Large volume laminar flow machine

Thanks :)

I think the size is what's intimidating about these pistons. It takes a lot of power to move that much volume of water. Pumps do it internally, but a DIY massive piston and powerful actuators ... Probably needs a more skilled and experienced DIYer.

Probably can mock it up, and that's a good way to learn.
 
Here's the pump/actuator setup for a simple max flow pump.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg"/></a>

Looks more complicated than it really is. The pump is always on and pumping in the same direction, the actuators turn together to convert the flow direction.

Can anyone see a way to make this plumbing simpler?
 
stuck on the pump selection. Even the 3HP Reeflo Commercial Baldor pump can only do 12500gph. For a 24"x 24" cross section, that's about 1.4in/s. I'll need to downsize the boxes to 15"x 15". That may be ok since this is a retrofit for now and I can get that to fit into my existing tank.

That generates about 4in/s of motion using 2.5" of straw length. with 0.5" of eggcrate/mesh and 2" of plumbing, I think the box can be 15" x 15" x 5".

The pump has 88ft of head. I haven't calculated the back pressure of the box, but I don't expect it'll be that high (famous last words).
 
Wow. Is it reef safe?
I've never used variable frequency drive. Do they have any off the shelf that would work or is it a DIY?
 
Dont know about it being "reef safe", they are made for Koi ponds, so I wouldnt think there are any harmful metals in it..
It looks to be made from a plastic/poly material..
You buy the VFD for the HP of the motor (and Phaseing)
They are simple to setup,, some even have inputs that will trigger preset speeds..
The VFD also controls the on/off of the motor via an input (normally a dry contact)

As for the slots in the guide box portion,, quit trying to mill them out,, just cut strips and stack them up..
Will be easier to mock up that way... :)
 
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Something I've daydreamed about is using a motor to drive an arm that rocked back and forth from the center. Each end of the arm would have an attached displacement vessel. The vessels would rock up and down in the 1' tank ends. I realize this is very similar to what Jake2045 had in mind, but if the 1' ends were made taller than the tank and the wall separating the 1' sections had well placed, say 6" holes, couldn't that create the bulk water movement you're looking for without a wave?
 
In my mind's eye, it was rigged up behind the tank. The 1' sections would be next to each other so the arm is only 2-3' long. 12" drain pipe would connect to the tank. I also had the vessels wrapped in mesh with 660nm LEDs shining on them for an algae filter. In my dreams, that is...
You build amazing stuff for your tank. Can't wait to see how this shakes out!
 
I am a crazy designer by trade and I have given this issue a great bit of thought over the years. The solutions that I have come up with or have found are not easy. Unfortunately, most of them are quite ugly as well.

Most of the surge devices don't remove water as fast as it is dumped in so in many cases you need an unused area above the standard water line to allow for the water to rise. That's good for commercial aquariums and people that have a lot of money time and space but it won't fit in my living room. More power to those that have more room to play with. I do have a 2 gallon dump bucket ATS above the tank but the splash is anemic. We are talking about large volume flow here.

I hope to peel off only part of the problem and try to address that. I want to use a single large pump to do the work along with a water flow switch.

I want to keep zooplankton alive in an NPS tank so I came up with a couple of non-traumatic pump designs but that is not very important for most reefers and I won't explore them here.

Looking around the net, I saw that one engineer made this flow switch. This is a small version of what I wanted to build. Actually there are other switch designs that may work a lot better but this was the first one that I saw, many years ago. This is here just to explain the concept even though it was briefly mentioned earlier in the thread. With new 3-D printing many other designs are becoming feasible.


This project would require scaled up sizes and volumes in the design.

PumpSwitchDevice.jpg


I wanted to double the flow ports so that the pump could have pushed and pulled at the same time. The core would have looked something like this. I added this graphic that I modeled back then only to give you an idea of what I had in mind many years ago.

PumpSwitchCore.JPG


This graphic shows how water is pushed and pulled at the same time.

PumpSwitch.JPG


In this graphic, I show three pumps of different sizes (Bottom Left) that could be used together but I would just use one. The water flows through the single pump (Blue) and splits to go (Up) through the left side of the switch. Depending on where you are in the cycle, the water goes through the open side (O) and is held back on the other side (-). The open side goes to one side of the tank and the close to the other. The red side opens to pull at the same time so as to get better push/pull flow. Then everything smoothly slows, goes neutral and then reverses.


