Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.
- Thread starter kurfer
- Start date
Never had any problem with fish only lost 2 ever; I made an idiot mistake of adding the 2 black clowns which I think caused one of my existing orange clowns to jump. Was mad at myself over that one... lesson learned.
I had a blue chromis jump; was the first pair I added to the tank after I cycled it for the first time I think the other one that's alive today bullied him.
That's all iv'e lost thus far since I started.
BigCountry74
New member
Speaking of jumpers. I had a brackish green congo puffer I converted to full salt. That thing was nicknamed "ROCKY" (unkillable). It was stung twice by my foxface during feedings. Would float to the bottom paralyzed then 15 min later perk back up and swim off. Then it jumped out once. I came home and it was on the floor (I had no clue how long it had been out but I thought for sure it was dead). I slowly brought it back into the tank water and a few days later it was good to go. The most bad *** fish I have ever owned...lol I finally had to donate it back to the LFS because it started shredding my LPS. 
alton
Well-known member
Like a couple other mentioned add more leds. When I had my Wesophyllia they would always shrink up when my CFLs needed to be changed. Birdsnest is a low light SPS, I have kept it in a PAR level as low as 100. FYI I have a friend who had 2 Hydras on a 65 and his tank looked awesome, but moving everything over to a 5' tank he now has 5 Hydras
This is heresy by some standards and feel free to try everyone else's ideas first but stop using GFO. These papers help explain the role phosphate plays with Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellates:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf
And I'll note that Kleypas, et al, (1999) looked at almost a thousand reefs and found an average PO4 of .13 mg/l, Kingman Island, one of the most pristine reefs in the world, has .1 mg/l PO4.
And PO4 in this system was ≈.4 mg/l with Elos Pro: http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf
And I'll note that Kleypas, et al, (1999) looked at almost a thousand reefs and found an average PO4 of .13 mg/l, Kingman Island, one of the most pristine reefs in the world, has .1 mg/l PO4.
And PO4 in this system was ≈.4 mg/l with Elos Pro: http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg
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Redrosetuscan
New member
I haven't read the whole thread but.....
I'd be turning all light off at night. The figures you showed must actually be quite bright at night time, where a period of total darkness is required.
I had some problems when I had hydra 52's and ran them at 1% on the blue at night. Changed to total darkness and saw improvement.
I'll also say that those lights don't do the spread they say, they may well be ok for softies and perhaps lps at covering a large area but for sps they are a very direct light source which needs to be high up and have probably double the recomended amount. At least you do have yours quite high up though.
Shame you can't get an icp test there. Very helpfull test, for all you know you may have a lot of heavy metals in the water. Don't assume you don't as there's lots of surprised people over here including myself, copper, tin, lead all making their way in with no apparant answer why ( flake food and maricultured bases I reckon).
I'd be turning all light off at night. The figures you showed must actually be quite bright at night time, where a period of total darkness is required.
I had some problems when I had hydra 52's and ran them at 1% on the blue at night. Changed to total darkness and saw improvement.
I'll also say that those lights don't do the spread they say, they may well be ok for softies and perhaps lps at covering a large area but for sps they are a very direct light source which needs to be high up and have probably double the recomended amount. At least you do have yours quite high up though.
Shame you can't get an icp test there. Very helpfull test, for all you know you may have a lot of heavy metals in the water. Don't assume you don't as there's lots of surprised people over here including myself, copper, tin, lead all making their way in with no apparant answer why ( flake food and maricultured bases I reckon).
Jessesoto33
New member
What else are you dosing?
ReefDoberman
New member
Some will probably disagree with this but I would bet it is actually your temp. I know that people keep SPS and Acans at high temps (over 80) but I've seen the most consistent success around 77 degrees. This is easiest and cheapest adjustment that you can make. Drop the temp down for a few days and see if it makes a difference.
I run an sps/acan/zoa dominate 180 and I have almost all of the same parameters (Alk, Calc, Mag etc...) with GFO/Carbon and was running around 79.5 degrees. I was having all the same issues. Since dropping to 77, everything is doing amazing. I have no idea if there is any scientific correlation between temp and levels in an aquarium, I am just speaking from what feels like the exact same experience.
I run an sps/acan/zoa dominate 180 and I have almost all of the same parameters (Alk, Calc, Mag etc...) with GFO/Carbon and was running around 79.5 degrees. I was having all the same issues. Since dropping to 77, everything is doing amazing. I have no idea if there is any scientific correlation between temp and levels in an aquarium, I am just speaking from what feels like the exact same experience.
kenpau
New member
This is an interesting one, and I really hope you find the answer. I can't really add much to what people have said, except for a couple of points.
I also have a 150 gallon reef which is purely sps (mainly acros), I have 3 Hydra 52s which are on the 14k setting during the day. I also have 4 MP40s, you may need more flow in there, having said that I run my MP40s at 60% max.
I don't really agree with a couple of the points made, and I'm definitely not trying to argue with other peoples point of view....but......
