Jonny's Elos System 70

[jonnybravo22]

Then I have a bunch of problems with my corals. They are brown, they don't grow, and several of them seem to just lose their base rather than encrusting, even if they have PE on the rest. They are fighting algae on their plugs (which I realized only recently might be leaching something that feeds the algae, and I never washed them or even knew that I should do that)

They are all mostly the same shade of blah and it's disappointing. I'm trying everythign from larger W/Cs to more frequent w/cs, and recently added Chaeto to my system which I havent noticed any impact from yet after 3 weeks. Not enough growth if any to notice, I havent harvested anything b/c it seems to be the same size or even smaller than when I put it in to start.


I think I had a week of missed W/C and started to get massive algae and a lot of stn'ing at the base. this was a month ago and since then I have upped the W/Cs and I THINK the STN'ing has stopped but who knows. I have a lot of this going on, where I cant tell if it is getting worse or just maintaining.

So .. I'm just in the middle of the "patience" part, but really not having the success yet that others are having. I dont know what my issue is. I can post stats after I go take measurements but my ALK is usually 9 - 10 and cal i tested yesterday is 400-450.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Stats:

Phos: 0.11ppm (hanna)
Alk - 10.6 (hanna)
Cal - 400 - 450 (elos)

Phos is higher than hoped for but i could see i had some algae. will add gfo. going to refrag and remount all the frags that had suffered some STN and do an extra WC (so 2 this week)

 

[jonnybravo22]

did a water change and found it interesting that my makeup water had such low ALK. I never tested makeup water before as i assumed it would just mix up pretty close to spec, especially if i mixed up the salt before using. The alk came out much lower than expected at around 6 dkh. my tank is running closer to 10.5 currently so i added alk component of 2 part to the makeup water to get it up to 10.5. first time i've done that level of testing / adjusting in a water change. usually i just match salinity.

oh also, i remounted most of the frags to get them off frag plus and mounted on live rock rubble instead and i cut off everything that was showing remnants of STN from a few weeks ago. we'll see how it goes.

 

[mavjoy]

Nice update. Your Phos is a bit high and you should run it at 0.00-0.03. Bring your alk at desired levels slowly, so dose accordingly and test every few days.

Hope everything bounces back and keep us posted.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Hey there. Reviving my thread on this tank as I took a break from the forum and recently have been back. As an update, here are the current tank specs:

Equipment / Setup
Elos System 70 (55 gallons)
70g Rubbermaid Stock Tank Sump (~60 gallons)
BK Mini 160 skimmer
1x MP40 (sometimes I also have an MP10 hooked up too, right now I need a new wetside)
Giesemann Infiniti 24" 250W MH + 4x T5s (2x Blue+, 2x Purple+) + DIY LED modification: 5x CREE Royal Blue with 80 degree optics
Profilux Plus II EX Controller, ATO, Auto Water Change ~3 gallons total per day split over 24 small changes throughout the day
Profilux dosers: B-Ionic Alk, Cal and Magnesium additives
Shallow Sand Bed ( ~1- 2 inches on average)
~80 lbs live rock, mostly pukani, split between tank and sump

Current Livestock:
2x Rods Onyx Clownfish
Blue Gigantea Anemone
1 Melanurus Wrasse
1 Royal Gramma
4x Chromis
Clean up crew is a few turbo snails

6 acro frags, mostly mariculture / non-name pieces from LFS or frag swaps
1 GARF Bonsai

Feeding
I feed a random selection of one of: Rods Food Original recipe (frozen), frozen PE mysis, New Life Spectrum pellets, or Ocean Nutrition Reef flake food once a day, sometimes twice a day on weekends.

I usually feed mysis until i run out of the pack, then Rods, then pellets and frozen until i buy more mysis and rods.


Latest Parameters
1.024 specific gravity
9.86 Alkalinity
500 Calcium
0.07 - 0.125 P04
5ppm - 20ppm NO3

Current setup has been up for 1 1/2 years, and was a directly move from a setup up for 3 years but added the large sump with the move.


