Don't attempt to feed your corals, if currently are. Especially if you're not changing those filter socks out every few days. I'd say nitrate export and excessive detritus is your main issue. I'd also still like to see your main levels (Alk, Ca and Mag) a lot closer to the levels of the newly mixed RSCP saltwater.
Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.
- Thread starter kurfer
- Start date
Reefer54
New member
I agree that detritus needs to be addressed above. If nutrients are not be exported from your system, clearly that is an issue which must be addressed first.... However, a deep sand bed is not a nutrient sink if implemented and properly maintained. On the contrary, it is a very efficient means of nitrate reduction in a system. Notice i recommended a REMOTE DSB.....this is to assume that organics in the water column have been efficiently removed prior to water passing through\over the DSB. Even DT's with a DSB that are properly maintained offer a great buffering ability and Nitrate reduction.
Phane, i encourage you to take a deeper look into the benefits of deep sand beds.
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Ok, after reading all these extremely helpful replies (thank you!) I think my strategy is going to be around keeping my nitrates at or below .5 and phosphates at or below .03 (currently they are).
The catch, i'm going to remove the biopellets as it's just another variable. I'm going to go with the keep it simple stupid approach. I think my alk is too low in the 7's so i'm going to work on raising it slowly to 8.5.
Params i'm going to shoot for:
Alk 8.5
Calc 440
Mag 1350
nitrates <= .5
phosphates <= .03
Detritus is currently enemy #1, I simply can't remove what I can't see. Blowing off my rocks with a turkey baster doesn't shoot clouds of junk into my water and visibly I can't see the stuff. My rocks look clean as does my sump; i'm sure it's there so I gotta figure out how to ensure it's not causing my nitrates.
I am also removing filter socks tomorrow while watching my nitrates and phosphates closely.
i'll worry about ULNS some other day, it appears to me that's its easier to have some nitrates and phosphates while running higher alk than it is keeping alk around 7ish and undetectable no3/po4. Zeo/pellets/carbon is just another variable that will end up burning me out of this hobby.
The catch, i'm going to remove the biopellets as it's just another variable. I'm going to go with the keep it simple stupid approach. I think my alk is too low in the 7's so i'm going to work on raising it slowly to 8.5.
Params i'm going to shoot for:
Alk 8.5
Calc 440
Mag 1350
nitrates <= .5
phosphates <= .03
Detritus is currently enemy #1, I simply can't remove what I can't see. Blowing off my rocks with a turkey baster doesn't shoot clouds of junk into my water and visibly I can't see the stuff. My rocks look clean as does my sump; i'm sure it's there so I gotta figure out how to ensure it's not causing my nitrates.
I am also removing filter socks tomorrow while watching my nitrates and phosphates closely.
i'll worry about ULNS some other day, it appears to me that's its easier to have some nitrates and phosphates while running higher alk than it is keeping alk around 7ish and undetectable no3/po4. Zeo/pellets/carbon is just another variable that will end up burning me out of this hobby.
sorry, I did not see the 'remote' in your post, my apologies. do you have any good links on dsb's that are not related to shiemek & associates?
Great idea!
Try and suck up any detritus from the surface of the sand VERY CAREFULLY when doing water changes. The last thing you ever want to do is disturb the sandbed, deep or shallow, there's some nasty stuff in there! Good luck!
Even with a shallow sandbed? I would be afraid that if I didn't clean/siphon heavily weekly that it would get out of control. One of the reasons I didn't run DSB in my tank is that I didn't want a timebomb on my hands.
Figured remote DSB was the only approach.
I read lots of conflicting reports on whether to weekly stir/siphon shallow sand beds. I know the vividcoral guys like to stir their beds...
what cha got in your sump? I run my system very KISS. barebottom, nothing besides a 55 dt, 55 sump, a few powerheads and a return pump (no skimmer, im poor, one to come soonish). I did have a filter sock that I replaced every 2-3days, this system does extremely well to limit phosphates, as in I have no algae and only had to clean the glass once a week, but I do not know what my phos reading was because I have no hanna tester or of the equivalent. I just know my monti grew 1/8th in to 1/4th in a month and all my euyphilla were growing like weeds, trumpet, acans, paly's all do well, with 30% monthly water changes and blowing out the rocks each week I maintained low phos and 10-20 nitrate, I also vacuumed out the bottom of my sump at this time for any fine detritus.
but im an experimenter and I, well, experimented. I wanted a kole tang so I haulted maintenance to let detritus build up in the sump to grow some algae. I wanted algae so when I introduced the tang he had something natural to eat since I figured it would take him awhile to eat what I had to offer. that worked and 2 weeks later when he started warming up he was fat. stressed out still, but fat and started taking my food. two months later he is stress free and healthy. the downside... my nitrates went thru the roof. phosphates were easy to get back under control. I just vacuumed out my sump and redeployed my filter socks & changing then 2-3 days and a week later I stopped growing algae.
but now, since my nutrients are normal again I have recently takin my filter sock off and just let everything settle in the sump and my nitrates have dropped a lil. when I did a water change they would be right around 10 and by the end of the month they would be near 20ppm and so far they have not gone as high as before.
and that's my story.
