Large volume laminar flow machine

Using the jeabo DC pumps will help to keep the waves down as they start slow and speed up.
Other and you can connect all your bulkhead on each end and go underneath the tank.

Oh o e more thing you should up the size of your end pieces of glass. Example using 3/4 sides where regular 1/2 was used.

As many bulkheads will weaken the glass and it could Crack break much easier.

Also your tank should be about 1 foot longer than what you want to have the laminar flow as the first 6 inches of flow will be like a powerhead. After 6 inches it will become laminar as the water is pushed and sucked.
 
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A propeller is at least capable of reverse unlike the others, but even then it will suffer big losses in efficiency going in reverse, and at high speeds probably will even begin to cavitate.

Doing the gyre way of half of the fan going each direction is a solution but it could negatively affect the flow with turbulence... With one way bearings or clutches you could eliminate that by shutting down the wrong direction side, but thats complicated.

What is the goal of running them in reverse anyway? To push water down the tube across the back to the intake of the other side? Any sort of local suction will be minimal at best. The flow would also have to be pretty substantial to matter to the far side fans.


I agree with the closed loop thing still. This is all much much more complicated than it could be, and we still have no data on if this latest idea is more laminar than a box of nozzles with some diffuser grating in front of it... With a closed loop you can also increase flow almost trivially. Not enough? Add a pump. You aren't tied into a set dimension with fancy housings and such. One box of holes is the intake, other is the outlet, pipes in between can be shut off from the tank, new pumps added to that loop and put back into service. At the rate 20 rw20s are going you could get 12 dtc15000s. They claim 15000 lph or 3960 gph, or 47,000 gph for 12. Which is there in the 6-8" pvc needed for no- low-pressure applications.
 
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If 8" PVC is the easier option, I'll avoid that!

This is a closed loop system. It's just in the tank. About 6 pages back, we covered the closed loop idea and the complexities of reversing the flow and then laminarizing it at the ends.

I did the math and 6" can't put a dent in the flow rate needed.

Run it yourself and let me know how long and how many plates would be needed to laminarize 45.000 gph, for example. And 2 pumps?? What two pumps are going to generate this much flow in each direction?

Now walk through the structure to diffuse an 8" PVC outlet into an 18"'x 30" surface area...

The difference here is that the individual pumps... Propellers or blades are individually pulling on the duct mass and pushing forward in the right direction. All with the same force and without a complex internal distribution baffle.

Taking an 8" PVC and running 20 outlets out of it is easier that a straight and cheap duct with jebaos pointing in the right direction?

Maybe I just can't visualize it... I've worked large PVC and bulkheads before. The Swiss cheese side panels? And going to 3/4" ... With 20 bulkhead openings. Any idea of the cost of that piece?

If there is a easier design, please draw it up for me. I don't want a complicated design- I just don't see it.
 
Just how large is the radius on an 8" PVC pipe fitting? I'm looking to conserve space by cutting the wasted area back to 6" on each side (with the blades) or 12" (with the props)...
 
I've used the previous gen wp40 propellers for almost two years. They need to be cleaned but are quieter and push more than the vortech mp40 pumps I use in the hidden parts of the tank.

There are several threads about jebao in the forums. I've have 5 of their DC12000 and looking at their jgp30000 now.
 
No dude you only need four pumps actually I think the large dc12000 or you could use your jgp30000.

with the dc12000 you would need 4 of them and just go with 1.5 inch bulkheads and the 3/4 or 1 inch returns and have two pumps for each direction.
you would get around 6000 gph thru the tank each way which would be enough I think. or use 2 inch bulkheads and run 4 jgp 30000 16000 gph each way. or maybe one of each for each side.

Its up too how much money you want to throw at it.

so your jgp30000 would be 4 2 inch bulkheads and 4 1.5 inch bulkheads.
some pvc and supports cheap the pumps is all that's expensive which how many rw 20 s where you gonna run 40? that's 40 x 80 dollars.

That's $3200 dollars my friend.

4 x jgp 30000 just over $1000
4 x dc12000 $ just over $600

My point is you will have a system that is tried and true. With something like your trying algaes buildup things getting sucked thru food your just asking for headaches and problems.

Your going to be spending more time cleaning fixing and maintaining the damn thing then enjoying the tank.

Just go with closed loop oh not to mention hermits and snails crawling in and on those things.

