Large tank guys I need your help! Fish room questions...

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10342527#post10342527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoGurl
Okay, I was talking to my bf's father today about this issue, and he suggested we vent the heat/humidity outside via fans and a humidity controller.

So this is what I was thinking.

I found this fan rated at 380CFM which is decent and only uses 112w of power.

http://www.atrendyhome.com/pafvwhce380c.html

I was thinking about installin two of these directly over my fish tank. One on each end and connect it to a heat/humidity sensor to come on and off as needed. The vent would go directly outside.

What do you think? Would this solve my problems and hopefully nothing else would be needed? Except maybe an AC unti to control the heat buildup if the fans would not surfice. I can deal with that. I am more interested in getting rid of the humidity problems.

Thanks!

Next time you are at Home Depot or Lowes, go check out the bathroom fans and listen to the ones marked 3.0 sones. If you ran two of them, that would be 6 sones. Loud.

Mine is maybe 1.25 sones - I can't recall off hand so I'd have to refer to my blog or my thread to be sure. I can't hear it at all, but it isn't quite strong enough. I guess two of the quiet ones would work in my fishroom.

 

[erics3000]

That is exactly what I wanted to hear. If people have used them with just a fan. I guess you can always add the de humidefier if you need it. Marc thanks again for the info for the watt conscious hobbyist.

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10342705#post10342705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clamdigr
I agree with cward, that is the unit I use too (well, mine is an Air1), works very well. My fan is also a Pany, though it is in-ceiling mounted like bath fan, not inline. Make sure the fan you get is rated for continuos duty in case it's on for long periods, most bath fans aren't meant for that. So far I've been OK using just the controller/fan, my tank is in the basement so this makes a difference for tank/room temp. In the winter the door to the fish room is closed and the outside fresh air vent is open, controller does what it needs to. So far this summer the door is open and the outside vent closed, the vents I put in the door are not big enough for it and the vent to be closed. Recently the room temp has been around 78 and the hum. runs between 45% and 55%. There is no moisture build up on any surfaces and no corrosion issues in the room (there are a few things that could rust in there) after 4 years of use. All of the walls are closed in so I can't say for certain what is happening inside them, I do have an access panel in the ceiling that I had out recently, no mold or anything in the floor joist area above the tank and nothing I could feal when I stuck my hand down behind the drywall on the outside (concrete) wall. Hope that all makes sense.

Thank you, that makes me feel a lot better.

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10342750#post10342750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Next time you are at Home Depot or Lowes, go check out the bathroom fans and listen to the ones marked 3.0 sones. If you ran two of them, that would be 6 sones. Loud.

Mine is maybe 1.25 sones - I can't recall off hand so I'd have to refer to my blog or my thread to be sure. I can't hear it at all, but it isn't quite strong enough. I guess two of the quiet ones would work in my fishroom.

Hmm... I wonder how many would be needed? I was just thinking two bc of helping to draw heat as well from both sides of the tank.

I'll check it out.

Thanks!

 

[Opcn]

I'm going to start out by admitting that I have not read all of the other posts, so I apologize for posting what others have already if I do.

What is as important as ventilation is building the room right, I would suggest using a paperless drywall (http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4659 is one) and putting a 12 mill vapor and air barrier up behind it (vapor barriers are not lineal, two 6 mills are equal to one 6 mill) as for the floor if you get your hands on a good flooring man you can slop it gently to a central drain which will help with water spills but make other issues for tank leveling.
As for the flooring avoid raised tiles and go with flat tiles that have very smooth texture, better than ceramic or stone tiles for dealing with tanks is linoleum (not vinyl, vinyl just plane sucks) or cork or even stained concrete, all three are water proof and as flat as you can get. Cork has some added sound damping benefits.

As to the sound issue, sound is both recorded and perceived on a logarithmic scale, not a lineal one, so two fans running together wouldn't seem to be twice as loud.

Edit: basements are usually pretty wet, don't skimp on the drain field, you can not beat a French drain.

 

[token]

It sure looks like a lot of GREAT advice!

NG, a lot of options exist to get that room under control and the climatic room controller is the best option, ime.

The single most important issue, to me, is that the moist air get out quickly and efficiently. I have opted to use a very powerful fan; it can void the raw volume of my very small fish room 2.5x in a minute. To do this requires making decisions that many would not. My fan will be louder than I would like and louder than many would tolerate.

