Large volume laminar flow machine

[Gorgok]

Thinking on this further the laminar flow fountain stuff comes to mind as a possibility if you are indeed willing to lose ~2 feet of tank space... Not with straws because they will clog too fast, but a compromise of some size/length you can live with and 2 decent pressure pumps. One intakes from the left 'straw box' and outputs in the right, the other the reverse. Only one can be on at any point.

But for them to work i think you must have enough pressure in the box, and back pressure in the tubes, for it to fill the whole thing instead of just running out the first holes it can... not sure how big a pump like that is on a ~2' x 2' area.

 

[karimwassef]

I started with the best idealized case and I'll probably walk backup an acceptable solution that is just good enough. 2' out of an 8' tank would yield excellent results, but maybe 3" is good enough?

Also the rockwork will interfere. So unless I change my rock to open water volume ratio, I can reduce the box a little from the edges.

Maybe two boxes, 18" x 24" x 3" made of 1/2" acrylic with the slit face doubled up to 1". Horizontal 1/4" slits separated by 1/4"? The slits would be 1" deep, 1/4" high and 1/4" apart. Inlet of two 2" PVC pipes from the top.

Painted to minimize internal fouling...

I agree the key here is pressure so the slits share more equally too.

This may be possible.

Wish I had modeling software to optimize some of the dimensions.

 

[karimwassef]

1/4" may suck some thin fish and shrimp in... Hmmm that's not good.

The greater the aspect ratio of the slit cross-section, the more laminar the flow. So 1/4" x 1" is 4:1, maybe 1/8" x 1.5" to get a 12:1 and double up on the slit count?

I'm going to need a really good machinist or milling CNC.

 

[karimwassef]

At 27000 gph, the linear flow rate through a slit would be 8" a second... Enough for a shrimp to not get sucked in?

 

[saf1]

The issue you have is the size of your environment (e.g. aquarium) you are working with. I know what you are trying to do as I am also an active diver. However, I've come to the conclusion that it really isn't possible to replicate some of these things just due to the size of our tanks.

Personally I think Slief's method will get you the closest. I am doing something similar to what he describes on my 40 breeder with a pair of RW-4's. In your case just don't run any surface power heads or sea swirls (love those things btw - great devices) so all the flow is in the lower 2/3rd's of the tank. You will need to adjust duration and probably left, right, and height placement but I bet you would get what you want that way.

One other thing I'd consider is how your tank is manufactured. Standard over the counter tanks are not really built with surge or waves in mind. That sort of stuff is going to require some additional engineering to support the tank walls. May not be applicable to what you are considering but figured I'd throw that out there.

 

[ericarenee]

I am not convinced that the two pump method will work. To me it seems like you would need 4 pumps using pumps

one in each direction on each end with some type of valve similar t check valve and a Volute of some type.. Hard to describe.

So the pump on the right pulls water out and into the chamber on the left . While the pump on the left is pushing that pulled water into the tank across the right of the tank.. Then those two shut off and close the Above mentioned valve..

Then the second pump on the right push water into the tank while the second pump on the left pulls waster out and pushes it thru a 2nd pipe into the right.. Kinda like a Double closed loop on timers.....

Thinking about this building a baffle or some type of valve to push the water into the slots right Might be the best solution over some mechanical swing gate as i originally talked about.... The one i seen in action however was a gate... But its been 15 years since i at the aquarium . that tank might not have lasted long term. Do not know if its still there or not..

In theory either system will work . But likely to have design kinks to work out.. Slot sizes Baffels design pump and plumbing.. .

The pumps will have to go in bulkheads at the end of the tank next to each other may make the above mentioned valves not needed when i picture this in my head... A Controller with soft on and off pumps i think will be required....


---------------------------------- MIND CHANGE----------------

TWO Big HUGE PUMPS Behind the tank in two closed loops Of Course the pumps will be connected to bulklheads on the far end of the glass NOT AT THE SLOT Wall.. one in each direction on a timer may eliminate the need for 4 pumps.. I do think check valves will be needed to stop the water from back circulation thru the off pump.during its down cycle

 

[karimwassef]

I have a large surge already - dual 20g surges that run for 10seconds.

I also run two WP-60s on opposite ends of my eight foot tank. I have standing waves and tremendous motion on the surface and depth.

I also have two opposing MP40s that do the same behind the rockwork too.

 

[karimwassef]

I was thinking of a reversible DC pump that can do it both ways.

They don't work as well in reverse, so I was thinking of two pumps in series and in opposite directions with opposite polarities. The idea is that one pump is always running in its forward direction. The second is just providing more pressure to make up for the impedance it is creating in-line.

Efficiency isn't top of list right now - a dual bi directional reversible inline pump configuration should do it. The two boxes, pipes and pumps are basically a closed loop massive power head that sucks on one wall and pumps in at the other through laminarizing plates.

Is laminarizing a real word ??

 

[ericarenee]

I was thinking of a reversible DC pump that can do it both ways.

They don't work as well in reverse, so I was thinking of two pumps in series and in opposite directions with opposite polarities. The idea is that one pump is always running in its forward direction. The second is just providing more pressure to make up for the impedance it is creating in-line.

Efficiency isn't top of list right now - a dual bi directional reversible inline pump configuration should do it. The two boxes, pipes and pumps are basically a closed loop massive power head that sucks on one wall and pumps in at the other through laminarizing plates.