I don't believe that you have to syphon your tank and use a turkey baster on rock to keep a successful sps reef, I have seen some amazing tanks and the owners do not do any kind of maintenance like that, what you need is flow and a good skimmer, this should take care of your detritus.
There was a couple of comments about only keeping corals that your tank 'allows' you to keep, why?? If you want acropora, then do everything you can to rectify your problem so you can have acropora, it's your tank and it's what you want. If you stuck with softies and lps then everytime you saw an awesome Acro tank and visited your LFS you'd be ****ed that you didn't have that. It may take a little time to sort this out but it will be worth it, don't give up!
Finally have you considered going full Zeovit? I saw you were dosing a couple of products already. I am 7 weeks into a full zeovit system and can not believe the results, my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate is 0, phosphate 0, I have just started dosing supplements so my calcium is 443, magnesium is low at 1100 and Alk is 7.86, these values have been fluctuating over the last couple of weeks as I find the correct dosing amount.
I am getting amazing growth from acropora frags, this is 7 weeks from first putting water in a new system, as I said, I don't vacuum sand, I don't use a turkey baster on rocks. I have high flow, high lighting, a great skimmer and use Zeovit. You're not far away from managing this in my opinion.
Paul
I also have a 150 gallon reef which is purely sps (mainly acros), I have 3 Hydra 52s which are on the 14k setting during the day. I also have 4 MP40s, you may need more flow in there, having said that I run my MP40s at 60% max.
I don't really agree with a couple of the points made, and I'm definitely not trying to argue with other peoples point of view....but......
I don't believe that you have to syphon your tank and use a turkey baster on rock to keep a successful sps reef, I have seen some amazing tanks and the owners do not do any kind of maintenance like that, what you need is flow and a good skimmer, this should take care of your detritus.
There was a couple of comments about only keeping corals that your tank 'allows' you to keep, why?? If you want acropora, then do everything you can to rectify your problem so you can have acropora, it's your tank and it's what you want. If you stuck with softies and lps then everytime you saw an awesome Acro tank and visited your LFS you'd be ****ed that you didn't have that. It may take a little time to sort this out but it will be worth it, don't give up!
Finally have you considered going full Zeovit? I saw you were dosing a couple of products already. I am 7 weeks into a full zeovit system and can not believe the results, my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate is 0, phosphate 0, I have just started dosing supplements so my calcium is 443, magnesium is low at 1100 and Alk is 7.86, these values have been fluctuating over the last couple of weeks as I find the correct dosing amount.
I am getting amazing growth from acropora frags, this is 7 weeks from first putting water in a new system, as I said, I don't vacuum sand, I don't use a turkey baster on rocks. I have high flow, high lighting, a great skimmer and use Zeovit. You're not far away from managing this in my opinion.
Paul
psykobowler
New member
My "secret" to sps:
High Magnesium - 1400+
Stable Alk
Periodic dosing of Kalkwasser (keeps ph high and adds calcium to the system)
Low and manageable phosphate
Ozone
Oysterfeast/Elos Amino Acid/fish poop
Temp - lower than 80degrees Fahrenheit is better. They are less stressed with lower temp and more focused on growing and spreading
Higher water volume on your system the better. It gets easier when water volume is higher than 200gallons, tank parameters has the tendency to change slower.
Lastly, buy corals from other reefers with tank raised sps. The ones from the store are either wild or mariculture - they are not as hardy as the ones grown in captivity with synthetic salt. Even the people with full blown sps reef has a hard time keeping mariculture or wild pieces alive or keep their color.
High Magnesium - 1400+
Stable Alk
Periodic dosing of Kalkwasser (keeps ph high and adds calcium to the system)
Low and manageable phosphate
Ozone
Oysterfeast/Elos Amino Acid/fish poop
Temp - lower than 80degrees Fahrenheit is better. They are less stressed with lower temp and more focused on growing and spreading
Higher water volume on your system the better. It gets easier when water volume is higher than 200gallons, tank parameters has the tendency to change slower.
Lastly, buy corals from other reefers with tank raised sps. The ones from the store are either wild or mariculture - they are not as hardy as the ones grown in captivity with synthetic salt. Even the people with full blown sps reef has a hard time keeping mariculture or wild pieces alive or keep their color.
kenpau
New member
Very, very good point! Frags all the way...
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
Hey Kurfer, I didn't see anyone bring this up but there's a good chance it may be the cause. People have found using those marinepure ceramic blocks lead to elevated levels of aluminum, here is a thread on it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931
I would send some water out for triton testing and see.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931
I would send some water out for triton testing and see.
Spyderturbo007
New member
I am in the exact same boat. I've explored every option imaginable over the last 2 years with no success. The only think I can assume is that there is something I can't test for that's killing my coral. I have no coraline algae growth and things grow very, very slowly when they aren't dying. I would put money on it being that my live rock was used. I bought it from the LFS and found reef putty on it when I brought it home. I didn't know what it was for months and just thought it was part of the rock.