I hope one day I'll have some nice reef pics to show but over the years I've still not quite "gotten the hang" of SPS. At my best, they've survived a stretch of 3 or 4 months, with minimal growth and fading colors, eventually leading to STN or RTN and no more frags. I have never had much coralline algae until the last 6 months, so I'm hopeful that I've reached a turning point. We'll see. I definitely appreciate help from folks in this forum. One thing I learned recently is that I was managing my ALK and CAL independent of nutrient levels, and that's not how it works.

My current plan is to get these basic frags to survive, hopefully grow and thrive. If I can do that, I'll go back to buying some of the fancier frags I've always wanted to keep.

My evaluation of the frags at the moment is that they *seem* to be *mostly* surviving, but not growing. And I've lost 2 in the last month to STN from the base up. I fear 1 or maybe 2 more might be on the verge of STN from the base or already starting. Which frustrates me immensely.

I am rusty on tank pics and haven't taken any before with the new LEDs so white balance is a bit off and I didn't take these pics into post production so hopefully they'll get better over time.

Enough talk for now, here are some pics:

All frags:

Scared these are STN'ing:

This Frag was a solid purple when I got it. The underside was a bit more pale and has since started to STN nearly the whole underside. I put coral glue on it to try to stop it from spreading. Hard to tell if it did since the whole side is now white anyway. It doesn't look good though, I'm thinking this one might be gone any day now. I also dipped it in iodine bath (6 drops of lugols to 1 cup of tank water) before using the glue.

This one is sort of a tan frag with blue tips and green polyps, but there's been a lot of algae around the base. Makes me concerned.

Other frags
The one I'm most excited about and seems to be doing OK:

GARF Bonsai (seems to be doing well, but man I wish it would encrust that frag plug. It has extended like 1 millimeter at the base in the last 2 weeks or so, fingers crossed):

This Millepora has shown the most interest in encrusting, it has started to show a growth ring. It was a $6 nub of a frag and hasn't grown since I got it except that circular ring starting to form. Fingers crossed here as well:

Pretty cool purple coral with good PE and blue tips. The thing I worry about here is algae growing at the base of the frag plug.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Sump pics:

What's going on with my sump -- about 2 months ago I wanted to decrease my nutrients, which were registering > 200 ppb phosphorus (or >0.613 ppm PO4) according to hanna checker. So I got a big ball of Chaeto and an LED par 38 bulb and one of those standard clip on housings.

The chaeto held up OK for a few weeks, and then about 2 weeks ago I go out to the sump and see this craziniess. It's all covered in red slime. Chaeto has all but died (color faded to very light pale green and it breaks all apart when you touch it), and a bit of this red slime has made its way onto my sandbed in the display. Good grief, am I right?

I do not know how to fix this. My nutrient readings are in prior post, which seem to be in line with what people maintain for a "high alk, high nutrient" system, but alas I don't suspect they have to deal with a sump that looks like this. Any suggestions?

 

[firebirdude]

I don't see any pics in your latest posts.

 

[jonnybravo22]

I don't see any pics in your latest posts.

Thanks for the heads up. Edited posts above, hope they are working now!

Also, hey man! Been forever. Hope all is well.

 

[firebirdude]

Algae, any algae, comes from excessive nutrients, low flow and lots of light.

Keep that flow high in the display and keep the "added nutrients" as low as possible. How often and what are you feeding the fish? Hope you're not trying to feed those tiny corals? Trying to "kill" the algae is only a short term solution. It's like a fat guy getting liposuction, but not changing any of his daily routine.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Algae, any algae, comes from excessive nutrients, low flow and lots of light.