Is laminarizing a real word ??

if not i will submit it to wiki ......

Yea i get the concept. Maybe 1 pump with some type of electric valve.......

it for sure would need to be a dc pump. turning ac motors on and off will drastically shorten there life

I have seen your Surge system and looked it over a few times... Thought about such a project I could actually put the surge tanks in the Attic above the aquarium... Our ATTIC is big enough to put 3 bedrooms up there and has a stairway thou Tiny . 88 year old house..

Anyway i think a Test tank is in order....Lets see the Build thread... would be awesome to have NO HARDWARE inside the tank....

Today i am working on Rebuilding my Sump/ Aquarium room.. Its ugly dark and more ugly.. Going to re arrange the plumbing and tidy it all up ...then add a new system of smaller tanks that i have just sitting down there...
When i get my 3d bottom and back insert done for my Display i will need a place to house everyone for a few weeks...... In a smaller tank i will have to separate the tangs as they only tolerate each other in the big tank

 

[karimwassef]

Sounds like a lot of elbow grease!

Wish there were enough reef keepers in proximity to take these projects on as a barn-raising and do it in a weekend.

I might start by retrofitting my surge outlets to test the concept. Gravity fed from 36" isn't a lot of pressure but I might learn something from it.

Have you seen my surge vids? Maybe I need to make new ones now that my tank is stocked.

 

[saf1]

Still think you are over engineering or complicating it. DC / Variable pumps have been created for a reason. Might be worth while breaking out excel and seeing what sort of wave patterns you could come up with. Still might be able to do what you want by height placement and timing / control.

Based on your sig you have a large tank so it is probably built to handle surge and/or waves. I know part of the fun of the hobby is this sort of thing so will be interesting to see what you come up with.

 

[ericarenee]

Sounds like a lot of elbow grease!

Wish there were enough reef keepers in proximity to take these projects on as a barn-raising and do it in a weekend.

I might start by retrofitting my surge outlets to test the concept. Gravity fed from 36" isn't a lot of pressure but I might learn something from it.

Have you seen my surge vids? Maybe I need to make new ones now that my tank is stocked.

Yes i seen them.... Very nice....

I think the benefit of this is NO Air bubbles and it would be a steady swaying ..
Yea would be a kewl project for like minded people close together and a Garage....


I Worked most my life in Construction (Degree in construction management). But now I Do renovations on historic homes. Where i work we have
a License plumber
a framer
a trim carpenter
a hvac guy..
and so on. then there is
ME AND One of the other guys. that has done a bit of everything.. When we hit a snag that is way out there. We will all get together on the project and often in minutes or a few Hours its Solved and We move foreword...
a Great team to work with ..... I have worked off some of the worse drawing in the world..

Anyway ... i can watch you build it from here and Point out your mistakes. (MY BEST ASSET) ...... :rollface:

 

[KafudaFish]

Maybe hire this guy:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8JVVEgx62oc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Though it is silly I think the video has possibilities. This video maybe better suited to your idea though:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-m_VDE-BSgc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

... This is really not about waves. I have monster waves already.

I may have to draw it out since I'm failing at explaining how this is different from a wave.

 

[karimwassef]

I'm building two more actuated surges. I'll include the DIY of the valves from PVC.

I'm hoping to make these new actuated valves adjustable instead of just on - off. It needs a processor, but I think I can DIY that too.

 

[Bent]

Maybe hire this guy:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8JVVEgx62oc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Though it is silly I think the video has possibilities. This video maybe better suited to your idea though:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-m_VDE-BSgc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Is it weird that I put this on loop and let this dudes voice put me to sleep last night?

 

[ericarenee]

... This is really not about waves. I have monster waves already.

I may have to draw it out since I'm failing at explaining how this is different from a wave.

I get it ..... I think its kewl................... Build two ...

Erica says she wants one toooo....Girls know nothing about this kinda mechanical stuff....:thumbsup:

 

[ericarenee]

Is it weird that I put this on loop and let this dudes voice put me to sleep last night?

Is it weird that i think you are weird for even wondering rather or not you are weird for watching this weird voice while trying to weirdly fall a sleep...

 

[JamesHolt]

8' tank
1' each end divided like this

Seal the top on each side..
Come out the back with 6" pvc, connecting both ends together (1 piece)
off of one of the pvc 90's mount cylinder, through pvc 90 with cylinder shaft inside pvc.. attach a uhmw, plastic piston to shaft end,, this will be inside the pvc that goes from one side to the other..
When the cylinder moves, the piston will push water into one side while pulling from the other... one side will move a tad more due to the cylinder rod taking up space...
the dividers will direct the flow in a mostly straight line..

I could draw this up in CAD, but I am still learning it and am very slow..

You could downsize this for a smaller tank, and also use 2 rodless cylinders piggybacked to eliminate the connecting pvc..
On a rodless cylinder the piston free floats in the tube, but is magneticaly coupled to the driver,, makes it nice and compact..

do a 20 gallon long and use 2" stuff,, should be able to get a nice push in each direction...

 

[karimwassef]

If you're reading this, you're probably weird enough to know you're weird.

Erica - you sound like you're pretty good with mechanical stuff- you're a carpenter! How much more hands on can one be?

Anyways - my actuators are very simple devices. The biggest trick is knowing the right size of standard pipes and fittings that work together.