-up with someone else's.

I am all for keeping a system simple, reliable, economical ($$$), and green (energy efficient). Shooting for as much natural filtration as possible, a single high flow HOB to move the water, and PC lights. I do not want to generate anymore heat through inefficient use of current.

BTW, watch for a new thread dealing with using uninterruptable power supplies (UPS) with pumps (don't want to hi-jack your thread Jessica).

O and Jason, since you are on a typing tirade (sp), can you give some info on how Jessica's planned refuse will work, ie the how/why for the baffles, bubble traps (if used), chambers and such.
 
Figuring out baffle height, number, and placement was the hardest thing of the whole setup for me. I even had it cutom made to use the max of the available space I had and still changed my mind 20 times or better before settling on the final result, and still not happy with it.

While it works fine for now, I think the final chamber is too small for running too many (or too big) pumps without running dry. For now is fine, but I promised Connie that clam tank that will go directly above upstairs some day, and I hoped to plumb it into the same system. May have to plumb a resovoir in with the sump for more space or something then.

I also still plan an above tank fuge when everything else is done and the permanent light rack is in place, although I could T that off the existing return.

Jessica and Jason, be sure to get us a couple pictures of the final result :)
 
oh of course, pics! :D

Does this happen, or is my paranoid mind playing tricks on me, but I try to think of every instance...
what happens if the drain gets plugged? Will the pump drain the sump, overflow the tank, and then run hot and dry? Do those pumps shut off when they run dry, or??? I can't even express how clueless I am on pumps, but I think that's another thread... and I wonder if anyone has a used one lying around? I've looked at prices and yipes! I don't want to have to drop $50 - $100 on a pump!
 
oh sunuva... :mad2: yes it's my own fault, but dangit the measurements worked...
the 20g is a no-go. It would fit in there, but I can't twist it around to get it in the stand, so the sump is now a ten gallon... :rolleye1: :mad:
 
If the drain plugged, yes, the tank would overfow. However, that's more of a problem for those with hang-on overflows and curious snails. The pipe for your drain is big enough it would take one BIG snail to plug it instead of just going on a Noah's Ark waterslide ride right to your sump.

If you want to imagine the worst, just imagine that once in the sump, it travels through all the baffles and gets stuck in the intake for the return pump :) See told you I was paranoid. Would have to be just to go right to that thought!

As for pumps going dry, I've had some that never worked again and others that were fine. I haven't had it happen in a long time though and was all on previous tanks before I had any auto top-off and was on vacation, or had a hang-on that got plugged or lost siphon.
 
Scott, I was teasing you because your plumbing was so complicated... ya know.... ant I only go on those tyrades once and a while... ask jessica about the pms I've been sending, some were so large that I hade to break into 3 pcs. The fuge is gonna take some planning... I will have to talk at some length with them.

And Yes, I could post the link that the other group and I were talking about the apc ups's. I still urge everyone to drop me a line, or shop for that UPS. I got mine for almost free, used it for 6 months then put 40$ worth of new batteries into it....


The other Scott, I had to adjust mine, what's that telling you.... I use the trial and error method.... at least the carpet will be clean by her tank... :D

Jessica... If the drain gets plugged, the overflow box will fill first, that's about 1 gallon, maybe more... Then, since the overflow is about the height of the bottom edge of that black lip, you can still fit another gallon or so in before it overflows... onto the floor...

Now, I told you that story to tell you this one... For this reason, there are some "Tricks" we apply to the drain pipe... Frist, there if you think about the bulkhead that your putting in for the drain... it's bigger... almost 2 times bigger than the input lines.. somewhere another geeky individual will find me a bulkhead capacity calculator... Dan Davis once gave me a number for the one I bought for the 300 gallon in my basement, it's like 4500 gallons per hour. WOW. And thats a 3 and 3/4"- you can reach your arm into it.