Keep that flow high in the display and keep the "added nutrients" as low as possible. How often and what are you feeding the fish? Hope you're not trying to feed those tiny corals? Trying to "kill" the algae is only a short term solution. It's like a fat guy getting liposuction, but not changing any of his daily routine.

added to above post on system. dealer's choice of rods food or frozen mysis, or if i'm out of the frozen stuff, flakes and pellets.

I feed once a day, sometimes twice on weekends. Sometimes I miss a day here and there.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Hope you're not trying to feed those tiny corals? Trying to "kill" the algae is only a short term solution. It's like a fat guy getting liposuction, but not changing any of his daily routine.

Maybe I should try dosing carbon and getting really crazy / in over my head. I'd love anything that would work.

My hope was that the Chaeto would absorb the nutrients but it seemed to do that for 3 weeks now it's just dying.

I feel I can't feed less since it's already only once a day. Do people agree?

What I think I want is a system that's like 10dkh, .1 PO4, 5ppm NO3 and no algae other than coralline.

 

[firebirdude]

Yeah that's WAY too much IMO. Also, Rod's and frozen mysis are quick to spread all over the tank and rarely all gets eaten. I'd stick with pellets slowly added and move to once every other day AT MOST.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Yeah that's WAY too much IMO. Also, Rod's and frozen mysis are quick to spread all over the tank and rarely all gets eaten. I'd stick with pellets slowly added and move to once every other day AT MOST.

Helpful. Two questions:

1. Do you think fish thrive if fed only every other day?
2. Wouldn’t you think changing out 3 gallons / 2.6% of system volume a day should keep me at super low nutrients on water changes alone? I think it worked out to be something like a 55% w/c a month which I’d have thought is on the high side??

 

[Tripod1404]

Coralline algae is definitely a good sign. It is very very rare for a tank that cannot grow CA to have healthy SPS corals. It can rarely happen with zeovite type of ULNS that you feed corals, but even than it is hard to say healthy SPS corals.

One thing I noticed is you seem to have considerable amount of fluctuation in N and P levels. As an example, 5 to 20ppm nitrate is a very wide range, people do keep SPS coral successfully at below and above those values, so the exact amount are not a big issue. But fluctuations betwen 4 and 20 would be stressful. I would try to keep it at a stable value. Personally I keep my tank around 7.5dKH 2-3PPM nitrate and ~0.02ppm Phosphate. I guess wou should be able to keep dkh at 8 with N of 5 and P of 0.06. If you intend to dose carbon and reduce N and P even more, I would drop alk value as well.

Also you seem to have some algea growth around the base of your SPS colonies. That can sometimes irritate corals and cause the tissue to recede. The algea doesn't seem to be something very "structural" or hard to remove. I would assume some snails would be able to graze it off. You might want to get some smaller grazing snails that can get close to corals and clean their bases. Especially before the corals start to encrusting. Once they stary encrusting, they can generally push algae away.

 

[jonnybravo22]

One thing I noticed is you seem to have considerable amount of fluctuation in N and P levels. As an example, 5 to 20ppm nitrate is a very wide range, people do keep SPS coral successfully at below and above those values, so the exact amount are not a big issue. But fluctuations betwen 4 and 20 would be stressful. I would try to keep it at a stable value.

Yes, I do believe this is a problem. I don't have a "plan" per se to dose carbon, I've never done it before and I'm concerned it's more likely to cause more problems due to my inexperience and likely bad technique. That said, I don't know how complicated it is.

What other ways might I try to control nutrients? I tried adding Chaeto to no avail (see post above), though algae is clearly growing in my sump. This would be the preferred method since it's simple and shouldn't have a lot of risk attached / doesn't require any new setup. But why is my chaeto not growing? I assume it's getting outcompeted by slime... is there a solution to that if so?

I could add a remote deep sand bed in the sump. I don't think that would do anything for phosphates but maybe help convert some nitrates to gas? (does it then leave the system)?

Also you seem to have some algea growth around the base of your SPS colonies. That can sometimes irritate corals and cause the tissue to recede.