Like Marc, I would not use the HVAC for the house, either upper or lower unit, to control the temperature of that room. The operating temp will need to be close to the temp of the tank for maximum efficiency. A free-standing unit can be had inexpensively.

Whatever you do, GL! Remember that another option is to delay the decisions until you occupy the house. "Green board" the room, as Marc suggested, use a vapor barrier behind the "green board" if you like, an excellent suggestion by Opcn, or decide to seal the room with a marine epoxy and such as others have done.

The options are really wide-open for both immediate consideration or later. The builder may be pressing you for decisions now or charging you for changes later but many, many tanks get installed after a house is built. Some of the numbers the builder has tossed your way seem a bit high when compared to the DIY route.

Again; Good Luck!

 

[cward]

Trust me, you can't even hear the Panasonic running. Not to mention the fact that a fishroom is not the quietest place in the house anyway. The controller controls temperature and humidity, so if you plan on having a dehumidifier, you can plug the fan into the temperature outlet. Having a dehumidifier in the basement is a good idea, but mine only lasted a couple years.

 

[Cuby2k]

Finally something I know a little about . . .

Take the volume of your room divided it by 6 for the required or desired airflow. So if the room is 10 feet by 10 feet with an 8 foot ceiling the volume is 800 cubic feet. Dividing that by 6 will give you the required airflow in cubic feet per minute to exchange the entire room volume every 6 minutes. Or in the example 800/6=133 CFM.

When selecting an exhaust fan do NOT get one that says it delivers 135 CFM, it will be undersized. Small fan manufacturers are like aquarium pump manufactures, they list what the potential of the fan is with ZERO restrictions in the airflow. So in pumps it is feet of head, in fans it is inches of water column. The actual flow will depend on the size of the duct, the length of the duct, how many elbows and stuff like that.

Right now I have to go to church, but I have a lot to say on this subject, I will continue in a bit . . .

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10343049#post10343049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Opcn
I'm going to start out by admitting that I have not read all of the other posts, so I apologize for posting what others have already if I do.

What is as important as ventilation is building the room right, I would suggest using a paperless drywall (http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4659 is one) and putting a 12 mill vapor and air barrier up behind it (vapor barriers are not lineal, two 6 mills are equal to one 6 mill) as for the floor if you get your hands on a good flooring man you can slop it gently to a central drain which will help with water spills but make other issues for tank leveling.
As for the flooring avoid raised tiles and go with flat tiles that have very smooth texture, better than ceramic or stone tiles for dealing with tanks is linoleum (not vinyl, vinyl just plane sucks) or cork or even stained concrete, all three are water proof and as flat as you can get. Cork has some added sound damping benefits.

As to the sound issue, sound is both recorded and perceived on a logarithmic scale, not a lineal one, so two fans running together wouldn't seem to be twice as loud.

Edit: basements are usually pretty wet, don't skimp on the drain field, you can not beat a French drain.

Thanks!

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10343484#post10343484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by token
It sure looks like a lot of GREAT advice!

NG, a lot of options exist to get that room under control and the climatic room controller is the best option, ime.

The single most important issue, to me, is that the moist air get out quickly and efficiently. I have opted to use a very powerful fan; it can void the raw volume of my very small fish room 2.5x in a minute. To do this requires making decisions that many would not. My fan will be louder than I would like and louder than many would tolerate.

Like Marc, I would not use the HVAC for the house, either upper or lower unit, to control the temperature of that room. The operating temp will need to be close to the temp of the tank for maximum efficiency. A free-standing unit can be had inexpensively.

Whatever you do, GL! Remember that another option is to delay the decisions until you occupy the house. "Green board" the room, as Marc suggested, use a vapor barrier behind the "green board" if you like, an excellent suggestion by Opcn, or decide to seal the room with a marine epoxy and such as others have done.

The options are really wide-open for both immediate consideration or later. The builder may be pressing you for decisions now or charging you for changes later but many, many tanks get installed after a house is built. Some of the numbers the builder has tossed your way seem a bit high when compared to the DIY route.

Again; Good Luck!

Hi Token!

Thanks for the advice/opinions! I am glad you checked out this thread, as I value your opinion as well.

I know/agree that many tanks are done after the fact. That's not a problem for us, and the route we will probably have to take.. as I'm not sure we can spend the cash for the tank prior to move in.. have to see on that. What I was trying to do was figure out anything that made more sense prior to the house being built.

