insomniac2k2
Active member
I agree with Jsimpson completely. After I determined my relative maintenance dose, I tested every couple days. I have now gotten to every few weeks.
LaCl Reactor
- Thread starter insomniac2k2
- Start date
I agree with Jsimpson completely. After I determined my relative maintenance dose, I tested every couple days. I have now gotten to every few weeks.
Thanks you two :0) I think you both are right on about the .07-.10 I just tested 1/2 hour ago and the PO was .10654 So for about 10 days, the levels have been in that range pretty much. So do you think that the 15 secs every 8:45 is my maintenance?
I think I will go to 15 secs every 7:45 and watch it closely still as that rate had dropped the level pretty quickly. I'll keep updating and again, Thanks for your help!!!
I think I will go to 15 secs every 7:45 and watch it closely still as that rate had dropped the level pretty quickly. I'll keep updating and again, Thanks for your help!!!
I did change the rate this morning and tested about 13 hours later. The result was .0608 so again at the rate of 15 secs every 7 3/4 minutes, it drops the PO about .04 I'm going to now change it back to the 8 3/4 minutes.... When I test again, I'll see if it appears to be my maintenance dose :0) Have a great week Insomniac and J !!!
For some reason, I just can't find that sweet spot!:hammer: I did a WC yesterday and just tested. On 8/4, the level was .06088 dosing every 15 secs every 7:45 minutes. I was okay with that so changed to 15 every 8:45. Even with yesterday's WC, the result just now is .14 :blown: So I've just changed it to 15 every 7:45...again! That should drop it about .04 in about 12-13 hours. Does anyone have an idea on where (the timimg) I should go when it gets to about .06?
insomniac2k2
Active member
Personally, I think you may be doing too many water changes. Not that they are a bad thing, but just about every time you posted a large fluxuation, it was immediately after a wc.
Do you have a demand for such frequent water changes? It seems that you are carbon dosing and using phosphate reduction mechanisms. Do your nitrates run high or something.
Just trying to get some insight.
Do you have a demand for such frequent water changes? It seems that you are carbon dosing and using phosphate reduction mechanisms. Do your nitrates run high or something.
Just trying to get some insight.
slief
RC Sponsor
I have not read this whole thread but I did read some of it. I've got to say that I would not be comfortable dosing Lanthanum on a regular let alone continual basis. I've used it before in moderation to lower phosphates by dosing via an IV bag directly into a 10 micron felt filter sock where the water enters my sump. The results of a very small amount of Lanthanum were almost scary in the amount of percipitate that it creates and how fast (minutes) that the filter socks would harden and clog up. The results were nothing short of shocking in that it really reduced my PO4 in a hurry. I was very cautious in my application and achieved the results I was after very quickly with very low doses and without repeat applications. Well actually, I did repeat the application one time a week or 2 later. Between the crushed coral/sand removal, LaCl application, rinsing my mysis and the addition of high quality GFO my PO4 dropped to 0 from .10 before I took action. This was after 7 years straight of complete disregard for PO4 levels.
In my mind, if you guys are using a reactor to continually dose small amounts, then you are doing the equivilent of putting lipstick on a pig. If you want to get phosphates under control, it's best to attack it at the source. As part of my Phosphate control, I eliminated all of my old crushed coral and sand, I began rinsing my mysis shrimp with RODI water which was a follow up to my very controlled application of LaCl which I repeated one time after the first application. LaCl is serious stuff. It's also critically important to remove the percipitate from the water immediately otherwise, the PO4 will just increase again as it was not really removed from the system.
I'm not faulting you guys on your endeavor and you may well be onto something but to me, it sounds as if you guys are playing with fire and delving into something that can be very risky for your tanks. I hope I am wrong and will certainly follow this thread as the reactor idea is intriguing but the IV bag/filter sock method is reasonably safe when done properly and with moderation. When I decided to try LaCl a couple years back, I did a lot of research (hours upon hours of reading) and I went with the safest proven method of application. A reactor was never even a consideration let alone an option from the circles that I conferred with and read up on. As I said, maybe you are onto something but to me it sounds very risky and I'm of the midset that the use of LaCl should be done with surgical precision. I measured my doses with a syringe and applied it to the water mixed in RODI at a rate of a couple drops a second.
