Mastino Mike
New member
No one has responded to Englishal's post yet in general reef discussion concerning boring or chewing critters? It will be good to know what to stay away from.
Large Plywood Tank
- Thread starter tomason
- Start date
I've never seen significant damage on rubber suction cups in any aquaria I've had. So I would guess that boring problems would be limited to larger animals with teeth- urchins, perhaps some types of turbo snails.
IME Both of these will do damage to plexiglas if it is allowed to be covered with coralline algae. When these animals remove the coraline, they dig iinto the plexiglas making scratches.
I personally would be more concerned about puncturing/damaging the lining with a rock-slide, or the like.
Bottom line is that by taking the cheaper DIY pond lining you are likely substantially increasing the possibility of a leak from puncture or boring.
How long do you want this tank to last?
When I built my homemade tank I accepted the fact that they might not last 20 years or even 5 years. If they last only two years, then at that point I can decide if I want to shell out $1000 for a professionally built tank (that might still eventually leak).
If you are absolutely sure you want a tank that will hold up for 10 years, I would argue that the additional cost of purchasing a professionally built aquarium will be minimal compared to the money you will put into the tank over that period in livestock, salt, power, lights, and the effort you'll put in to keep it up. So, I'd argue its not worth doing it on the cheap if your darn certain that the tank your planning is a relatively permenant fixture in your life.
IME Both of these will do damage to plexiglas if it is allowed to be covered with coralline algae. When these animals remove the coraline, they dig iinto the plexiglas making scratches.
I personally would be more concerned about puncturing/damaging the lining with a rock-slide, or the like.
Bottom line is that by taking the cheaper DIY pond lining you are likely substantially increasing the possibility of a leak from puncture or boring.
How long do you want this tank to last?
When I built my homemade tank I accepted the fact that they might not last 20 years or even 5 years. If they last only two years, then at that point I can decide if I want to shell out $1000 for a professionally built tank (that might still eventually leak).
If you are absolutely sure you want a tank that will hold up for 10 years, I would argue that the additional cost of purchasing a professionally built aquarium will be minimal compared to the money you will put into the tank over that period in livestock, salt, power, lights, and the effort you'll put in to keep it up. So, I'd argue its not worth doing it on the cheap if your darn certain that the tank your planning is a relatively permenant fixture in your life.
>> So, I'd argue its not worth doing it on the cheap if your darn certain that the tank your planning is a relatively permenant fixture in your life. <<
That is a really good point! It'd sure be a pain to have to tear down the tank in a couple years...I can't afford the LR for the tank now anyway, so I don't have to decide now. We'll see!
-Tom
That is a really good point! It'd sure be a pain to have to tear down the tank in a couple years...I can't afford the LR for the tank now anyway, so I don't have to decide now. We'll see!
-Tom
Mastino Mike
New member
Good point. It is highly unlikely that the liner will puncture due to a rock slide. IMO the liner is very strong and durable for long term use and even more so with padding under it. I would say order some samples and check different types of liners out. For a Fish only or Fowlr it is perfect. You only have one seal worry about and that is the liner against the glass or acrylic. You can get them in 65 mil thickness. My 700 gallon tank, just the tank. Wood, liner, acrylic, glue, silicone cost me under 900 dollars. Where can you find a price like that?
EnglishAl
In Memoriam
ChrisB and Mastino Mike
I intentionally did it that way so that the liner would act as a sort of gasket between the glass and the frame (with added silicone). I could put the glass next to the frame (sealed with silicone) and then silicone the liner to the glass but then you have to rely on the water pressure keeping the thin strip of liner against the glass. The way I propose, the pressure of the water against the whole surface of the glass transfers to the liner "gasket". As this is only a narrow strip, the pressure is quite high thus ensuring a good seal.
The whole point is moot though if the boring critter issue is not resolved to my satisfaction.
Alan
I intentionally did it that way so that the liner would act as a sort of gasket between the glass and the frame (with added silicone). I could put the glass next to the frame (sealed with silicone) and then silicone the liner to the glass but then you have to rely on the water pressure keeping the thin strip of liner against the glass. The way I propose, the pressure of the water against the whole surface of the glass transfers to the liner "gasket". As this is only a narrow strip, the pressure is quite high thus ensuring a good seal.