Bulkhead strainers pvc and pumps all you need.

pic blue is inlets and black are outlets just put a pump in between each blue and black bulkhead with two pumps going one way and two flowing the other way. Done
 

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RW20 = 5300gph x 10 = 53,000 gph each way. This is open duct flow - no pipe resistance.
DC12000 = 3200gph x 2 = 6,400 gph each way. That's before taking 10' of 2" line losses into account.

You're comparing a hurricane to portable fan...
 
This got me thinking about gorgok's question about why push and pull...

Basically, inertia.

If we blow water out of one side, the mass through the duct will need to accelerate, as will the mass in the tank. This takes time and time is the enemy of a rapid switching flow.

If we blow out of one side and simultaneously push water into the duct, the mass in the water will experience the push and pull at the same time. The resulting wave would be minimized.

I realize the blade is hard to reverse and this is a key... so back to the propellers, I guess.

I ran through all the different pumps and propellers to look for the highest gph/$... Here's what I saw:

pump @ price @ gph = gph/$
RW-20 @ $79.65 @ 5300 = 66.5
RW-15 @ $75.30 @ 4000 = 53.1
RW-8 @ $63.92 @ 2100 = 32.9
RW-4 @ $49.99 @ 1057 = 21.1

WP-60 @ $72.99 @ 5300 = 72.6
WP-40 @ $67.58 @ 3400 = 50.3
WP-25 @ $44.37 @ 2113 = 47.6
WP-10 @ $42.99 @ 1057 = 24.6

DCT 15000 @ $149.99 @ 3963 = 26.4
DCT-12000 @ $121.68 @ 3170 = 26.1
DCT-8000 @ $99.99 @ 2113 = 21.1
DCT-6000 @ $92.99 @ 1585 = 17.0
DCT-4000 @ $78.67 @ 1057 = 13.4

DC 12000 @ $143.54 @ 3170 = 22.1
DC 9000 @ $122.39 @ 2378 = 19.4
DC 6000 @ $102.00 @ 1585 = 15.5
DC 3000 @ $79.95 @ 793 = 9.9

JGP @ $299.99 @ 9000 = 30.0
JGP @ 147.97 @ 7900 = 53.4
JGP @ $134.95 @ 6600 = 48.9
JGP @ $156.93 @ 5200 = 33.1
JGP @ $159.99 @ 4500 = 28.1
JGP @ $140.99 @ 4000 = 28.4
JGP @ $143.99 @ 3500 = 24.3
JGP @ $139.98 @ 2500 = 17.9
JGP @ $129.99 @ 1800 = 13.8
JGP @ $79.99 @ 1200 = 15.0
JGP @ $89.99 @ 1000 = 11.1

So the WP-60 (that's the one I already use now, actually) happens to have the highest gph/$ at 73. I thought I had WP-40s, but they're WP-60s.

Maybe I can use a manifold or PVC corners to distribute flow evenly.

I'm going to use the engineering toolbox for head loss to see if I can't create a PVC pipe based uniform distribution system.
 
Random thought on the paddle idea-a paddle with a pivot point, the paddle is sprung to always return, the paddle is driven by a cam.
 
The question wasn't meant to be why push and pull, but why try to force those fans to do it. Whatever they make in reverse is basically meaningless, which means you end up with having to have a separate fan blowing into the tube with a local intake. Cutting the fan in half with a clutch/one way assembly is still the same as just turning half the pumps off. But this shouldn't be the case with props... Even if you lose half the efficiency its still meaningful suction like from the other setups run in normal mode.

But the question is how simple (or possible) is it to tell the pumps to go in reverse? BLDC motors shouldn't care... The wiring on these pumps is a simple 24V, signal and ground, but how does that translate into the separate windings as found on 3 lead BLDC motors? I assume it has some fancier wiring (and probably circuit board) in the potted core, as its not really a direct current motor where flipping the voltage and ground will have it run the other direction. I don't actually know what the pump would say if you did that, it might even let out some magic smoke. Back to half the pumps off instead of reverse?

Maybe not. Heres something more crazy... The gyre can already reverse. Its already waterproof... and i assume it has a shaft or something. What would it look like swinging a pair (or just one) of big-ish props without those silly paddles and covers? Pretty sweet i think. Jacks up the price, but works in both directions to some degree! Plastic props are cheap, just look for RC boat stuff like Octura props.

