dragon_slayer
In Memoriam
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9477799#post9477799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ninjafish
Hello again kc,
By rubble I just meant pieces of LR that have been broken up to fit inside the canister.
by rubble i mean anything smaller then softball size pieces of LR
As far as surface area, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether the rock is as big as a persons head or as big as a golf ball - LR is porous enough that the bacteria is living all through the rock... not just the edges.
CORRECT, but the part you fail to see is the first 2-3 inches of the rock have nitrifying bacteria that are consuming all the available O2 and the De-nitrifying bacteria colonize the surfaces deeper in the rock. oops, rubble doesn't have these deeper surfaces so no de-nitrification takes place.
This porosity is what contributes to the massive surface area of LR - not just the outside edges. I'm sorry but your last post is the first time you have suggested that there is a difference, filtration wise, between a single piece of LR and multiple, smaller pieces of LR.
no it's not, I've stated in just about every post that rubble doesn't have sufficient mass to form anaerobic regions and it therefore only has the ability to quickly reduce waste to NO3 and then become a nitrate factory when placed in high current environments like your lovely canister filter.
I have never heard this assertion before and I hope it isn't because I don't have half an intellect. I thought your were saying that LR adds NO3 - I wasn't trying to twist your words. Now you clarified it to state that LR rubble adds NO3. So should people stop using it in their HOB filters too?
their HOB filters are low flow and aren't as readily producing NO3 but none the less they are, again water changes are used by 99% of nano tank owners to controll that.
I don't want to sound like a wise@$$ - I honestly can't see how the bacteria "knows" what sized piece of LR it is on. I can't picture how LR rubble bacteria would process the water differently from bacteria living on 'solid' pieces of LR (which are themselves just larger pieces of broken rocks).
as mentioned a few lines up, the bacteria in the outer portions of the live rock are using up all available O2 from the water in their job of nitrification, they can no longer live in the depths of the rock because nitrification bacteria require O2 to live, de-nitrification bacteria on the other hand can not live in the presence of O2 and will ONLY form in the depths of the rock that are void of O2, and small rubble or very pours rocks never become void of O2, in areas of high flow the levels of O2 go deeper into the rocks as well, your canister filter keeps a constant flow of fresh O2 filled water circulating around the rubble and it will always be abundant in O2 even in the center most portions of the rubble inside it.
I understand where you are coming from and I can see how it can be confusing.
The bacteria in the LR is what converts waste to nitrates - but that isn't the same thing as saying that LR causes nitrates.
sure it does, LR holds most of the bacteria that are breaking down waste, take all those bacteria away and you'll not have a nitrogen cycle (hard to keep a sterile environment without killing everything else though)
It is confusing but it might help if I give an example - sorry if it is silly but it is the best I can do on short notice.
Garbage trucks are required to convert curbside garbage into landfill waste.
Saying that increasing the amount of LR in a system will increase the amount of NO3 is like saying that increasing the number of garbage trucks will increase the amount of waste in the landfill.
the more trucks you've got delivering trash that is readily available will defiantly put more trash into the landfill. you're trucking it in and nothing is taking it out, it gets more in, thats simple math. the LR is the landfill, not the garbage truck.....
The garbage trucks and the LR are the capacity to process the waste -
no the garbage truck is the fish in your tank, the food you toss in that doesn't get ate and any other means of introducing waste into the system, the LR is the landfill, it's processing the waste. if the landfill is all small little spots throughout the country then there are no biological breakdowns in the waste and it'll forever be just a pile of garbage (like the rubble) but if it's a large landfill the waste is absorbed and goes through a complete nitrogen cycle and becomes compost and released as nitrogen gas (just like the bubbles from deep in the LR and from DSBs
the actual waste comes from the fish and food in the system.
yeap, the garbage trucks of the system as mentioned a line or two up.
Adding LR will not increase NO3, only the system's capacity to process fish poop and detritus - which is converted to NO3 (that's what's got you hung up). The LR can't make NO3 from nothing - it is dependant on the amount of raw waste. If that waste is a fixed amount, you can't keep adding LR to keep increasing your NO3 output - you can't create something from nothing.
you're not making something from nothing, the nitrogen cycle has stages, waste is broken down into ammonia, that ammonia is broken down into nitrites and those nitrites are broken down into nitrates and in situations where you have anaerobic conditions those nitrates are broken down into nitrogen gas and they bubble up and out of the water via gas exchange at the surface. unfortunately that last step is missing in your canister filter and in systems that have only small rock and high flow.
Not only does LR not add to nitrates, it actually reduces nitrates. It isn't as efficient at it as a pure anaerobic environment like you suggested, but it still does reduce nitrates. That is why we have LR in our tanks.
yeap we have large pieces of LR that have anaerobic areas and if we don't then NEVER will it ever convert NO3 to nitrogen gas.
Don't believe me? Just read up on LR. Or type "live rock reduce nitrates?" (without the quotes) in google and read what comes up.
i know exactly what works and how it works, I've only been doing this close to 30 yrs and unlike you after only 4 i didn't think i knew it all and considered myself a myth buster to things that have been proven in depth many times over.
To repeat myself for the last time (I hope).