Obviously, it looks as though the OP has done his homework. I can only suggest in the strongest terms that anybody considering the use of LaCl to do your homework. There is a very good thread here on RC on the subject that the OP referred to in his first post that was started by Gary Majchrzak and while it may be a long read, the use of LaCl warrants the time being taken to understand the application, the pitfalls and the safe use of the stuff. If you didn't see the OP's first post, here is the link to that thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&highlight=lanthanum
Here is a link to my application of LaCl. It was safe (by my standards), scientific in its application and the results were stellar.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16841760&highlight=lanthanum#post16841760
In my mind, if you guys are using a reactor to continually dose small amounts, then you are doing the equivilent of putting lipstick on a pig. If you want to get phosphates under control, it's best to attack it at the source. As part of my Phosphate control, I eliminated all of my old crushed coral and sand, I began rinsing my mysis shrimp with RODI water which was a follow up to my very controlled application of LaCl which I repeated one time after the first application. LaCl is serious stuff. It's also critically important to remove the percipitate from the water immediately otherwise, the PO4 will just increase again as it was not really removed from the system.
I'm not faulting you guys on your endeavor and you may well be onto something but to me, it sounds as if you guys are playing with fire and delving into something that can be very risky for your tanks. I hope I am wrong and will certainly follow this thread as the reactor idea is intriguing but the IV bag/filter sock method is reasonably safe when done properly and with moderation. When I decided to try LaCl a couple years back, I did a lot of research (hours upon hours of reading) and I went with the safest proven method of application. A reactor was never even a consideration let alone an option from the circles that I conferred with and read up on. As I said, maybe you are onto something but to me it sounds very risky and I'm of the midset that the use of LaCl should be done with surgical precision. I measured my doses with a syringe and applied it to the water mixed in RODI at a rate of a couple drops a second.
Obviously, it looks as though the OP has done his homework. I can only suggest in the strongest terms that anybody considering the use of LaCl to do your homework. There is a very good thread here on RC on the subject that the OP referred to in his first post that was started by Gary Majchrzak and while it may be a long read, the use of LaCl warrants the time being taken to understand the application, the pitfalls and the safe use of the stuff. If you didn't see the OP's first post, here is the link to that thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&highlight=lanthanum
Here is a link to my application of LaCl. It was safe (by my standards), scientific in its application and the results were stellar.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16841760&highlight=lanthanum#post16841760
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insomniac2k2
Active member
While your post is well thought and written, I simply do not feel the same as you do on this topic. I feel that LC in a very controlled reactor is a great option. Granted, research is key.
I realize you have good intent here, but I do find your post a bit offensive. Lipstick on a pig was probably GFO, ATS, or LED not long ago. Many people probably still consider at least 1 of 3 of these just that.
I personally dislike gfo. I find that my tank seems much healthier without it.
I realize you have good intent here, but I do find your post a bit offensive. Lipstick on a pig was probably GFO, ATS, or LED not long ago. Many people probably still consider at least 1 of 3 of these just that.
I personally dislike gfo. I find that my tank seems much healthier without it.
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slief
RC Sponsor
My lipstick on a pig comment was simply to imply that using LaCl or even GFO for that matter without addressing the source of the phosphate is not truly addressing the problem but rather taking a bandaid approach.
I've been in this hobby for more than 25 years now. I've also had very close relations with curators at major public aquarium installations as I was also involved in the wholesale exotic fish business and supplied specimens to well known aquaria establishments. While I have limited experience with LaCl, I did my research and also discussed the use of it with some of the industry people that I know from my past and as such, I err on the side of caution.
Like I said, I realize you did your research but I contend that continual use of LaCl can be very dangerous, especially if you overdose and I am not suggesting that you are. I am however suggesting that it is not a solution to a phosphate problem but rather a means of eliminating it for a short term if you are not addressing the source of the phosphate. Thus my lipstick comment above. If you are addressing the source of the phosphate then ultimately there would be no need to continually use LaCl. I guess the same can be said for GFO too but unlike GFO, LaCl is potentially a lethal chemical with grave consequence if not used correctly.
My reason for even posting my previous comments is because this thread will certainly entice people with much less experience into going down a similar path and if they are not fully aware of the risks involved and proper application of LaCl in relation to water volume and precipitate removal, there are substantial risks to their tank and livestock. This is no different that the use of Ozone, vodka dosing etc. There are risks involved with any of them and the use of any of the above requires proper research.
So having said that, I am sorry if you found my post offensive. That was never my point. I guess I am just playing devils advocate and really wanting people (other than you) to do their due dillegence before going out and building an LaCl reactor and employing a chemical that they know little to nothing about and is known to be harmful to certain fish, especially if not used in very careful moderation.
slief
RC Sponsor
Here are a couple outside links to use of Lanthanum Chloride as it applies to our aquariums. These may be an interesting read for those considering the use of LaCl. This is NOT meant to be a discouragement. This is meant to provide additional information to those considering using it.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate
I was thinking about what you are suggesting:lol2: Now that I understand how the doser works, I don't think that changing it will cause me any problems:thumbsup:
Am I understanding you correctly to dose for 1 second every 34 seconds?
