Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.

Thanks for the reply.

I keep my tank at 35ppt, using 3 refratometer's calibrated via solution and LFS (3 different stores). I really only use the Apex as a tool to measure my change in salinity and rather ignore the actual number (reads 36.8) calibration on that tool is spotty at best. I just like a reference number to see how much it changes after WC and to alert in case of ATO failure.

3 alk test kits...dont keep them long I test pretty much daily so I go through them alot.

SPS stay on top of rocks, acans on sandbed. The one in the shade is actually the worst off.

Lights are:

2 hydra 52 12 inches above water and here are my light settings:

L7vffjH.jpg

Just so you know, those settings get you about 48% of the power of the fixture. So instead of having something about equal to a 250 watt MH you have more like a 100-125 equivalent. You need more light for sure. Think you have something else going on that is the cause.
 
Full spectrum leds are perfectly capable of supporting any type coral over a long period of time. Sure some of the growth and color may differ from other light sources but leds do not cause mass rtn outbreaks over night and kill nearly every species of coral it touches.

^Agreed. The only issue I had with sps when I switched to LED was having them hung too low, irritating the coral with spotlighting and not realizing how strong they really were so I actually starved them by keeping the water too clean. I use a relatively inexpensive Reefbreeder and have no problems with SPS. I have no fancy equipment, use Kalk in the ATO and the sps are growing well. I don't even monitor PH. I will say that both growth and color improved when I removed the GFO & GAC reactors. Moving my lighting up from 12" to 17" off the water improved blending and took care of the spotlighting issues.
 
Running Zeo seems like another big headache and i'm not sure i'm advanced enough to deal with it.

I am going to keep my Alk steady at 8.5 and keep siphoning out as much detritus as I possible can. Again, my biggest issue is that I don't see anything on the rock to blow off. When I use a turkey baster I see nothing coming off the rocks.
 
i would drop alk to around 7. get the alk, Ca, and Mg to NSW levels. if you are having a hard time keeping alk up, then another indicator that eutrophication is in effect. the bacteria are using up your alk to process the detritus in the substrate.

the LR is not the problem, it is the substrate. LR is self cleaning. if you have enough flow in the system, then there should be little detrital blow off from the LR. all of that detritus from the LR is settling into the substrate.

G~
 
+1 on the light being too low . Also and that's just purely my hypothesis. There could be a bacteria in your water that is not so good for the corals it will consume the coral if it is damaged causing quick recession on some and shorter on others. It happens to the corals that get damaged in my tank when I dose carbon. As soon as I stop carbon dosing all the recession slows down. Since I have 2 tanks I move all the damaged corals from dt to my frag tank and the corals usually recover . So in conclusion be that part of your problem could be carbon dosing. Also there could be several causes . So have someone else test if you have stray voltage, check your params metals in the water and just look at your tank , without your bias input.
 
150G
2 AI Hydra 52
lifereef skimmer (large model)

what pump are you using on your skimmer? how much flow are you moving through your sump? i like to match the flow through the sump to the processing rate of the skimmer. the less water that goes shooting by the skimmer the better, IMO. it can be hard to find flow rates through skimmers. manufacturers like to post pump rates of unmodified pumps. i find that the actual flow rates are closer 33% of that rate.

from your description it sounds like the skimmer is your primary nutrient export mechanism. while it is a good one, it is not able to get to the larger waste material.

Nitrates stay around 5
Phosphates .03 and jump to .09 if I turn GFO off

i expect that the levels would go even higher if you were to stop carbon dosing. these tested levels of inorganic nutrients is higher than what is consider a low nutrient system. more towards what one would expect for a lagoon system, not an SPS system. all of the equipment is trying its best, but it can not keep up with the decomposition of the waste organic material that has accumulated in the system.

Korallen Amino acid per instructions daily (6 drops)
Korallen Pohl's Coral Vitalizer (6 drops daily)

reef roids/oyster feast 1-2 times per week

Daily feeding of Neptune crossover via AFS

unless you are removing as much "food" material as you put in (minus growth for the must have organisms), the system is gaining in mass. the system is becoming more and more nutrient rich with every feeding.

15% weekly water changes with red sea coral pro. Also use a BRS 5 stage RODI.

when you do water changes are you removing waste organic material or just changing the water itself. water is not the source of the nutrients it is just a carrier. it will not take long for the source of the nutrients to fill all of that new water back up with nutrients. when doing water change remove the waste organic material. if not, then you are not keeping up with the inputs.

Carbon/GFO reactor
Ecobak pellets in TLF reactor

1 cup HC GFO monthly
1.4 cup Carbon monthly

the equipment is just masking the affects of eutrophication from the build up of waste organic material. either in the substrate or in areas that are not accessible by flow. take away the waste organic material before it has a chance to decompose, lessneed for the equipment.

G~
 
Running Zeo seems like another big headache and i'm not sure i'm advanced enough to deal with it.

I am going to keep my Alk steady at 8.5 and keep siphoning out as much detritus as I possible can. Again, my biggest issue is that I don't see anything on the rock to blow off. When I use a turkey baster I see nothing coming off the rocks.

I've read through this entire thread. Much of what you're doing is the right initial things - stop dosing mystery products, remove the bio pellets, and get control of your minor element concentrations (alk, Ca & Mg).