The advantage that we have is the room is completely unfinished. We lucked out and there is an exhause duct running straight to the exterior in the room the tank will go in. The kitchen is right above it and the stove vent exits this way. So all we have to do is join to that. The quote came back as $850 for a 110cfm fan which is no where near good enough for this size room. Almost 19' x 15'.

So we are going to go ahead and wait and do everything ourselves once we move in. I plan on installing two panasonic fans/exhausts over the tank.. one on each end hooked up to the climatic controllers. Depending on how that does, we will seal off and finish the rest of the room as needed I guess. Still time to think about that one!

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344055#post10344055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cuby2k
Finally something I know a little about . . .

Take the volume of your room divided it by 6 for the required or desired airflow. So if the room is 10 feet by 10 feet with an 8 foot ceiling the volume is 800 cubic feet. Dividing that by 6 will give you the required airflow in cubic feet per minute to exchange the entire room volume every 6 minutes. Or in the example 800/6=133 CFM.

When selecting an exhaust fan do NOT get one that says it delivers 135 CFM, it will be undersized. Small fan manufacturers are like aquarium pump manufactures, they list what the potential of the fan is with ZERO restrictions in the airflow. So in pumps it is feet of head, in fans it is inches of water column. The actual flow will depend on the size of the duct, the length of the duct, how many elbows and stuff like that.

Right now I have to go to church, but I have a lot to say on this subject, I will continue in a bit . . .

LoL cuby! Not me!

Thanks for the great advice! I agree with what you said. Our room is rought 499cfm. I am planning on using two rated at 380cfm each. That will hopefully get it done

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10355011#post10355011 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoGurl
Hi Token!

Thanks for the advice/opinions! I am glad you checked out this thread, as I value your opinion as well.

I know/agree that many tanks are done after the fact. That's not a problem for us, and the route we will probably have to take.. as I'm not sure we can spend the cash for the tank prior to move in.. have to see on that. What I was trying to do was figure out anything that made more sense prior to the house being built.

The advantage that we have is the room is completely unfinished. We lucked out and there is an exhause duct running straight to the exterior in the room the tank will go in. The kitchen is right above it and the stove vent exits this way. So all we have to do is join to that. The quote came back as $850 for a 110cfm fan which is no where near good enough for this size room. Almost 19' x 15'.

So we are going to go ahead and wait and do everything ourselves once we move in. I plan on installing two panasonic fans/exhausts over the tank.. one on each end hooked up to the climatic controllers. Depending on how that does, we will seal off and finish the rest of the room as needed I guess. Still time to think about that one!

I don't understand why you can't make specific changes now before the house gets built. All we saw recently was dirt. Seems like you could have extra ductwork incorporated in the walls during construction, so the room is wired and vented to your needs. You can always set up the tank later.

How many circuits will that room have?

 

[ricks]

Your pre-planning is the way to go. To be sure you have everything in order... A completely stocked SPS tank will run between 75.00 and 100.00 per gallon.. somewhere around 20,000- 25,000.. By the time it's finished..

 

[token]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10355381#post10355381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I don't understand why you can't make specific changes now before the house gets built. All we saw recently was dirt. Seems like you could have extra ductwork incorporated in the walls during construction, so the room is wired and vented to your needs. You can always set up the tank later.

How many circuits will that room have?

I suspect that part of NG's "problem" is that any deviation from the standard floor plan (and its inherent systems) becomes an "upgrade" at a substantial mark-up. That's why a grossly under-capable single fan is $850.00.

"Want a fan or two in that room? We can get 'er done but it will cost you!" "More circuits, no problem. Let me run that past the architect and the electrician and get back to you on a number."

On top of that, each of these "upgrades" get rolled into the cost of the house, financed for thirty years, and the end result is well more than that $75.00-$100.00/gallon figure.

Just my guess, but I have been associated with the business long enough to be sure that contractor wants to get that house built without any changes. If changes are made, he is sure to make enough on the transaction to justify its oversight.

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10355381#post10355381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I don't understand why you can't make specific changes now before the house gets built. All we saw recently was dirt. Seems like you could have extra ductwork incorporated in the walls during construction, so the room is wired and vented to your needs. You can always set up the tank later.

How many circuits will that room have?

That's exactly what I am trying to get done now, things that I will need later that would be hard or not possible to do after we move in.