Reefer54
New member
no apologies necessary with me Phane, ever. haha......no worries at all.
Here are few. But there is a LOT on here if you search Remote Deep Sand Bed.....and a lot of differing opinions too... I currently run a 9in bed in my sump, and will go remote with the new tank around the corner....ran one in my last tank too. the remote concept is new to me, but i am all in as i love the idea of taking it offline or rejuvenating it without effecting my DT very much at all.
any way.....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268433&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=896352&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed
that's exactly why you want to siphon the sandbed... why let that stuff just sit there and rot, your only adding to nutrients.
before I add those to my list of reading material for tomorrow, answer a few questions for me?
-you say properly cared for DSB's and RDSB's, is this inferring these threads understand that there does need to be proper maintenance with sand, whether it be weekly, monthly maint. or just not touching it much and replacing the whole thing every x amount of years?
-do these threads understand that sandbeds will sink nutrients and that your trying to create an environment to support the must have organism's?
-do they understand that the more organisms, the higher the total nutrient load in the system?
My sump has a lifereef skimmer in it (very large for my volume) (36-inch, rated for 300-600g system)
2 7 inch filter socks (large sump), I took out the black sponge that sits between the middle and final return chamber. Replaced it will a PURA filter I change out monthly.
There are two ceramic 8" x 8" x 1" Plate MarinePure blocks sitting below my socks. That's it, everything else is bare bottom...my reactors feed the middle bay where my skimmer is.
Reefer54
New member
-remote you dont touch. DT and in my opinion sump DSB's need to be agitated. I do it weekly with water changes. Funny, i never blow off my rocks, i let the worms eat that stuff.
-these threads will discuss many aspects of DSBs, and yes, they outright warn that DSB can become nutrient sinks. There is advective flow through a sandbed which must be considered. I even heard one guy who is going to go back to a plenum and try to make the plenum layer accesible via pvc.....but that is not in those threads....great idea in full.
-I would need a definition of the word "they". But i am sure that some of the long timers like Calfo would understand the idea of bio load on an enclosed environment......but i dont know; it depends on who "they" is\are.
they are good reads.....the basics are pretty much front-loaded, then you can thread search or jump to more current dates on any of them and still kind of pick up whereever a good question is asked if you like....they are long, but good reads.
-these threads will discuss many aspects of DSBs, and yes, they outright warn that DSB can become nutrient sinks. There is advective flow through a sandbed which must be considered. I even heard one guy who is going to go back to a plenum and try to make the plenum layer accesible via pvc.....but that is not in those threads....great idea in full.
-I would need a definition of the word "they". But i am sure that some of the long timers like Calfo would understand the idea of bio load on an enclosed environment......but i dont know; it depends on who "they" is\are.
they are good reads.....the basics are pretty much front-loaded, then you can thread search or jump to more current dates on any of them and still kind of pick up whereever a good question is asked if you like....they are long, but good reads.
IMO, if you're siphoning and stirring up your sandbed every time you do a water change, then that's another big reason for the issues you're having. I'm sure others may disagree, but there only one thing I do with a sandbed, deep, shallow or whatever... and that's leave it alone at all costs.
Reefer54
New member
siphoning and agitating are two different things. siphoning from the bottom of a sandbed is going to raise nutrient load to the main water instead allowing it to exist suspended below the surface. Agitating the surface 1" or less of sand will do the same but before the organics have really broken down....allowing us to remove them and not let the sand bed become a nutrient sink.....snails can do this for us, nassarius are great. agitation, not siphoning.
I often run my finger up to the first knuckle through the sand in areas of lower flow or behind rocks....agitation.