The whole point is moot though if the boring critter issue is not resolved to my satisfaction.
Alan
EnglishAl
In Memoriam
mastino mike
I would not worry about puncturing either. I have a Koi pond that's been up and running for almost 8 years with no problems. Even when the neighbors little rug rats took all of my rock from the waterfall and tossed them in the pond
:mad2:
I am more concerned about borers. Perhaps an inner lining of plastic or Acrylic panels glued to the liner would be the way to go. You wouldn't have to worry about sealing it as it's only there to protect the rubber. Now there's a thought.......... :idea: :idea:
Alan
I would not worry about puncturing either. I have a Koi pond that's been up and running for almost 8 years with no problems. Even when the neighbors little rug rats took all of my rock from the waterfall and tossed them in the pond
:mad2: I am more concerned about borers. Perhaps an inner lining of plastic or Acrylic panels glued to the liner would be the way to go. You wouldn't have to worry about sealing it as it's only there to protect the rubber. Now there's a thought.......... :idea: :idea:
Alan
Greetings... I was the guy with the "takes the cake" horror story (Soren's 300 Gallon Plywood / Acrylic Aquarium )
I know I'm WAY behind on updating my website, but everything has worked out great on the aquarium. I've had it up and running since early August with a few minor problem, but nothing major at all (with the exception of one of my Rubbermaid sumps cracking and leaking!).
The initial leaks I had while building the aquarium were due to the following reasons:
1) my bulkheads either weren't tight enough or need more silicon on them
2) I didn't coat the tank enough times with the epoxie paint. Plain and simple... I used a full gallon on it at first and it wasn't enough... after using an additional 1/2 gallon I didn't have any problems or leaks from the tank itself.
I hope to finish up my website soon with updates and current pics.
I used acrylic for the front sheet.... and I have been very pleased with that decision. It is LIGHTER and easier to see though then glass. So far I've found that using a BLUE pan scrubbie pad does not scratch the acrylic (never use the GREEN one... is rougher and tougher and I've even seen it scratch GLASS!).
I hope that I can instill a sense of confidence in the epoxie paint... even the lower grade plywood I used has been fine (which was of some concern when I was initially building the thing). IF I could do it again, I would probably spend MORE on the plywood... maybe get a nice OAK or BIRCH, but frankly out here in Arizona wood of that quality in 3/4" thickness run quite a bit.
Soren
I know I'm WAY behind on updating my website, but everything has worked out great on the aquarium. I've had it up and running since early August with a few minor problem, but nothing major at all (with the exception of one of my Rubbermaid sumps cracking and leaking!).
The initial leaks I had while building the aquarium were due to the following reasons:
1) my bulkheads either weren't tight enough or need more silicon on them
2) I didn't coat the tank enough times with the epoxie paint. Plain and simple... I used a full gallon on it at first and it wasn't enough... after using an additional 1/2 gallon I didn't have any problems or leaks from the tank itself.
I hope to finish up my website soon with updates and current pics.
I used acrylic for the front sheet.... and I have been very pleased with that decision. It is LIGHTER and easier to see though then glass. So far I've found that using a BLUE pan scrubbie pad does not scratch the acrylic (never use the GREEN one... is rougher and tougher and I've even seen it scratch GLASS!).
I hope that I can instill a sense of confidence in the epoxie paint... even the lower grade plywood I used has been fine (which was of some concern when I was initially building the thing). IF I could do it again, I would probably spend MORE on the plywood... maybe get a nice OAK or BIRCH, but frankly out here in Arizona wood of that quality in 3/4" thickness run quite a bit.
Soren
Hey, Soren
That's good to hear! There are several plywood tank accounts which document building the tank but don't have updates indicating whether it's still working or not. I'm glad yours is working!
Aquatic Ecosystems recommends epoxy paint to seal plywood tanks too. They have instructions on their website. It may be that this thread is more about paranoia and finding peace of mind rather than just coming up with a method of building a plywood tank that'll work.
