Kalkwasser top-off method- I really need some help

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So for those of you who are using limewater as your top off, how are you introducing it to the system? I would prefer not to use a gravity drip. Do you use a dosing pump that you can program?

I use a diaphragm type of pump, a reef filler (actually 2 of them for redundancy) controlled by a float switch.

Lots of peristaltic pumps are also fine, like the litermeter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

2.5 cups of water at top-off, over 3/4 gallon per day.

2.5 cups added to the sump turns it milky? How big is the sump? How much flow?

 

[Brian DeGolier]

The chamber that the limewater enters is about 4 gallons, it is where the return pump is located. I have been thinking about running the vinyl tubing to the chamber where the water enters the sump from the display and where the filter sock and skimmer are located. The next chamber is the refugium, all contained in a 20 gal high aquarium. The aquarium does have good flow, the return pump is rated at 960 gph.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

...I have been thinking about running the vinyl tubing to the chamber...
This vinyl tubing is the one that is hooked to the pump inside the limewater bucket.. I should be more clear.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So 2.5 cups is added to 4 gallons. That's about 4% of the sump volume. Even adding 1.25% of the sump volume will boost pH in it by about 0.6 to 0.7 pH units, so 4% is going to instantly precipitate a lot of magnesium hydroxide due to very high pH. That will redissolve at lower pH in the main tank.

If it is quickly swept away into the main tank, you might avoid the much more concerning precipitation of calcium carbonate, which will not redissolve. But I am concerned it will not be removed quickly enough and you'll get a lot of calcium carbonate too.


A smaller addition each time would be a lot better.

 

[surfjeepzx]

From my first 40 gallon shallow softy tank to my full blown nuclear powered :lol: sps tank I still dose my Ka the same way. I'll add up front that I've NEVER had an issue with my top off system. As long as you observe proper cleaning and routine maintenance of the moving parts.

In the old days I used a 5 gallon Culligan water jug with air-line tubing fitted through the cap to a Kent Float Valve drilled through the side of the sump at the running water level. (and if I remember that was in a rubbermaid sump).
I would mix the 2 x 5 =10 spoons of Ka into the container, shake, connect cap, shove under tank. I had several of these containers that I would prefill and have set aside. back then with the simple VHO light set-up the 5 gallons lasted about 5-6 days. It was bullet proof.

Today I have a 150 gallon system and still dose the Ka in a similar manner. Except now I use pickling lime and two part. The mechanics of the system are: Acrylic sump with Kent Float Valve drilled through the side at running water level. One 5 gallon bucket next to the stand (I have to get a cabinet soon to house the bucket) A 3/8" hose connected to a push-lock style shut-off valve connected to the bucket about 5" above the bottom. I never allow the settled Ka to enter the sump. Only the clarified water. The hose goes around the back of the tank to the Float Valve. At the float valve I have another similar push-lock style shut off valve. (If you have enough room under the cabinet put the bucket under there)

In addition I have a line from the RO/Di system feeding the top off bucket where I use a different type of float valve (forget the type) and a shut-off valve to drop the line pressure.

That's it! Water level in sump drops, the float valve drips water in to compensate. With an SPS tank the demand for Ka is far greater than with a softy tank. Since my top-off bucket is consantly being topped off it becomes a trial and error system to find the schedule of adding the Ka to the bucket which will be based on the amount of evaporation. Furthermore evapoarion changes in our home based on season. Currently the weather here in Central FL is awesome so the windows are open 24/7. When the A/C is on evaporation actually increases. Currently I add one heaping tablespoon of pickling lime every 3 days.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

If it is quickly swept away into the main tank, you might avoid the much more concerning precipitation of calcium carbonate, which will not redissolve. But I am concerned it will not be removed quickly enough and you'll get a lot of calcium carbonate too.
Randy, above when you mention calcium carbonate, it sounds like I need to avoid having it sit around in the sump where it can turn into CA carbonate, I need to send it into the display ASAP, or dose it very slowly, by way of a perilstalic doser?

 

[bertoni]

The kalk needs to disperse rapidly throughout the system to avoid the precipitation of calcium carbonate (limestone), or it needs to be dosed more slowly. A peristaltic pump is perfect for that.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

I may consider a peristaltic pump again, idefinately seems to the best way to drip. This is the 2nd go around for a kalk drip method and before I used a Kent doser, I thought it was worthless and tried a DIY method with a 2 liter and it clogged up and I did not trust it. I even got a hose with a roller used in the ER, but it still clogged easily too. I'm going to try one other idea, and that is to dump the limewater top-off into the filter sock, it has 960 gph going into it, I'm sure that would disperse it rapidly, or, a larger pump and disperse the limewater directly into the tank. Your thoughts? Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[tmz]

If your calcium is that low I think slowly raising your sg to 1.026 over a period of several days will help. What salt mix are you using?