Also yes. I think this is certainly the case for many of my STN issues in the past. Some have started without any apparent algae at the base, too, however.

I have been strategically repositioning my snails onto the frag tree at night and they are able to remove it overnight (if they don't fall off . It's back a day or two later. Fun times.

 

[Tripod1404]

Yes, I do believe this is a problem. I don't have a "plan" per se to dose carbon, I've never done it before and I'm concerned it's more likely to cause more problems due to my inexperience and likely bad technique. That said, I don't know how complicated it is.

What other ways might I try to control nutrients? I tried adding Chaeto to no avail (see post above), though algae is clearly growing in my sump. This would be the preferred method since it's simple and shouldn't have a lot of risk attached / doesn't require any new setup. But why is my chaeto not growing? I assume it's getting outcompeted by slime... is there a solution to that if so?

You can try carbon dosing, it is relatively straightforward. You can use something like NoPOx if you dont want to use home made solutions of vinegar. To be honest, I am not a big fan of continuous carbon dosing, but if you can reduce the values and then keep them there without further daily dosing, it might give good results.

For the chaeto, do you have a power head inside the sump that causes it to tumble? Since cyano is growing on top of it, I believe the flow is too low. Chaeto likes to tumble with flow, this allows all of it to get light and nutrients more evenly. Also keep in mind you can harvest cyano (or any other algae that already grows in your sump) for nutrient export. It doesn't have to be chaeto or another type of macroalgea, those make the harvest easier, but any type of algae can be used. In my case, I harvest a mixture of hairalgae, cotton algae and cyano from my fuge. I use a mesh screen to grow algae on and collect the mesh and harvest the algae that way. So rather than trying to optimize chaeto growth, you can grow and harvest what already is growing inside your sump.

For chaeto, iron might also be a limiting factor. But be very carefull using it, as if it is, it is also the limiting factor for all other algae. Dosing it can cause a bloom of nuisance algae.

 

[jonnybravo22]

It sounds like I need a better import / export regiment.

1. I can cut back on feedings (provided my livestock list can do well eating less than once a day). Do people think that is ok / desirable?

2. I can siphon out the cyano from the sump and effectively "remove" that block of nutrients, which should reset my system since they are out of the water column now anyway and the levels are currently the lower end of my range above (5ppm NO3, 0.07 PO4). I suspect this will come back. Perhaps I can find something better to grow in the sump. I do have a powerhead there, the chaeto doesnt tumble though because i have it clipped to a tube line. If I didn't it would just float around the sump because I don't have any structural support to keep in free tumbling.

3. What level of ALK would be appropriate for 5ppm NO3, 0.07 PO4 ?

 

[Tripod1404]

It sounds like I need a better import / export regiment.

1. I can cut back on feedings (provided my livestock list can do well eating less than once a day). Do people think that is ok / desirable?

2. I can siphon out the cyano from the sump and effectively "remove" that block of nutrients, which should reset my system since they are out of the water column now anyway and the levels are currently the lower end of my range above (5ppm NO3, 0.07 PO4). I suspect this will come back. Perhaps I can find something better to grow in the sump. I do have a powerhead there, the chaeto doesnt tumble though because i have it clipped to a tube line. If I didn't it would just float around the sump because I don't have any structural support to keep in free tumbling.

3. What level of ALK would be appropriate for 5ppm NO3, 0.07 PO4 ?

1- Some people do feed their fish every other day. So depending on what fish you have, it might be okay. You can also try feeding more often with smaller portions so everything is quickly eaten.

2- Yes, siphoning cynao would be nutrient export. You can try mangroves if you want something that is rigid and stable. Although I never used them and dont know how much nutrients they can export, or how difficult is it to keep them, but some people do use them for nutrient export. As they grow out of water, every new leaf is nutrient export. Juts make sure old leaves dont fall back into the sump.