I often run my finger up to the first knuckle through the sand in areas of lower flow or behind rocks....agitation.
im used to long threads lmao... doesn't phase me, but sounds like they are good reads.
kurfer, in my 10g I clean it every week. I have always wondered when detritus breaking down would start affecting water quality. after 1 week it would still test very low nitrates but if I didn't clean it for 2 weeks in a row my nitrates would be anywhere between 20-30. this is part of the reason why ive decided to go with no filter sock on my display tank. higher flow, higher o2, more bacterial activity breaking down detritus in the socks adding to the inorganic nutrients. something to think about before you let your filtersocks go without maintenance again.
what exactly is the PURA filter?
the ceramic sounds legit, there is a company that makes artificial liverock from ceramic and has studied the porosity of it to try and get their rock perfect.
are you guys familiar with bacterial flock? autotrophic bacteria liberate phosphates from liverock, its then incorporated into their beings then they shed/die and by natural processes they are pushed out of the liverock. when you blow off your rock that's what this dust is. well that and any poop and what have you that's on the rock. this bacterial flock contains a bit of phosphate. coral will eat the bacterial flock, im not sure about worms and such tho. I didn't really see my bristle worms in my 10g looking to the bacterial flock for food. and I had a lot of it since my rocks I put in there were filled with phosphate.
kurfer, in my 10g I clean it every week. I have always wondered when detritus breaking down would start affecting water quality. after 1 week it would still test very low nitrates but if I didn't clean it for 2 weeks in a row my nitrates would be anywhere between 20-30. this is part of the reason why ive decided to go with no filter sock on my display tank. higher flow, higher o2, more bacterial activity breaking down detritus in the socks adding to the inorganic nutrients. something to think about before you let your filtersocks go without maintenance again.
what exactly is the PURA filter?
the ceramic sounds legit, there is a company that makes artificial liverock from ceramic and has studied the porosity of it to try and get their rock perfect.
are you guys familiar with bacterial flock? autotrophic bacteria liberate phosphates from liverock, its then incorporated into their beings then they shed/die and by natural processes they are pushed out of the liverock. when you blow off your rock that's what this dust is. well that and any poop and what have you that's on the rock. this bacterial flock contains a bit of phosphate. coral will eat the bacterial flock, im not sure about worms and such tho. I didn't really see my bristle worms in my 10g looking to the bacterial flock for food. and I had a lot of it since my rocks I put in there were filled with phosphate.
I'll agree with that, but I have a feeling many people misunderstand this concept and buy a substrate siphon tube from petco and go nuts in an attempt to clean their sand by "vacuuming it." A sand sifting goby may be another good idea for people who wish to agitate their sandbed.
how is siphoning raising the nutrients to the water column when your physically removing the nutrients and the surrounding water?
Because you're not really getting ALL of the crap out, even if it looks like it. You're removing some, and stirring up more, which is making its way into to main water column and contaminating your water.
if you have proper flow going over the sandbed then the amount of detritus that actually gets in there isn't going to be anything compared to what gets broken down in a filter sock. the more you clean your sand the less nutrient there are going to be in the sand, period. it shows at the end when you let the bucket settle down and look in to see that weeks catch. I do not understand how leaving the detritus in is going to cause less nutrients then taking the detritus out completely, that is contradictory. we have had problems at TRT with members that ritually clean sand each week with their not being enough organic nutrients for softies. that is a common problem for members that are newer to the 'keep it clean' concept and are not experienced enough to balance out their cleaning so a lil detritus gets a chance to break down and then provide nutrients.
this is the point in a softies/lps system, except for the mix up more part. you don't want to get it ALL, its rather impossible. you still need there to be some for softies and lps, they need it. just like with everything else, there are correct ways, eh screw it ways and wrong ways to do things. siphoning sand should still be a careful process as to not disturb the dirty sand not yet cleaned as to not try and mix up things before it gets siphoned out.
or you could do it the way you guys say and leave it in, remove the top stuff so minimal sinks to the bottom and stays there, as long as you understand its going to build up, phosphates are going to bind with caco, organisms are going to thrive, the total nutrient load is going to go up and eventually you will need to replace the sandbed. cleaning the sandbed routinely is going to keep detritus in the sandbed to a minimum keeping the nutrient load lower and substrate replacement will be further apart.
several ways to skin a cat here, but the point is the nutrients are either there in the system or they are not. nutrients swept under the rug are not nutrients takin out to the trashcan.
this is the point in a softies/lps system, except for the mix up more part. you don't want to get it ALL, its rather impossible. you still need there to be some for softies and lps, they need it. just like with everything else, there are correct ways, eh screw it ways and wrong ways to do things. siphoning sand should still be a careful process as to not disturb the dirty sand not yet cleaned as to not try and mix up things before it gets siphoned out.
or you could do it the way you guys say and leave it in, remove the top stuff so minimal sinks to the bottom and stays there, as long as you understand its going to build up, phosphates are going to bind with caco, organisms are going to thrive, the total nutrient load is going to go up and eventually you will need to replace the sandbed. cleaning the sandbed routinely is going to keep detritus in the sandbed to a minimum keeping the nutrient load lower and substrate replacement will be further apart.
several ways to skin a cat here, but the point is the nutrients are either there in the system or they are not. nutrients swept under the rug are not nutrients takin out to the trashcan.