So we have this hole.... it's at the bottom of the overflow near the bottom of the tank... it's bigger than the inputs... we put an elbow on that bulkhead... and run a stand pipe... up several inches. We cut slots into this pipe, and in the rare event that the lower half gets plugged, the water rises... If it rises the whole height, it overflows into the top of the pipe...but that wont happen... and here's why...

Unless your water is chunky.... and I know Jon said it comes out that way in Menasha...

Go to your kitchen and get a towel... Lets pretend you have hair algae... Bad... you tear a bunch out, but your careless... it floats around and gets plastered to the drain pipe... this is like holding your towel over your mouth single thickness... You can still breathe thru it... the water will rise a bit, but still flow thru it... I would get that much build up after 2 weeks of ignoring it... the water in the overflow would raise about 1 inch and drop in the sump 1.5 inches...
After 2 weeks if you havent looked at your tank.... double over your towel and now breathe. If I'm right, and I am pretty sure I am, when you fold your towel for the four ply, representing 4-6 weeks of not caring for your tank, your husband will find you on the floor passed out... you deserve that for simulating not taking care of your tank for 4-6 weeks.... at all.

No, the worst case I ran into was a few months back, Jon and Mako and I went South for that trip, I dropped my shrooms in the tank from Jon, and left them float till I got home at midnight.

I couldn't find one of the bags... after I pm'd Jon the next day, I checked the overflow to find it in the overflow... Now, if the bag was torn, it could have completly covered the drain... and ladies and gentleman, I would have deserved that... And if you did the same thing... I would say there you go...You to deserved it...

Water will always flow to the lowest point. It does that... Kiowascout will attest to a certain RO water incident about a year ago... and last year I befor my water top off was downstairs, I had the line run upstairs... and left the ro water on for about 4 hours... and beleived it was going into the filter... Well the cats knocked out the line. I was standing in the garage and saw water comming from the sill plate into my garage. I remember standing there for about 40 seconds and repeating in my head... "Huh... there's no water pipe there... wonder why that's wet..."

J
 
J, where did you purchase your nearly free APC UPS from? I found some on Ebay for around $35-40 with no sealed Lead Acids (prob. junk, saves on shipping).

About a year ago I aquired the same model from work for free. Saddly the control board was shot, recycled the old batts, and junked the unit. I am currently using a 500ah APC, borrowed from my Windows servers (rather have those go down than the unix based Mac!)
 
I second that... I would even try to get a 29 in there, or even a 36" tank like the 30 gallon tanks... My space required an odd alternative thats why I went to a 27 gallon acrylic from Glasscages.com

I second what Stig said - you NEED that size... and I WON'T drill another 10... unless it's for Scott. The glass is far to cheap and thin. It cracks every time... Where's Bri-Guy when I need him for a testimonial..


Scooter, I think my wors't case is worser... lets meet at the bar and trade stories over drinks till our wives have to come pick us up...

J
 
For running my lines to the basement, I simply put the tank stand over an opening for the heating/cooling and ran the tubes out a couple of holes I drilled in the bottom. Easy to fix, non-permanent and no drilling the floor or tearing up the carpet.

Not sure if this is possible in your case Jess, but it's something to look at.
 
According to Scooters link, a 12x turnover on a 46 gallon tank would be about 550 gallons, and the calculator gave these results...

Using the following input parameters
Gallons per Hour = 550

Drain and Overflow sizes are calculated as
Recommended minimum drain pipe diameter = 0.97 inches
Recommended minimum linear overflow size = 8 inches

So, to use a 1.25" inside dia Bulkhead... you should be safe, and if you have at lease 8 inches of linear overflow edge... like 4" x 8" x 4" you have 12"...

yep....

Good Job Scooter.

J

PS. I don't see the broblem, Jessica said she lives in the sticks... run the drain between them...
 
once the 38g is drained and removed Kevin says he can get that back brace out, "I'll get it, I have a sawsall" men... ok, so the 20g may still be a go... good.
 
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