One of my thoughts is precisely the opposite of what the comments have been about your lights. I don't have the Hydra 52s, but did have 2 Vegas 14" off of the water on a tank 22" deep. Setting the Vegas for about 65% blue/royal blue/deep blue and about 55% white intensity was absolutely nuking the SPS that was about 1/2 up the water column. And the Vegas are a bit weaker fixture than you're using. It was enough to actually sun-burn a new clam acquisition that was placed on the sand (fortunately, I realized what was happening and the clam survived).

That said, I was running a bit longer light program than yours - my total photoperiod was about 15 hours, with the actual effective lighting part about 12 hours a day, and the intense period of light at about 5 hours.

Without a PAR meter, it's really difficult to judge the intensity of LEDs. What I can tell you without doubt is that most SPS will survive absolutely fine at much, much lower intensities than one would expect. They don't grow all that much - higher intensities are required for that - but they don't die, either. If you want to experiment, you can move a couple of frags away from the "light islands" in your tank and see how they do.

Back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your RTN problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the SPS forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this.

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 TDS water as long as you're running a proper RODI system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), DI resin and RO membrane?
 
5/.03 ppm nitrate/phosphate? That seems ok to me. What kind of test kits are being used?

i find the tested values of NSW levels something to shoot for.

0.005ppm is what i would shoot for when keeping SPS.

0.03ppm is where i would want to keep a system for softies and LPS.

one can also use various organisms as indicators of nutrient levels. the more coralline the lower the available inorganic levels, the more algae, even in live sumps is a good indicator that inorganic nutrient levels are increasing.

G~
 
...back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your rtn problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the sps forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this...

...the one thing i haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 tds water as long as you're running a proper rodi system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), di resin and ro membrane?

+1
 
I've read through this entire thread. Much of what you're doing is the right initial things - stop dosing mystery products, remove the bio pellets, and get control of your minor element concentrations (alk, Ca & Mg).

One of my thoughts is precisely the opposite of what the comments have been about your lights. I don't have the Hydra 52s, but did have 2 Vegas 14" off of the water on a tank 22" deep. Setting the Vegas for about 65% blue/royal blue/deep blue and about 55% white intensity was absolutely nuking the SPS that was about 1/2 up the water column. And the Vegas are a bit weaker fixture than you're using. It was enough to actually sun-burn a new clam acquisition that was placed on the sand (fortunately, I realized what was happening and the clam survived).

That said, I was running a bit longer light program than yours - my total photoperiod was about 15 hours, with the actual effective lighting part about 12 hours a day, and the intense period of light at about 5 hours.

Without a PAR meter, it's really difficult to judge the intensity of LEDs. What I can tell you without doubt is that most SPS will survive absolutely fine at much, much lower intensities than one would expect. They don't grow all that much - higher intensities are required for that - but they don't die, either. If you want to experiment, you can move a couple of frags away from the "light islands" in your tank and see how they do.

Back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your RTN problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the SPS forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this.

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 TDS water as long as you're running a proper RODI system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), DI resin and RO membrane?

Changed my complete RODI filter/resins (brs package) out in late October. I make 50 gallons of RODI per week...

Output shows 0 TDS using the complete BRS 5 stage 75gpd system.

Nitrates/phos undetectable in fresh water. The DI resin is slighty brown at very bottom and dark blue 90%.
 
Changed my complete RODI filter/resins (brs package) out in late October. I make 50 gallons of RODI per week...

Output shows 0 TDS using the complete BRS 5 stage 75gpd system.

Nitrates/phos undetectable in fresh water. The DI resin is slighty brown at very bottom and dark blue 90%.

You're probably OK on the water, though it's time to change out your carbon. Given that's the case, and assuming you've stopped dosing anything other than Ca & Alk (and you're not making rapid adjustments to the amount delivered per day), and you've removed the bio-pellets from your system, I'd suggest waiting a week and seeing how things look. If there are no more casualties of SPS frags that weren't already compromised, I'd be pointing the finger at the bio-pellets, personally.

One other thought - you don't say how you're obtaining your SPS frags and what conditions that source is keeping them in, and how long they take to expire in your system.
 
It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

Somewhat off topic (sorry OP), but I'm always interested to find continuously long running nano tanks without any major changes (such as major gravel or live rock replacement). Do you have a build thread or even a pic or two?
 
No build thread (I wasn't a member of a reef 'net forum when I set it up in 2004), though there's a couple of pics in the ROTM Dec 2013 thread. The tank's changed quite a bit in appearance in that the acropora, montipora and turbinaria corals have grown a great deal.

As you might guess, the tank hasn't been completely static for (now 11) years, though the rock, sand and basic arrangement has stayed the same. A fair number of corals have simply out-grown the tank and had to be moved elsewhere.
 
Yes, I can see the good sized corals in the pics in the ROTM Dec 2013 thread.

If you aren't disturbing the sand bed much at all, then do you use a skimmer, GAC, GFO, etc.? My 12g is coming up on 7 years now, but since I don't use any mechanical filtration or chemical media I have found that regular water changes and vacuuming are essential in controling NO3 and PO4 with my 1" deep shallow aragonite sand bed.
 
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