Edit to add: But as i have actually never actually seen a gyre in person i don't know if there is a hidden issue in this. Normal prop pumps have some sort of thrust bearing surface (the wp's seem to have one in both ends too), but does the gyre motor have one on each direction? Or any at all? I would assume it has to have bearing surfaces in both directions, since you can run opposite paddles it and it will have loads pushing one way when run in one direction with the intake actually working on one side and not really on the other and pushing the opposite direction when the the reverse is true. With both in the same direction, either working or not, the forces should be roughly equal. But then are those in the motor part or at the ends of the paddles in the housings? Hmm.



As to the boxes and pvc idea, i was visioning manifolding off a stub of the bigger pipe as soon as possible, and not necessarily using 8" directly just something with equivalent area, like 4 4"s manifolded into 3 1-1/2"s each or similar. The bulkheads would have gone on the top of the boxes to prevent drilling the tank ever, making it entirely removable.

The issue i came up with getting it all down from vague idea to more concrete example was that i would have wanted to place the cross pipes above the tank keeping it all as simple as possible. You'd bunch up half the pipes near the front and half near the back to prevent lighting interference, but it still leaves the pumps up above the tank. And at least as i'm aware these sorts of pumps can't self prime like pool pumps, so... no go. You could run them under the tank though, i'd have the pumps intake point under the tank and go up and over to the far box, the outlets point up into the manifolds on the near box. Half the pumps on each side. Rows of pumps sitting on both sides of the tank like that might even look quite neat. The holey boxes would just be drilled enough to make up the combined area of half the pumps' intakes plus some extra for growth/buildup, sized and spaced to cover as much of the area as wanted. Some extra depth of straight/checkered baffles after the holes would probably help this as much as it helps props become more laminar sooner. Basically, a large square showerhead at each end with 6 pumps powering it in each direction.

Like this rendering:

practically%20solidworks.png


The greens would be intakes, reds outlets. Only shown with a 8 pump configuration for simplicity sake. Live rock and corals omitted for file size issues... And stuff.
 
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DC motors are reversible without issue. DC pumps (I think) are just DC motors with propellers, impellers, or cross flow blades.

I don't think the gyre is a practical cost effective item, but any DC pump will do as long as I can contain the shaft and control its precession.

I'm not envisioning the paddles idea. You mean straight flat pieces that rotate like paddles at an opening instead of a curved cross flow blade with a volute?

In terms of pipe vs duct... I think the restriction of PVC pipes are a real drag (pun intended) compared to a massively wide 12" x 20" duct. That's the equivalent of 76 x 2" PVC pipes!! Where would I run that many PVC pipes?

This is a long tank too, so we're talking about 10' runs, elbows, manifolds... Just an absolute monster PVC job. All to duplicate what 4 sheets of 0.5" acrylic would do.

In my latest version, I use the glass of the tank directly. It acts as the duct and all I need is to create an acrylic seal at the top and feed it into the pump boxes.

I've worked big PVC and I've worked acrylic. There is no way that a huge PVC build is easier or cheaper... And since it's all submerged, it doesn't have to be perfect... I can't tell you how much of a relief that is compared to dozens of 2" PVC joints (if not much more).

Back to these paddles... So if they're reversible, what makes the water flow one way, not the other?
 
DC motors are reversible without issue. DC pumps (I think) are just DC motors with propellers, impellers, or cross flow blades.

Brushed DC motors, yes. None of those in our tanks...

Brushless DC motors are a different beast entirely. They are really more like 3 phase AC motors with DC supplies and a computer flipping switches on which winding to run positive or negative and when. The switch flipping basically creates square wave AC, in simple terms.

In the RC world the motor is separate from the computer in general. This computer powers the 3 leads of the motor as it needs to to run the motor. The computer also has to know how fast its turning to know when to fire the windings so on sensorless motors its reading back emf from the same leads to know what the motor is actually up to.

With how the jebao's are wired its likely the computer that does the driving is in the motor, like on computer fans, so i don't think it will be simple to reverse them. You at least cant just hook up your own controller to bypass theirs. Not sure if any of the other DC pump makers expose the winding leads to the controller either, or are they also just controlled by a signal. Even the gyre might only expose the signal wire, it might just call half the signal reverse and half forward and end up being wired like the jebao.