I thought I had it licked a few weeks ago when I turned down the Red / Amber channels on my LED, began feeding heavily and adding some KZ coral products. Things started to color up and for the first time in a year, my Montipora started growing and I saw some polyp extension.
I was so excited. My wife and I must have looked at the coral for an hour. All my other SPS had died when I initially switched to LEDs and used the power settings provided by the manufacturer. I cut them all off the rock and threw away the dead skeletons. Within the last few weeks the small spots of them began exhibiting life again.
I woke up the next morning and the Montipora had no PE, the flesh had fallen off and it was covered with algae. The other small spots of SPS were dying as well.
If I didn't love my fish so much, I would put the entire thing out for the trash.
I thought I had it licked a few weeks ago when I turned down the Red / Amber channels on my LED, began feeding heavily and adding some KZ coral products. Things started to color up and for the first time in a year, my Montipora started growing and I saw some polyp extension.
I was so excited. My wife and I must have looked at the coral for an hour. All my other SPS had died when I initially switched to LEDs and used the power settings provided by the manufacturer. I cut them all off the rock and threw away the dead skeletons. Within the last few weeks the small spots of them began exhibiting life again.
I woke up the next morning and the Montipora had no PE, the flesh had fallen off and it was covered with algae. The other small spots of SPS were dying as well.
If I didn't love my fish so much, I would put the entire thing out for the trash.
Reefin' Dude
New member
kurfer-what corals are your must have corals?
i suspect that your available inorganic nutrient are to high to support SPS, but right in the wheelhouse for the LPS and the softies. they system is just to eutrophic to support the SPS. this is also indicated by problems keeping any hermatypic organism.
if you would like to lower the trophic state of the system to be more to the liking of the SPS, then start by siphoning out detritus. i would start by what could be hiding behind the LR structure if possible. removing detritus removes the source of the inorganic nutrients. if you have any hobby refugium, i would remove everything from it and start using it as a settling chamber for detritus. start removing the detritus that will accumulate there every water change.
the reason why keeping SPS is expensive is that we keep trying to fight nature. if we just work with it, than keeping SPS is actually very easy and not any more expensive than any other SW organisms.
G~
i suspect that your available inorganic nutrient are to high to support SPS, but right in the wheelhouse for the LPS and the softies. they system is just to eutrophic to support the SPS. this is also indicated by problems keeping any hermatypic organism.
if you would like to lower the trophic state of the system to be more to the liking of the SPS, then start by siphoning out detritus. i would start by what could be hiding behind the LR structure if possible. removing detritus removes the source of the inorganic nutrients. if you have any hobby refugium, i would remove everything from it and start using it as a settling chamber for detritus. start removing the detritus that will accumulate there every water change.
the reason why keeping SPS is expensive is that we keep trying to fight nature. if we just work with it, than keeping SPS is actually very easy and not any more expensive than any other SW organisms.
G~
rmchoi
New member
kurfer— I too experienced the same issues with keeping SPS. In my previous system, similar corals thrived like LPS, but SPS did not do so well or had STN. I share similar regimented water quality monitoring and maintenance.
The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.
The last observation is keeping softies with SPS may cause some toxin issues. Leathers are toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenoids (poisons used to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some SPS and LPS. Sure there will always be exceptions of mixed reefs, but generally speaking, I think this might be worth considering.
The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.
The last observation is keeping softies with SPS may cause some toxin issues. Leathers are toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenoids (poisons used to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some SPS and LPS. Sure there will always be exceptions of mixed reefs, but generally speaking, I think this might be worth considering.
Stackemdeep
New member
All the RS coral pro that I have ever used has mixed to 460,12.5DKH and 1400 mg so something is not correct. To validate, use a kitchen gram scale and weigh 125 grams of RSCP salt for each gallon of RODI, mix for 4 hours and then test the big 3 again. Forget the refractometer for this test and actually measure the grams. If you are getting the numbers you posted, then you have a very unique batch of RSCP salt and it needs to be replaced. When I switched to the blue bucket, It still produced 440,9.0 & 1320@ 1.026
From the Bucket and web site:
Aquarium Type Salinity Alkalinity (dKH/meq/l) Ca (mg/l) Mg (mg/l) K (mg/l) Dose
Fish 30.6 ppt 11.3 – 11.7 /4 – 4.1 400 – 420 1185 – 1245 340 – 360 33.4 g/l
Non-Coral 33.0 ppt 11.8 –12.2 / 4.2 – 4.3 430 – 450 1280 – 1340 370 – 390 36.0 g/l
Corals 35.0 ppt 12.3 – 12.7 / 4.4 – 4.5 455 – 475 1360 – 1420 390 – 410 38.2 g/l
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power boat jim
Well-known member
Wazzel
New member
AI Hydra52's are more than capable of growing SPS and doing it well. Might have to fine tune the settings and operations, but no reason to dump them. The problems do not sound like lighting.
