Just Trying to Help

[1SaltCreep]

My wife's coworker became interested in the hobby and turned to me for suggestions. After explaining the nitrogen cycle, giving him an old 29g tank w a canister filter, inline heater, and he was off and running. Within a week, he started asking questions about fish problems. He obviously had not cycled the tank, and I soon learned that he went nuts buying fish. About 3 weeks later, he bought a secondhand 75g w HOB filter, xferred all fish, and obviously his problems. After several fish deaths, I told him I would quarantine his fish until he could properly cycle his tank. I set up a 10g quarantine tank and he brought his fish. I had no idea he had purchased so many...and he had polyps and a bta to boot! I immediately noticed that his juvenile blue hippo tang was completely covered in Ich! (Ive dealt with Ich before, but have never seen it this bad on a fish that lived). Here is his stock:

Blue Hippo Tang
Golden Damsel
Yellowtail Damsel
Orange Clowns (2)
Coral Beauty Angel
3 Blue Legged Hermits
Brittle Sea Star
misc snails

I thought that a freshwater dip and/or copper would over-stress the tang, particularly after two tank transfers in as many days plus the tremendous amount of Ich present, so opted to try hyposalinity. I placed the tang in a tank by itself with salinity at 1.009 . Not sure if remaining fish have Ich, but I know they were just as exposed, so should I treat them for Ich prophylactically, using hypo in a 2nd q-tank? Will I have to xfer polyps, nem, sea star, crabs/snails into a 3rd tank?

I currently have (3) 10g tanks, all with Hagen Power filters, submersible heaters, and small power heads. I've got an old 36" Marineland LED I could set across all 3 tanks. I've included a pic of the Hippo Tang, as well as a pic of the female clown and Coral Beauty Angel, that I can't tell if they have the parasite yet or not.

Any input would be appreciated !

 

[CrayolaViolence]

I realize you are just trying to help, and I commend you on that, however you may be setting yourself up for disaster. See, you're not a veterinarian, and what you are doing (by treating his animals) is practicing veterinary medicine. This can put you in a situation of legal and financial culpability. I know you are just trying to help, do the right thing, and be a friend, but in all honesty how well do you know this person, and can you truly trust them not to get angry if the fish should die while in your care and expect you to re-imburse him for all his losses? Common sense says he should know these things, and you are doing him a favor, however we all know the world is short on common sense. Having seen friends sued for just "trying to help" because said friend-in-need decided they couldn't be responsible for their own stupidity, I've come to take a very wary approach with people. I'm not trying to rain on your good deed, but prevent you from heart ache and financial loss.

 

[Elricsfate]

Having seen friends sued for just "trying to help" because said friend-in-need decided they couldn't be responsible for their own stupidity, I've come to take a very wary approach with people. I'm not trying to rain on your good deed, but prevent you from heart ache and financial loss.

Sad...but true.

 

[1SaltCreep]

Well, I was hoping for a response on the best course of action, since most ppl treat their own fish. When drafting this thread, I erased the long story I had written, in the interest of brevity.

I am not a veterinarian. I have raised many animals on a farm while growing up and can tell you that not every illness was followed by a vet bill. We also relied on neighbors for their expertise. We would all go broke otherwise. In this case, I have written proof that he not only asked me to take these fish, but first offered to give them to me for free, and get out of the hobby. I also have written proof that there were no guarantees that any or all of his livestock may die in the process. He has also written to me that he feels horrible for killing fish and doesn't want it to happen anymore due to his lack of good husbandry. Since he acknowledged the responsibility of his choices of aquatic animals relying on him for their survival, I felt that there was hope for him and that he shouldn't get out of the hobby. He's not set up to handle this and has no knowledge. My first and consistent message for him was to research, buy/advance slow, and seek the advice of others. I guess he could sue me for the equipment I gave him too, if it ever burned his house down or he electrocuted himself. Or, to preserve my legal standing, I could have not offered to help him out and let him kill his remaining livestock. He doesn't know anyone else in the hobby and the only LFS within 100 miles sold him the fish knowing he was only a week into his setup.

As a deputy sheriff, I often had to put down injured/rabid animals, usually after vehicle strikes (I wasn't a vet then either). It seemed that every time I put down a dog, the owner arrived convinced they could have saved the dog. I am well aware of the liability of having someone else's animal die by my hand, but never ever had a successful claim against me or the dept. My point here is also that I refuse to live that way...afraid of being sued for anything. In this sue-happy age, I wouldn't be able to step out my house. During all this inaction, the animal suffers/dies. So does it mean that if I seek fragging advice from someone on this forum, then decide to frag my dog, I could sue them? There's no end to the list of things a person could sue you for. Bottom line, is that in this case, I like my odds and don't see it as much of a gamble. I appreciate you looking out for my best interests, but I've got this.