There are good reasons they would do this, most of them end up being the same though, it costs less. Running more/heavier wires to the motor costs more. Shielding them better costs more. Having to cool the controller separately costs more.
 
It seems as though we have completely returned to the basic concept phase, with everything back on the table. Gyres, props, propellers, impellers, paddles with and without cams. We blew by the vertical displacement, square paddle idea because we were deep into the Gyre at the time.

Let's get some feedback on post #317 from that surfer dude. Ok, that was me. "¦but not in the picture. Anyway, it's competitively simple from a mechanical perspective. It has parts that have worked before.

Also "¦.is anyone else going to MACNA in DC this weekend? I will try to take a good look at the GYRE booth but I will need to know what to look for and what to ask, in order to give this thread some decent feedback on my observations. Any thoughts or questions to ask?
 
They have a big 70W version on development. Would be good to get a timeline and cost estimate?

I terms of performance, how laminar is the output flow? How directional is it? Can you create a sheet barrier between the intake and outlet to force flow from another part of the tank?

They use reversible blades to get reverse flow... Interesting idea but wasteful for at least half of the design.
 
Brushed DC motors, yes. None of those in our tanks...

Brushless DC motors are a different beast entirely. They are really more like 3 phase AC motors with DC supplies and a computer flipping switches on which winding to run positive or negative and when. The switch flipping basically creates square wave AC, in simple terms.

In the RC world the motor is separate from the computer in general. This computer powers the 3 leads of the motor as it needs to to run the motor. The computer also has to know how fast its turning to know when to fire the windings so on sensorless motors its reading back emf from the same leads to know what the motor is actually up to.

With how the jebao's are wired its likely the computer that does the driving is in the motor, like on computer fans, so i don't think it will be simple to reverse them. You at least cant just hook up your own controller to bypass theirs. Not sure if any of the other DC pump makers expose the winding leads to the controller either, or are they also just controlled by a signal. Even the gyre might only expose the signal wire, it might just call half the signal reverse and half forward and end up being wired like the jebao.

There are good reasons they would do this, most of them end up being the same though, it costs less. Running more/heavier wires to the motor costs more. Shielding them better costs more. Having to cool the controller separately costs more.

Hmm.. The truth is I never questioned the ability to reverse the flow electronically.

If they're not reversible, then either an alternating matrix of fans is needed, yuck! Or accept that one side will do the pushing and pulling at any one time.

The second is probably ok, but a 50% wasted investment in pump $.

Still, probably better.
 
practically%20solidworks.png

The greens would be intakes, reds outlets. Only shown with a 8 pump configuration for simplicity sake. Live rock and corals omitted for file size issues... And stuff.

Love the rendering!! When did you put that in?

I get the concept, but I see every joint of PVC as a liability. The number of pumps and pipes here is very high, so I see a lot of risk. And the flow reduction vs. a duct is very real IMO.
 
It seems as though we have completely returned to the basic concept phase, with everything back on the table. Gyres, props, propellers, impellers, paddles with and without cams. We blew by the vertical displacement, square paddle idea because we were deep into the Gyre at the time.

Let's get some feedback on post #317 from that surfer dude. Ok, that was me. "¦but not in the picture. Anyway, it's competitively simple from a mechanical perspective. It has parts that have worked before.

Also "¦.is anyone else going to MACNA in DC this weekend? I will try to take a good look at the GYRE booth but I will need to know what to look for and what to ask, in order to give this thread some decent feedback on my observations. Any thoughts or questions to ask?

The idea of using baffles to direct the flow is good, but it depends on the space needed to create (1) a uniform flow and (2) a directional flow, and (3) a laminar flow.

We've gone all over the place, but the idea of using a channel in the tank is pretty novel and avoids the need for external pipes while maximizing flow.

Whether it's a paddle, injector piston, or a pump (or series of pumps), the duct works... Also, sealing the top of the duct below water level pushes the most horizontal flow possible. That's the second big innovation here.

You could argue that making a double floor duct is better that making a double back wall, but the idea of a 6" false floor of glass feels risky to me... Even with vertical channels inside of it... But that's just a concept to toy with. I still need to find someone to build it!!

I like the simple propellor pumps because they will pull flow to them vs push flow like an external pump would. So whether top left or bottom right placement, each pump will suck the same amount of water and create a uniform flow.

The problem is that it's not directional (looks like a cone) or laminar.
 
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