As for the critters that chew through the tank lining....It'd be nice to know how much of a problem this really is. Are we getting nervous about being struck by lightning? While an urchin isn't going compromise the water-holding ability of an acrylic tank, if it can chew through epoxy, then it can definitely scratch the acrylic. It seems like this would have been encountered before....
Just wondering!
-Tom
That's good to hear! There are several plywood tank accounts which document building the tank but don't have updates indicating whether it's still working or not. I'm glad yours is working!
Aquatic Ecosystems recommends epoxy paint to seal plywood tanks too. They have instructions on their website. It may be that this thread is more about paranoia and finding peace of mind rather than just coming up with a method of building a plywood tank that'll work.
As for the critters that chew through the tank lining....It'd be nice to know how much of a problem this really is. Are we getting nervous about being struck by lightning? While an urchin isn't going compromise the water-holding ability of an acrylic tank, if it can chew through epoxy, then it can definitely scratch the acrylic. It seems like this would have been encountered before....
Just wondering!
-Tom
EnglishAl
In Memoriam
tomason
I agree with your conclusion - I too am not really concerned as to HOW to build the tank (I am a woodworker so I know all the stuff about plywood, glue, joints, etc.) it's more about having peace of mind with my final decision on waterproofing.
I'm still paranoid about the boring question (no pun intended).
Alan
I agree with your conclusion - I too am not really concerned as to HOW to build the tank (I am a woodworker so I know all the stuff about plywood, glue, joints, etc.) it's more about having peace of mind with my final decision on waterproofing.
I'm still paranoid about the boring question (no pun intended).
Alan
Mastino Mike
New member
EnglishAl,
Do you want to keep urchins? What are you planning on keeping? I guess that is the most important question. What type of "critters" come on live rock that you really need to worry about. How can you avoid any potential chewing or digging inverts?
Do you want to keep urchins? What are you planning on keeping? I guess that is the most important question. What type of "critters" come on live rock that you really need to worry about. How can you avoid any potential chewing or digging inverts?
Mastino Mike
New member
I would also agree that waterproofing is the most important thing. Basic tank construction is fairly simple.
Mastino Mike
New member
EnglishAl,
Well what size tank do you want? I think that plywood tanks are not worth it if their under 200g. Just my opinion. They only save money if they are extremely large.
Well what size tank do you want? I think that plywood tanks are not worth it if their under 200g. Just my opinion. They only save money if they are extremely large.
I would like to add a warning to those that have built and are building plywood tanks based on my unhappy experience in building a 1000 gallon tank a number of years back.
I double up 3/4"marine plywood. Fiber glassed the insides and coated the tank with several coats of 2 part epoxy paint. I used 5/8 " glass and silicone sealed it. Everything went fine.......the system was into about five months of cycling, and I had a few fish and coral in the tank.
I went I a skiing trip with my family and got an emergency call one evening from someone we had watching the house. This person knew little about fish and I'll always remember his comments......" I think your fish are sick"
I asked why he thought that and he replied, " They are all sleeping on the bottom of the tank"......OH Sh#t! All the water had leaked out of the tank.
What I found when I got home was the water was leaking around the glass. I couldn't imagine why because I used plenty of silicone between the glass and the plywood tank. I tried to re-silicone and seal leak both from the inside and out, but it would only come back after a week or two.
I finally decide I had to completely remove the glass and reset it. When removing the glass I discovered the problem....!
The silicone and epoxy are not compatible. While silicone is sit wet it reacted with the epoxy paint and virtually pealed it off of the fiberglass. The silicone stayed wet and didn't cure deep in the heavy bead I had made and reacted with the epoxy paint. The water was leaking between the paint and the fiberglass...no amount of silicone sealant would have solve the problem....In fact the more I used the worse the problem was because it slowed the curing process and gave it more time to react with the epoxy.
I hate to be a domes day courier, but it a problem anyone building a tank this way should be aware of.
From the great tank articles posted it sounds like a few have already leaking problems.........my bet it is caused by what I described.
I double up 3/4"marine plywood. Fiber glassed the insides and coated the tank with several coats of 2 part epoxy paint. I used 5/8 " glass and silicone sealed it. Everything went fine.......the system was into about five months of cycling, and I had a few fish and coral in the tank.