Yes, I can have them do almost anything that I want done, but at a big marc-up (lol) I don't mind paying for things that I want done if it's better now, but clown wants to do some of it himself so that's fine with me as long as I don't have too!

There are deadlines that we have to have things decided upon before the house gets built, after which they won't/can't change. There is a process. So basically if I wanted to go back in a month and say hey I want a wall here they would say no. I have to figure all of that out prior to the deadline.

The room that the fish is going into is completely undone. There is exposed drywall and wood and some of the walls just have insulation things and no drywall or wood.

I plan to have 3 circuits I think. Two for the fish, and one for others.

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10356372#post10356372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ricks
Your pre-planning is the way to go. To be sure you have everything in order... A completely stocked SPS tank will run between 75.00 and 100.00 per gallon.. somewhere around 20,000- 25,000.. By the time it's finished..

Thanks! Thats interesting info to know. I'm not going SPS though, but maybe a couple =)

 

[NanoGurl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10357118#post10357118 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by token
I suspect that part of NG's "problem" is that any deviation from the standard floor plan (and its inherent systems) becomes an "upgrade" at a substantial mark-up. That's why a grossly under-capable single fan is $850.00.

"Want a fan or two in that room? We can get 'er done but it will cost you!" "More circuits, no problem. Let me run that past the architect and the electrician and get back to you on a number."

On top of that, each of these "upgrades" get rolled into the cost of the house, financed for thirty years, and the end result is well more than that $75.00-$100.00/gallon figure.

Just my guess, but I have been associated with the business long enough to be sure that contractor wants to get that house built without any changes. If changes are made, he is sure to make enough on the transaction to justify its oversight.

Yup! That's pretty much basically what's going on. They are nice and willing to do stuff, but as you said for a big marc-up (lol not gonna stop saying that).

The fan thing irritated me. There is already an exhaust duck work there leading to the outside that we didn't see last time. All that they would need to do is install a $100 fan and connect it to the already existing duckwork going outside. Maybe 10' of duck? For $850 I thought they would have to drill outside, add all the duck, and so on. After we saw that we knew we could do it so we said no.

We also asked them to put in a wall that was about 15' long with greenboard. They came back as $775 without greenboard and unfinished with anything except wood and drywall. So that was crazy too.

Since the room is so unfinished we are going to just do everything once we move in and get the "lay of the land" thing down.

I feel comfortable now that with the exhaust fans and controller we can keep the room mold free! And it's nicer to be able to wait bc lots of things can change in a year.

 

[NanoGurl]

I forgot to mention the prices. Each circuit is $300. An electirc outlet is $100 and a switch to turn that outlet on is $125.

I don't know anything about electrical, but the electrical box is literally less then 20' from where all of the circuit outlets would go. $300 seems high for that to me.

 

[melev]

I have a suggestion. Just go up there during the construction phase often, and talk to the actual framers and electricians. Honestly, if a pretty girl came on the site we usually appreciated the distraction. I think you could get a few things added quite easily, at cost or free, depending on how many times you smiled.

And I'm being serious. I know what it sounds like, but the truth is it'll work. I was in construction for years, from framing to trim carpentry, and remodels as well. Use your edge, and you won't have to blow all that cash on rediculous upgrades. Running that extra circuit while the house is merely studs will take no time at all and the cost of wiring is nothing. It sounds like electricity is already covered, but getting that ductwork run will need the cooperation of the framer (to leave a large enough opening in the ceiling area over the basement). They can do it and it won't be a big deal.

Matter of fact, if your boyfriend is handy, you both could do some of this stuff yourself once the crews leave. I know several home owners that helped work on some things with our crews on site, and sometimes they came when we were off-site. We just worked around each other, and tried not to get the other 'side' angry. hehe

 

[token]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10357739#post10357739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoGurl
I forgot to mention the prices. Each circuit is $300. An electirc outlet is $100 and a switch to turn that outlet on is $125.

I don't know anything about electrical, but the electrical box is literally less then 20' from where all of the circuit outlets would go. $300 seems high for that to me.

This is another one of those issues where I personally would not pay a builder to add. I would hire an electrician, if I were reluctant to tackle the project myself, after moving in. The cost might not be a lot less, but it will be less and it will be dirt cheap after the calculations are done on what that $300.00 circuit costs when paid for over thirty years...