Tom, I am using Instant Ocean Marine salt, not reef salt, although I plan to check out reef specific type of salt when the bucket is done. I added a little more salt water on Tuesday and the SG is up a little now 1.025. The CA is still the same at around 300, the is ALK about 6 Degrees, but I still need to get a new dKH kit, although I honestly do not think there will be too much of a difference with the test kit I have now, I sure it's 9 months old or so.
Do yo think I should try a reef salt? I've heard good and bad about them, supposedly they have big swings in ALK and CA. I'll poke around on RC, see what I find. Thanks. Brian

I think Instant Ocean is fine. I just wanted to know the type of salt used to see if it was high in calcium or not.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

Thanks Surfjeep: I think I have a pretty good picture of what you arre talking about, of course a picture or diagram would help, but don't worry about it, I appreciate your time to type this out. Above you mentioned: I never allow the settled Ka to enter the sump. Only the clarified water I think that is the main thing that I need to concern myself with. If I just top-off the display tank with the limewater via the pump in the top-off bucket, connect it to the eductor in the display tank so that it disperses very quickly, that should be the my main goal? what are your thoughts.......? Do I understand this simple concept which I have made very difficult on myself? keep the lime out of the sump and top-off in the main tank?? This would be very simple, a matter of buying more tubing and a barbed L connector. I'm here at work, paying no attention to my project and making my hardware list tonight. Let me know your thoughts. thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adding the top off to the main tank itself risks getting the high pH cloud onto delicate organisms, so in the sump more slowly is better than to the main tank, although to the main tank slowly is OK.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

Randy, that's what I'm gonna do, I'll try it directly in the main tank, zip tie the tubing to an eductor to mix it up thoroughly. We'll see what happens, I may rekindle this posting next week, but the way that I am doing this now is just not working. Thanks for the help to you and everyone else, but feel free to send me comments, I'll be checking.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, good luck.

 

[Brian DeGolier]

Randy-
The method seems to work okay as I am routing the kalkwasser top-off directly into the display tank dispersed by an eductor to avoid accumulation of CA carbonate in the sump. The CA seems to be steady at 310 ppm, the Alk dKH is 4.5 ppm. I'm going to do a big WC tomorrow to try to take out some CA chloride that may have accumulated from weeks of bringing the CA up. I'll bump up both the CA and Alk - especially ALK with a part A & B in the next few weeks, or some other method, not CA chloride. I think the CA chloride may have done more harm than good. Thanks for your advice, you definately are the reef chemist.
Brian

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

4.5 dKH?

Calcium is only 310 ppm now?

 

[Brian DeGolier]

4.5 dKH?
Calcium is only 310 ppm now?

Hello Randy, it's been awhile, remember me? I wanted to let the system stabilize before I posted again.
The dKH is about 5.0 - 5.5 per my new Tropic Marin test kit, and CA about 330 ppm per Salifert. These were taken just yesterday after I have been on vacation for 4 days, I wanted to let the system settle a little to get an accurate result with only limewater top-off. So, I think I am a candidate for Alk and CA supplimentation. I have been using Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium in the past and it seemed to work okay until my aragonite sand bed was noticably thinner, so the CA demands increased that's when I started to consider a new method of increasing the CA. With the alk buffer that is in the T.M. Biocalcium and CO2 and other trace elements etc., I think that this is a good way to go at least for my system, and I actually started to use it before Christmas and the dKH and CA started to increase and stabilize. At this point, I think this is what I am going to do in addition to limewater top-off. I wish I did not have to spend extra $ for the Bio-Calcium, but no one ever said this was a hobby that did not liquidate the wallet. I would prefer not to maintain with CA chloride, becuase I have been reading how it increases the chloride in the overall system with constant use. Any other comments from you or anyone I certainly do welcome. I appreciate your help. Happy Holidays. Brian

 

[bertoni]

I'd increase the alkalinity and calcium with baking soda and calcium chloride, and then dose the Bio-Calcium to maintain the levels. For the long term, a calcium reactor would be able to maintain the levels, if you don't want to use the Bio-Calcium. There's a DIY 2-part formula that would save some money and not be as expensive to set up as a calcium reactor, although it would add sodium and chloride over time. Water changes will control that.

 

[Mattik]

Randy,

I am going to start dosing kalk via ATO. Just curious as to how quickly I can dose without having problems.

I would guess my topoff dosage to be about .5 gal/day. With my current pump, it will flow about 5 cups per minute. It will dose into my sump (about 10 gal section).

I have a valve to adjust flow, so I could tighten that up a little more, but just curious on your thoughts on this set up.

Also, I would say I have a light coral load, but I plan to stock up slowly by adding one or two LPS/SPS per month over several months. Just curious if I should start with a low saturation on the kalk until coral load is up. I will test of course, but don't want to over do it right outta the shoot.

 

[tmz]

Hi Brian, a couple of thoughts.

The 1.023 sg will carry less calcium and alkalinity than the 1.026 level. So the low sg could contribute significantly to the lower levels you are experiencing.


I think mixing the 14 tsps of kalk directly into 7 gallons of water would result in less precipitation. Mixing 14 tsps in 1 gallon of water will likely cause some of it to precipitate in the mixing container. A covered container is all you need. The kalk wasser will hold its strength for weeks in a covered but unsealed container.

Dosing for top off per day is fine but how much you dose at any one time is important too. Spreading it out over the longest period of time possible is the best course. As a maximum to prevent ph spikes and precipitation , a dose of no more than 1/4 tsp of kalk powder per 50 gallons of water volume in any hour is recommended by Sprung and Delbeek in the Reef Aquarium Vol 2.So your 3/4 gallon daily dose(96ozs) at 2tsps per gallon would hold 1.5 tsps of powder in solution. For your 75 gallons of water volume ,you could dose 3/8ths tsp per hour or roughly 24 ozs per hour of the fully saturated kalk water into a high flow area as a relatively safe maximum. This would reqiure speading the daily 96ozs out via drip or a dosing pump or manual dosing at least 4x during the 24 hour top off period.

I use a still reservoir consisting of a brute garbage can. I mix the kalk into a full can of ro/di water and stir it in with a length of pvc pipe. Let it sit for an hour or two and turn on the pump. It lasts about a week. The kalk wasser is dosed from it via a peristaltic pump, (a liter meter 3) which spreads the set daily top off dose over 24 hours in 150 equal increments.