 

[1SaltCreep]

Day #2 - Hippo Tang died. I heard it splashing at the surface, but when I got to her, she was dead. I gently held her in the water and softly stroked her sides from front to back. I set her back on the bottom of the tank, while I went for a specimen cup. When I returned, she was swimming on her own again! I immediately checked for ammonia, and since it was a little high, performed a midnight water change to bring it way down. I then stayed up the rest of the night, researching the stickys on this forum, and gleaned quite a bit of useful info on the hypo process. I see now that I had dropped the salinity to 1.009 immediately, instead of incrementally over four days. I believe she may have been splashing in a last gasp for oxygenated water. During the WC, I raised the salinity back up to 1.020 , believing that she had endured way too much stress. Now, 12 hours later, she seems to be doing much better. Coincidentally, it seems as though she's lost quite a few of the white spots. I haven't seen her actually eat, even tho I tried feeding her mysis via syringe. I've also placed a small piece of nori strapped to LR rubble, but no joy. I'm prepped now for daily 50% WC at 1.020 . If/when she starts eating ok, I'll restart the process of dropping the salinity...slowly this time.

The remaining 5 fish in the 2nd tank appear to be doing ok. It's hard to tell if any of them have spots, but I'm keeping close eye on them. Salinity in this tank has been kept constant at 1.020 . Altho this tank also had an ammonia spike, it was less than the 1st tank, and a 50% WC fixed that...for today. These 5 fish appear to be eating ok and the angel really took to the nori when offered.

As for the nem and polyps, I performed a coral dip on both, then placed them in one of my smaller DTs. The nem even ate a very small piece of krill today too. Surprisingly, the polyps opened up within about 2 hours. The snails, sea star, and 2 pep shrimp were placed in the same DT, so I am down to only 2 hospital tanks.

I've also made arrangements for the fishes' owner to come here after work to assist with the WCs, feeding, and journal entries, thereby making him a part of the recovery and possibly learning some husbandry along the way. This should alleviate any civil litigation as well...

 

[CrayolaViolence]

So does it mean that if I seek fragging advice from someone on this forum, then decide to frag my dog, I could sue them?

There is a huge difference between reading about what someone else is doing then choosing to do it (and yes in some situations you could sue depending on the advice) and actually treating someone else's animals. It doesn't matter who you are, what your life experiences are, or how well meaning your actions are, when you dip into practicing veterinary medicine on *someone else's animals* not your own, then you are opening yourself up for liability. As I said, I commend you on trying to help. But legally, what you are doing is wrong.

 

[1SaltCreep]

Its with his consent! Besides, are you practicing law without a license here? I'm trying to maintain 2 hospital tanks, and 3 DTs. I needed an answer, not time-consuming banter about ethics/law. You're not helping me one iota with this sideline crap. I'll keep to my own viewpoint of the law, since it hasn't let me down in 55 years. Thanx for taking my time and not addressing the question asked. Do you want to argue about their color or something next? Urghh!

Thanx for your input.

 

[Janetsplanet]

Its with his consent! Besides, are you practicing law without a license here? I'm trying to maintain 2 hospital tanks, and 3 DTs. I needed an answer, not time-consuming banter about ethics/law. You're not helping me one iota with this sideline crap. I'll keep to my own viewpoint of the law, since it hasn't let me down in 55 years. Thanx for taking my time and not addressing the question asked. Do you want to argue about their color or something next? Urghh!

Thanx for your input.

There are good people in this world. You do you!

Otherwise, I have zero advice to offer. Make sure you're feeding nutritious foods, it's all over the internet/forums fish do better when they're fed right.

 

[neiltus]

I don't see this as him playing vet. I doubt any court would find merit in a lawsuit. Especially in MT.

I lunged a horse today for a friend that was out of town. I also picked it's hooves, applied medicine to a fungal issue near the fetlock and fed/grazed it. I don't have anything in writing and it's a 6 figure horse.

My son played with the barn cat and fed him. Guess he is a vet too.

Picking up a litter of puppies that some idiot dumped in the middle of the tollway and having them trash my wife's brand new car, does not make me a vet, nor an ambulance driver.

Handling or caring for an animal at the owner's request is not practicing medicine. Giving meds is not practicing medicine.

OP-I am sorry for the situation, there is a ton of info on this forum. Your friend made some less than wise decisions.

1.02 is not Hypo. Meds/dipping might be better. I would treat as you would with a new fish from the store.