On the reef, I see (mostly on television) that there are lots of different cycle times on different reefs and/or different parts of the same reef and/or on different days. Given this freedom, I plan to have a longer cycle time of perhaps somewhere between 15 to 30 seconds total including dead time.

As stated earlier in the thread, there is a time when the switch is in transition and energy is wasted but on the other hand, the switching changes gradually, gracefully and naturally "¦ at least in my imagination! You would have to weigh out whether ramping the pump up and down would save money over keeping the speed of the pump constant.

As for true laminar flow, I have looked at clear Plexiglas boxes at either end that run from front to back and from top to bottom but only 2 inches wide with different openings, including straws and a million other ideas "¦well maybe 50. I have looked at larger diameter clear tubing with outboard cowling, a little like the front of airliner fan jets. I have even looked into the patents for super soakers and Dyson bladeless fans. I designed and had built a similar structure before his but with a different purpose. There are lots of ideas but again, most are ugly.

I will tag along because I am more of a designer and a dreamer than a doer. At work, others actually produce my designs. At home I get very little done so I will be glad to see what you guys and gals can come up with and actually build.
 
I'll think through the piston concepts again.

These 1KW or 3HP pumps are massive power hogs.

Any way you do it will be costly to run, at least on the scale you want..
Something has to push the piston or pump the water,, pneumatic/hydraulic or mechanical. You are wanting to move alot of water...

The ideas so far would be perfect for smaller setups, or even a Nem only tank (no exposed powerheads).. Even raising the surge tank up to build speed will be costly since you have to get the water back up there...

I just dont see it working on the scale you want without it being costly to run..

On another note ,, Salty Joe that idea with the arm would make a killer steampunk theme tank,,if you are into that
 
Welcome herring! I made my first alternating flow DIY back in the early 2000s and even reused the motor for my current design. I also used the parts to make my current surge actuator.

Roll the historical film - imagine shimmering memory clip here -

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F302B9BE-E9FB-41F9-B074-CD784BCBC8C9-2040-000001D0069ED3E1_zps2018a29e.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F302B9BE-E9FB-41F9-B074-CD784BCBC8C9-2040-000001D0069ED3E1_zps2018a29e.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F302B9BE-E9FB-41F9-B074-CD784BCBC8C9-2040-000001D0069ED3E1_zps2018a29e.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F24AD132-E1BC-421D-B26F-2B64BADBC968-2040-000001D00E604B08_zpsac01bf22.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F24AD132-E1BC-421D-B26F-2B64BADBC968-2040-000001D00E604B08_zpsac01bf22.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F24AD132-E1BC-421D-B26F-2B64BADBC968-2040-000001D00E604B08_zpsac01bf22.jpg"/></a>

Here's my current alternator in design, test and use

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/34EC2803-6AC4-4727-8D32-C31A78D6544A-368-0000004F1AE5E5DE_zps17466ec4.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34EC2803-6AC4-4727-8D32-C31A78D6544A-368-0000004F1AE5E5DE_zps17466ec4.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 34EC2803-6AC4-4727-8D32-C31A78D6544A-368-0000004F1AE5E5DE_zps17466ec4.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CA7101FF-841C-4938-B2B6-D4665B590DA0-368-0000004F17ADB133_zps699ab4c3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CA7101FF-841C-4938-B2B6-D4665B590DA0-368-0000004F17ADB133_zps699ab4c3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CA7101FF-841C-4938-B2B6-D4665B590DA0-368-0000004F17ADB133_zps699ab4c3.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/E1F69AE7-6200-4A76-9F87-21F75DEC5A1B-177-00000019DE7171B7_zps28563a95.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/E1F69AE7-6200-4A76-9F87-21F75DEC5A1B-177-00000019DE7171B7_zps28563a95.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E1F69AE7-6200-4A76-9F87-21F75DEC5A1B-177-00000019DE7171B7_zps28563a95.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/BC7D0B65-E2C8-45A8-B346-7EF45C82BF73-177-00000019DCAA1473_zps6b82cec1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/BC7D0B65-E2C8-45A8-B346-7EF45C82BF73-177-00000019DCAA1473_zps6b82cec1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BC7D0B65-E2C8-45A8-B346-7EF45C82BF73-177-00000019DCAA1473_zps6b82cec1.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4B6FC3D7-9FB6-414F-995D-4927DDAFD7D4-177-0000001A3CA655E0_zps7d031838.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4B6FC3D7-9FB6-414F-995D-4927DDAFD7D4-177-0000001A3CA655E0_zps7d031838.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4B6FC3D7-9FB6-414F-995D-4927DDAFD7D4-177-0000001A3CA655E0_zps7d031838.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/79A78C72-47F7-4A35-A6DB-96AD8D643758-367-0000003AC16711F5_zpsa4d905e3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/79A78C72-47F7-4A35-A6DB-96AD8D643758-367-0000003AC16711F5_zpsa4d905e3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 79A78C72-47F7-4A35-A6DB-96AD8D643758-367-0000003AC16711F5_zpsa4d905e3.jpg"/></a>