I went I a skiing trip with my family and got an emergency call one evening from someone we had watching the house. This person knew little about fish and I'll always remember his comments......" I think your fish are sick"
I asked why he thought that and he replied, " They are all sleeping on the bottom of the tank"......OH Sh#t! All the water had leaked out of the tank.
What I found when I got home was the water was leaking around the glass. I couldn't imagine why because I used plenty of silicone between the glass and the plywood tank. I tried to re-silicone and seal leak both from the inside and out, but it would only come back after a week or two.
I finally decide I had to completely remove the glass and reset it. When removing the glass I discovered the problem....!
The silicone and epoxy are not compatible. While silicone is sit wet it reacted with the epoxy paint and virtually pealed it off of the fiberglass. The silicone stayed wet and didn't cure deep in the heavy bead I had made and reacted with the epoxy paint. The water was leaking between the paint and the fiberglass...no amount of silicone sealant would have solve the problem....In fact the more I used the worse the problem was because it slowed the curing process and gave it more time to react with the epoxy.
I hate to be a domes day courier, but it a problem anyone building a tank this way should be aware of.
From the great tank articles posted it sounds like a few have already leaking problems.........my bet it is caused by what I described.
EnglishAl
In Memoriam
ldrhawke
Thanks for your input - sorry about the problem you had. I think the idea of using a rubber liner that would form a barrier between the plywood (sealed or not sealed) and the glass would solve that problem.
Mastino Mike
I am going to build a 120 gallon tank. I have a price for an all-glass tank from Bow Valley up in Canada for around $800 delivered (with Starfire front). If I use a preformed (box cut) liner, stainless steel angle frame and Starfire glass front these will be the only real expenses (I have the plywood in my shop). I am guessing that the glass, the frame, and liner will be about $450 so it should be worth it but we'll see when I get prices. Did you use Starfire glass for your front? If so how big and how much?
The other issue with a large all-glass tank is weight. A 120 weighs around #300 empty I think. Plywood is much lighter and stronger - the waterproofing is the only problem.
Alan
Thanks for your input - sorry about the problem you had. I think the idea of using a rubber liner that would form a barrier between the plywood (sealed or not sealed) and the glass would solve that problem.
Mastino Mike
I am going to build a 120 gallon tank. I have a price for an all-glass tank from Bow Valley up in Canada for around $800 delivered (with Starfire front). If I use a preformed (box cut) liner, stainless steel angle frame and Starfire glass front these will be the only real expenses (I have the plywood in my shop). I am guessing that the glass, the frame, and liner will be about $450 so it should be worth it but we'll see when I get prices. Did you use Starfire glass for your front? If so how big and how much?
The other issue with a large all-glass tank is weight. A 120 weighs around #300 empty I think. Plywood is much lighter and stronger - the waterproofing is the only problem.
Alan
Mastino Mike
New member
Ive never used epoxy, so I dont know much about it. Ive seen a pond liner used with glass and its had no leaking problems over 8 years at least. Ill post a pic of this tank as soon as I get a chance.
Mastino Mike
New member
EnglishAl,
It feels great to build and do things yourself but for a 120g tank I would just buy a tank, thats if your concerned with with chewing or boring inverts. Although you could probably build something that looks alot better because you are into woodworking?
It feels great to build and do things yourself but for a 120g tank I would just buy a tank, thats if your concerned with with chewing or boring inverts. Although you could probably build something that looks alot better because you are into woodworking?
SPC - I can't find it either now! It wasn't much different, if at all, from other methods, so I didn't pay much attention to it. Just build the frame out of wood and seal it with epoxy paint. The instructions were part of a larger pdf. Building a tank out of plywood was just one part of it. I only mentioned it because you could get the paint and instructions in one place. Oh well!
ldrhawke - Man, that would really suck! What kind of paint and silicone did you use?
It wasn't much different, if at all, from other methods, so I didn't pay much attention to it. Just build the frame out of wood and seal it with epoxy paint. The instructions were part of a larger pdf. Building a tank out of plywood was just one part of it. I only mentioned it because you could get the paint and instructions in one place. Oh well!ldrhawke - Man, that would really suck! What kind of paint and silicone did you use?