I apologize that you came here to seek help and intelligence and all you got was a lecture.

 

[ThRoewer]

I'm worried that you may be dealing with more than just ich. Unfortunately the pictures are not clear enough to be certain.
You definitely should get a broad band antibiotic to combat possible secondary bacterial infections.

 

[pfan151]

I'd put all the fish in one 10 gallon tank (bigger would be better if you have it) and keep the second for the tank transfer method. That way all of the fist will basically be guaranteed free of ich in less than 2 weeks. I would also do a formalin dip on all of the fish before starting the TTM and add prazi pro to the first and 3rd transfer tank. You'll definitely need prime and maybe more frequent transfers with that many fish. That will give all of the fish the best chance IMO

 

[neiltus]

To add to what pfan said, read the sticky on doing TTM in this forum. Tank not being used needs to be possibly disinfected, and dried completely or it's useless. I also believe that spore can travel some 12~ft in air from an active tank. So two rooms.

 

[1SaltCreep]

Thank you Janetsplanet and neiltus. I've always found this forum chock full of knowledgeable hobbyists who are free with that knowledge. I turn here to tap into that knowledge as part of my researching.

Neilus - I brought the salinity up to ease the stress on the fish after her miraculous revival, but didn't want to raise it so fast to get it all the way to 1.026, as the info on the sticky said that raising salinity at the end of treatment was more critical to do slowly than dropping the salinity. I didn't know that about transfer through the air. I've got quite the fish tank farm going on her now.

Day #3. Woke up this am to a dead fish. Really dead this time. The Hippo Tang couldn't take all I had been doing to her. I had not seen her eat since I got her, but had hoped that her youth would keep her alive til I got her eating again. The fish's owner was notified and he's ok w it. Took the blame for allowing her to get in that shape to begin with. The other 5 fish are at 1.026 salinity and eating ok. I'll snap off a shot of them in a min.

ThRower: Are you suggesting I should treat w antibiotics instead or in addition to treating for Ich? The bottom line on the 5 remaining fish is that I've haven't really done anything for them, other than placing them into a q-tank.

I was able to go a better photo of the female clown. Pretty sure this is Ich...
Pretty hard to tell if Yellow Damsel has spots. She's eating/moving around ok.

 

[Elricsfate]

Its with his consent! Besides, are you practicing law without a license here? I'm trying to maintain 2 hospital tanks, and 3 DTs. I needed an answer, not time-consuming banter about ethics/law. You're not helping me one iota with this sideline crap. I'll keep to my own viewpoint of the law, since it hasn't let me down in 55 years. Thanx for taking my time and not addressing the question asked. Do you want to argue about their color or something next? Urghh!

Thanx for your input.

You are correct sir, he is in fact advising you on legal matters presumably without being a licensed attorney in your state...and therefore, breaking the law. :lmao:

 

[ThRoewer]

Antibiotics would be an addition to the ich treatment. The clownfish definitely looks like he has a secondary bacterial infection. Those are quite common with severe ich cases and often the actual cause of death.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[ThRoewer]

After looking at the picture of the clownfish on my computer I would not want to exclude Brooklynella or Trichodina.

 

[1SaltCreep]

I've got the salinity of all fish at 1.013 now, and wb transferring to new 10g tank tmoro (when the ordered antibiotics arrive). I've got the other tank running, and the parameters are matched up. Oddly, the clown in question seems to have lost some of the "dusting" and now has just the white spots, and they seem more defined, if that makes sense. They're all still eating and moving about the little tank well.

 

[pfan151]

1.013 won't do anything for ich. Hypo isn't the best option for treatment. Have you done any formalin dips on the clowns? Looks like it could be brook to me but if they are still eating and not already dead then maybe it is just ich.

 

[1SaltCreep]

Ok. So since dropping salinity slightly, I haven't really done much as far as treatment goes. If I slowly bring the salinity back up (.003/day) til it's back to 1.026, then I can begin TTM treating with antibiotics at same time?

 

[neiltus]

Moving salinity all over the place thinking your going to have a fix is futile. Some cysts have issues at lower salinity, but honestly if the fish has symptoms, your past that point.

You need to go to meds. Read threads on TTM, Formalin MS (and how to do it), Prazipro, etc. A broad spectrum antibiotic might help as well. You will need a lot of airline tubing, some air stones (discarded after use), an air pump or two, and a means to sterilize tanks or buckets for TTM between uses.

Hypo is tricky and it's not always the best course of action.

Raising salinity too fast is a good way to kill fish. I don't know off the top of my head but I think it is one PPT every 4-6 hours. A drop in salinity is not nearly as harsh as a rise is on kidney function.