http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/k...305-827-0000013EFC853B4A_zpsc78786c6.mp4.html

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4498AC40-8CE0-4047-9836-D44D27181C66_zpsfmr5dbco.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4498AC40-8CE0-4047-9836-D44D27181C66_zpsfmr5dbco.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4498AC40-8CE0-4047-9836-D44D27181C66_zpsfmr5dbco.jpg"/></a>

And the usage

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/D1A064B7-C3FC-46D5-92D1-10706AF6286F_zpsnhmf81m8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/D1A064B7-C3FC-46D5-92D1-10706AF6286F_zpsnhmf81m8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo D1A064B7-C3FC-46D5-92D1-10706AF6286F_zpsnhmf81m8.jpg"/></a>
 
The flow alternator on my tank now gradually changes the direction of my return pump outlets. It's not the same as the laminar motion.

The difference is that the change in direction is sinusoidal. The laminar flow's timing isn't. The state is 5 sec one way 100%, 1 sec transition, 5 seconds the other way 100%, 1 sec transition...

That's why I was looking at three way valves for the flow motion here. That and I'm worried about a high pressure DIY at 20k gph. :D
 
James, I agree. The power needed to move that much water that fast is high. The concern is the conversion of that power efficiently into linear motion.

I'll do some math on the output vs input power
 
Here's the pump/actuator setup for a simple max flow pump.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsvh2md6se.jpg"/></a>

Looks more complicated than it really is. The pump is always on and pumping in the same direction, the actuators turn together to convert the flow direction.

Can anyone see a way to make this plumbing simpler?


I Do not think the pump intake can keep up with the output.. Especially in the Right side (Last Drawing)
I have this issue with my Reeflo pump right now.. because of space there are elbows on the intake 1 1/2 two of them . 1 output 1 1/2 . i have to throttle the output way back to keep enough water feed into the pump . Going to Re drill the tank with 2 1/2 inch input to the pump...

Now According to reeflo. I can leave it as it is.. but just move the pump to have 3 feet from the last elbow to the pump input...

I Think you will need two loops. One to pull water and one to push.... with two bulkheads in each end of the tank....... If the tank was Pressurized none of the above would apply it would just bottleneck the pump....
 
The two boxes are pressurized. There's no overflow/return. Intake box and output box see all pressure.

I agree on the distance from output to first elbox. I need to leave enough straight run to avoid losing a lot of head and flow.
 
So the power to move a 24" x 24" x 20" box of water (assuming 4in/s for 5sec) is under 200W. This is raw force x velocity and completely lossless.

The 3HP pump can only deliver 1/3 of that motion ~ 1.4in/s... That's not the right answer.
The 1kW torpedo does 1/4 of the required flow ~ 1.1in/s... That's more efficient, but no right either.

If I downsize the boxes to 12" x 12", this becomes easier, but becomes more like a powerhead. It doesn't shift the volume, it creates a flow pushing and another pulling. The rest of the tank's volume will interfere with the two flows and stop the "shifting" motion.
 
Ok - reset - to be realistic, I think 1in/s is viable.

That reduces the needed output power to 12W. That's a fictional number since it's a simplistic view of moving the water block without anything around it. It ignores all frictional forces that we need to overcome, ...
 
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