Canister filters have gotten a bad rap as being nitrate factories.
it's not a bad rap, it's the truth the only way you can avoid it is by removing any bio-logical media from inside one, LR rubble included
enough time wasted on this thread, continue with your myth busting.
kc
Hello again kc,
By rubble I just meant pieces of LR that have been broken up to fit inside the canister.
by rubble i mean anything smaller then softball size pieces of LR
As far as surface area, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether the rock is as big as a persons head or as big as a golf ball - LR is porous enough that the bacteria is living all through the rock... not just the edges.
CORRECT, but the part you fail to see is the first 2-3 inches of the rock have nitrifying bacteria that are consuming all the available O2 and the De-nitrifying bacteria colonize the surfaces deeper in the rock. oops, rubble doesn't have these deeper surfaces so no de-nitrification takes place.
This porosity is what contributes to the massive surface area of LR - not just the outside edges. I'm sorry but your last post is the first time you have suggested that there is a difference, filtration wise, between a single piece of LR and multiple, smaller pieces of LR.
no it's not, I've stated in just about every post that rubble doesn't have sufficient mass to form anaerobic regions and it therefore only has the ability to quickly reduce waste to NO3 and then become a nitrate factory when placed in high current environments like your lovely canister filter.
I have never heard this assertion before and I hope it isn't because I don't have half an intellect. I thought your were saying that LR adds NO3 - I wasn't trying to twist your words. Now you clarified it to state that LR rubble adds NO3. So should people stop using it in their HOB filters too?
their HOB filters are low flow and aren't as readily producing NO3 but none the less they are, again water changes are used by 99% of nano tank owners to controll that.
I don't want to sound like a wise@$$ - I honestly can't see how the bacteria "knows" what sized piece of LR it is on. I can't picture how LR rubble bacteria would process the water differently from bacteria living on 'solid' pieces of LR (which are themselves just larger pieces of broken rocks).
as mentioned a few lines up, the bacteria in the outer portions of the live rock are using up all available O2 from the water in their job of nitrification, they can no longer live in the depths of the rock because nitrification bacteria require O2 to live, de-nitrification bacteria on the other hand can not live in the presence of O2 and will ONLY form in the depths of the rock that are void of O2, and small rubble or very pours rocks never become void of O2, in areas of high flow the levels of O2 go deeper into the rocks as well, your canister filter keeps a constant flow of fresh O2 filled water circulating around the rubble and it will always be abundant in O2 even in the center most portions of the rubble inside it.
I understand where you are coming from and I can see how it can be confusing.
The bacteria in the LR is what converts waste to nitrates - but that isn't the same thing as saying that LR causes nitrates.
sure it does, LR holds most of the bacteria that are breaking down waste, take all those bacteria away and you'll not have a nitrogen cycle (hard to keep a sterile environment without killing everything else though)
It is confusing but it might help if I give an example - sorry if it is silly but it is the best I can do on short notice.
Garbage trucks are required to convert curbside garbage into landfill waste.
Saying that increasing the amount of LR in a system will increase the amount of NO3 is like saying that increasing the number of garbage trucks will increase the amount of waste in the landfill.
the more trucks you've got delivering trash that is readily available will defiantly put more trash into the landfill. you're trucking it in and nothing is taking it out, it gets more in, thats simple math. the LR is the landfill, not the garbage truck.....
The garbage trucks and the LR are the capacity to process the waste -
no the garbage truck is the fish in your tank, the food you toss in that doesn't get ate and any other means of introducing waste into the system, the LR is the landfill, it's processing the waste. if the landfill is all small little spots throughout the country then there are no biological breakdowns in the waste and it'll forever be just a pile of garbage (like the rubble) but if it's a large landfill the waste is absorbed and goes through a complete nitrogen cycle and becomes compost and released as nitrogen gas (just like the bubbles from deep in the LR and from DSBs
the actual waste comes from the fish and food in the system.
yeap, the garbage trucks of the system as mentioned a line or two up.
Adding LR will not increase NO3, only the system's capacity to process fish poop and detritus - which is converted to NO3 (that's what's got you hung up). The LR can't make NO3 from nothing - it is dependant on the amount of raw waste. If that waste is a fixed amount, you can't keep adding LR to keep increasing your NO3 output - you can't create something from nothing.
you're not making something from nothing, the nitrogen cycle has stages, waste is broken down into ammonia, that ammonia is broken down into nitrites and those nitrites are broken down into nitrates and in situations where you have anaerobic conditions those nitrates are broken down into nitrogen gas and they bubble up and out of the water via gas exchange at the surface. unfortunately that last step is missing in your canister filter and in systems that have only small rock and high flow.
Not only does LR not add to nitrates, it actually reduces nitrates. It isn't as efficient at it as a pure anaerobic environment like you suggested, but it still does reduce nitrates. That is why we have LR in our tanks.
yeap we have large pieces of LR that have anaerobic areas and if we don't then NEVER will it ever convert NO3 to nitrogen gas.
Don't believe me? Just read up on LR. Or type "live rock reduce nitrates?" (without the quotes) in google and read what comes up.
i know exactly what works and how it works, I've only been doing this close to 30 yrs and unlike you after only 4 i didn't think i knew it all and considered myself a myth buster to things that have been proven in depth many times over.
To repeat myself for the last time (I hope).
Canister filters have gotten a bad rap as being nitrate factories.
it's not a bad rap, it's the truth the only way you can avoid it is by removing any bio-logical media from inside one, LR rubble included
enough time wasted on this thread, continue with your myth busting.
kc
the only thing going into the coil is tank water and it's only going down a little 75' length of tubing before it's put right back into the tank, a lot like a long siphoning hose.......