3- Hard to say. This is something that will also depend on your light, DOCs and etc, so it is tank specific. But I would try to be somewhere between 8-8.5 dKH. You would need to find a sweet spot by making small changes and observing how corals respond. A good sign would alk consumption. if they get unhappy, alk consumption will drop. So the value that you have the highest alk consumption per day is the ideal alk value for your tank.

 

[jonnybravo22]

To be honest, I am not a big fan of continuous carbon dosing, but if you can reduce the values and then keep them there without further daily dosing, it might give good results.

Is this because it feels synthetic? Why don't you like it long term?

*Quick pause to thank you for all the contributions that are helping here. If there were a "like" button I would be using it liberally.*

OK so here's where I am on this: I don't have a problem with the algae per se. It's in the sump, doesn't bother me visually since I don't look out there much. But Tripod1404 made a point that is driving my current concern which is that my nutrient levels are not stable. My NO3 and PO4 have both been halved over the course of 2 weeks. Presumably due to the cyano bloom in the sump area. Perhaps this fluctuation is dangerous for the corals. I haven't heard anyone say yet that the absolute levels are bad.

4/21:
1.019 (yeah, brought this up slowly over 2 weeks)
NO3 - 10ppm
PO4 - 0.123 ppm
ALK - 9.0 DKH
CAL - 400

5/8:
1.023
NO3 - 0 - 5ppm
PO4 - 0.071 ppm
ALK - 8.96 DKH (got nervous that it was too low so made a one time adjustment and increased dosing amount; targeting 10DKH)

5/9:
1.024
ALK - 9.86 DKH

5/14:
1.025
ALK - 10.02
CAL - 500 - 520
PO4 - 0.095 (Hanna)
NO3 - 0ppm (API)
PH - 8.2

I'm both concerned that if I don't stabilize the nutrients asap the SPS might decline / die, but also that if I start dosing who knows what will happen. But people seem to have predictable success with this method if procedure is followed and it seems to be cheap.

I've been reading a ton about this over the last few days. I'm leaning towards syphoning out the cyano in the sump and then start vodka dosing in hopes that it will be more stable. I'm a bit surprised that my 55% monthly auto water change setup isn't sufficient for nutrient export! I could increase that (i guess..?) but to what end... feels like i'd be doing 100% water changes a month and paying out the wazoo for salt. Now I'm thinking maybe I decrease my water changes and use vodka for export.

 

[jonnybravo22]

Hello Caution, meet my friend - Wind...

Ok, plan is in motion. When I look back on this, here is my reasoning for my approach:

1. My nutrient levels are unstable, sometimes lower end of OK sometimes higher end of OK, but seesawing back and forth because my system doesn't process the nutrients as fast as I'm putting them in, so it goes from algae bloom, sucking up nutrients down to lower levels, but making horrible algae, in the tank, so then I clean up algae --> nutrients rise as no algae is consuming them --> algae bloom returns.

2. Under the thinking that swinging from 0.05 to .15 PO4 and 0 - 20ppm N03 is too unstable to keep SPS alive, and that the algae that does make it to the base of the frags is bad for coral health, I want a more stable nutrient import / export regiment.

3. I'm adding carbon dosing (in the form of DIY NoPox) so that my system reaches a stable level of consistent export via bacteria encouraged by carbon source which then gets skimmed out.

4. I will now expect to be targeting "low" nutrient system levels (but not necessarily ULNS) of ~0.02 -0.05ppm PO4 and ~0.25 - 5ppm NO3 (my test kit only has sensitivity down to 0 or 5). I'm not looking for 0 / 0.

5. Since I am lowering nutrient levels, I believe I'm supposed to also lower ALK, so I've stopped dosing schedule, and plan to let ALK fall from current value of 10 DKH to 8.5 DKH which is my new target level. I figure it will take a few days (at least) for the bacteria to begin to grow and have any effect on nutrient levels and that should be enough time for ALK to reach the right levels for lower nutrient environment. Sound logic, right?!