I would not advise that. My Drew's Doser puts out a drop every two or three seconds, meaning 1 second dose time would usually not even drop once if only on for one second. I would assume he was speaking more the ratio of on time/off time as opposed to dosing for only a second at a time.
On a side note, I still believe that a lot of the variations you are seeing are a result of testing errors. Even using the Hanna ULR Phosphorous test, you are in the bottom 10% or so of the meter's range. My advice would be to take things slowly, and try to observe results over a period of weeks, not days, to get a better idea of your actual progress (or lack of). I would stay with the dosing schedule you are at now, which doesn't seem likely to precipitously drop phosphate levels, and see how things look in two or three weeks before deciding to change dosing rates.
Joe
I don't know Insomniac.
I've just always done weekly WC's for years. I did quit running the GFO reactor when you suggested it:thumbsup: I dose 25ml vinegar daily but not on WC day. I had a nitrate issue for about a year until I started carbon dosing. The nitrates run about 20ppm (API) I do have a heavy bioload and, feed my fish(once daily) and corals(once weekly) very well. I'm afraid if I don't do weekly WC's, that the nitrates will skyrocket. I "usually" feed the corals the night before the WC.....
Yes I was talking about the ratio...
Once you know the exact ratio and the amount it removes you can adjust your parameters to compensate for too much or too little.
If a ratio of 1 to 30 drops it to quick and a 1 to 40 makes it rise then a 1 to 35 (or 33 in my calculations) would make it perfect.
A 15 second run (first number) would mean that the second number needs to mult by 15. This would produce 8m45s. That is with the previous assumption of 1 to 35.
A 1 to 33 would produce 8m15s.
Once you know the exact ratio and the amount it removes you can adjust your parameters to compensate for too much or too little.
If a ratio of 1 to 30 drops it to quick and a 1 to 40 makes it rise then a 1 to 35 (or 33 in my calculations) would make it perfect.
A 15 second run (first number) would mean that the second number needs to mult by 15. This would produce 8m45s. That is with the previous assumption of 1 to 35.
A 1 to 33 would produce 8m15s.
I'll be very blunt here Slief. If reefers do not do their research before doing anything to their tanks, they are not "good" reefkeepers. I am fully aware of Gary's thread... I know why I have phosphate problems... I know the risks of LaCl, ozone, carbon dosing, GAC and GFO, et cetera... I even know the risk of my cancer returning! My tank only comes second to my family. So with all that said, I find it offensive that you are playing devil's advocate without fully reading this thread and knowing, excuse me, not knowing whether the participants here are educated enough in determining what they will or will not do with their tanks....Just sayin'
:blown: I'm sitting here Worm, LMFAO! tee hee I followed everything until "A 15 second run (first number) would mean that the second number needs to mult by 15. This would produce 8m45s. That is with the previous assumption of 1 to 35." So, you want me to dose the rate at 15 secs every 8 minutes, correct? I'll be right back, lol...time for a Margarita on the rocks!:beer:
I guess what I was saying is based on a ratio and did not want to get it confused with minutes and seconds.
Normal ratio is 1:4 in connotation.
SO....
Running at at 00:15 then a 8:45 break creates a ratio close to 1:35 (1 sec of run with 35 sec off)
Making it run for 15 seconds at a clip would produce a off time of 8:45.
With that as a baseline you know that it will increase on your measurements.
running it at 0:15 / 7:15 makes it drop too quick.
So I just computed the ratio in excel and said to run it at 00:15 / 8:00.
Sorry for complicating it with out having a Corona for my self... LOL
"It's 5 o'clock somewhere" LOL
Normal ratio is 1:4 in connotation.
SO....
Running at at 00:15 then a 8:45 break creates a ratio close to 1:35 (1 sec of run with 35 sec off)
Making it run for 15 seconds at a clip would produce a off time of 8:45.
With that as a baseline you know that it will increase on your measurements.
running it at 0:15 / 7:15 makes it drop too quick.
So I just computed the ratio in excel and said to run it at 00:15 / 8:00.
Sorry for complicating it with out having a Corona for my self... LOL
"It's 5 o'clock somewhere" LOL
Thanks Joe:love1: I figured that the doser would have a hard time dosing 1 drop every +30 seconds :lolspin: I have tried my darn'est to take it slow:fun2: I'm just so afraid of having unreacted LC get into the tank:facepalm: I just need to be confident that everything will be fine...easier said then done for me. I promise Joe, I will try to keep the dose from being constantly changed once we decide what to go with!
