Larvatus off DD - anybody here get it?

[NarakuAulonocar]

Hey,

I might be too late but did you soak his clams in selcon or vitachem? I think feeding only clam may cause malnutrition. Just a thought and good luck.

Sorry to hear about the troubles.

 

[humaguy]

Nothing visually has changed since I received the fish...no bloating or swelling. It is breathing heavier than it was yesterday, another bad sign.

It's the only fish in the tank at the moment, so it's not being harassed. The Feces appears whispy, not sure if that's the right way to describe it, but that's how it appears, very fine.

Not really flaring or bobbing, just swimming around in a concerning fashion.

I will say that I checked the salinity and it was high, 1.030. I addes some FW to adjust it down and did the WC as I mentioned and it's now down to 1.025 or 1.026.

Went from thrilled two days ago to sick to my stomach tonight.

very sorry to hear...try getting the sg down to .021 might help with her breathing...

 

[Dmorty217]

Any updates on the Lavartus Matt

 

[caribfan]

Nothing positive. Fish is still alive, but no better. It's almost like it's been paralyzed, it swims in kind of a swirling pattern.

 

[SDguy]

Too bad... appears to be the same time frame that I kept mine.

 

[Dmorty217]

That sucks, sorry to hear that Matt. It's always deflating when something like this happens. Do you think it's a swim bladder issue or something different?

 

[caribfan]

He's officially a goner. It's always disappointing to lose a fish, but even more so when things looked so promising to start on such a difficult specimen.

At this point, I can only believe that the decline was due to unfulfilled dietary needs, even though the fish ate clams on the half shell very well. Like I mentioned before, I'm keeping a multibar angel in the same system, but in the sump and that fish is doing very well, so I don't believe it was a condition of environment.

I would like to keep this thread viable for anyone else who might purchase one of these DD specimens in the future in hopes that we can all learn something.

I would be very curious to know Kevin Kohens' opinion in regards to long term care and viability of these fish in comparison to some of the other difficult butterflies, specifically the Octofasciatus I've been keeping as well as some of the other obligate corallivores.

DFS, if you are so inclinded, insert comment below...

Also, if you do end up swinging by here, i'm looking for a couple Parachaetodon Occelatus if you know how to source those, feel free to send me a PM.

Thanks to any and all that followed along and helped along the way.

 

[paka]

I'm sorry to hear about your larvatus Matt.
I'd also be interested in Kevin's thoughts on diet and long term survival of species like larvatus which are so lovely and difficult. I hope we'll hear from him here.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[caribfan]

Thanks Karen, I was pretty disappointed. I used to have the opinion that as long as these fish were eating a decent quality food, their chances for survival should be good.

I'm starting to second guess myself on whether or not the actual dietary needs are specific to some component in the actual corals they eat.

That's why I would really like to hear from Kevin or others that have kept this fish long term. If it can be done with clams and other quality seafood, that would answer my question...

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Sorry it didn't work out as the larvatus would be such a nice addition to any tank. It sounds like the fish was captured around 60 days ago and that it ate some at DFS and in your hands. Perhaps what it was ingesting wasn't enough substance to sustain the fish??? If that is the case, perhaps a larger fish with an adult metabolism would be easier to keep.

I wonder if anyone has kept a larvatus for a while by feeding a mix that included the corals it naturally would eat in the wild. If so, that would indicate that, although a meaty diet might provide enough substance, it provides insufficient nutrition (i.e., there is something so critical in the fish's diet in the wild that it cannot live without it for 8-10 weeks). It seems hard to believe there is some dietary need that is so critical given that a couple of people kept the larvatus for more than a couple of months, but who knows.

 

[Big E]

Sorry to hear this, but not unexpected with a coralivore.

Although the most logical, we/you are making the assumption that it died due to dietary reasons. That may not have had anything to do with it.

I've had my share of more common BF's doing great and eating and the next day lights on and it's dead or a similar fate like yours............ doing fine and eating and then dead in a few days.

 

[caribfan]

Sorry it didn't work out as the larvatus would be such a nice addition to any tank. It sounds like the fish was captured around 60 days ago and that it ate some at DFS and in your hands. Perhaps what it was ingesting wasn't enough substance to sustain the fish??? If that is the case, perhaps a larger fish with an adult metabolism would be easier to keep.

I wonder if anyone has kept a larvatus for a while by feeding a mix that included the corals it naturally would eat in the wild. If so, that would indicate that, although a meaty diet might provide enough substance, it provides insufficient nutrition (i.e., there is something so critical in the fish's diet in the wild that it cannot live without it for 8-10 weeks). It seems hard to believe there is some dietary need that is so critical given that a couple of people kept the larvatus for more than a couple of months, but who knows.

^^^^

This is the exact question I'd like to have answered.

Is there some critical component of their diet that can only be met by eating live coral? Perhaps it's a digestive enzyme or a specific fatty acid. I'm not scientific enough to delve into that, but a person keeping these fish for an extended period of time, say a year or more would in my mind confirm that not to be the case.

In the example of my octofasciatus, I've been keeping it for more than a year with decent success, feeding no live coral. It primarily eats LRS foods and clams.

This is why it would be nice for KK to chime in specifically with any long term care experience he could provide.

Also, FWIW, I still think DD and Kevin's team provided me with an excellent specimen and in no way am I placing any blame on them for the death of this fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

How long was the fish with DD before you got it? Seems like I remember October being mentioned when it was for sale? Just trying to figure out how long the fish made it in captivity. Seems like this one made it about 3 months, which would lead me to believe that it isn't a dietary difficency. (Would think a fish that size, that is as active as a Lavartus would of died much sooner if something dietary was to blame) would be nice to see how long Kevin has kept one alive for.

 

[SDguy]

Sorry to hear this, but not unexpected with a coralivore.

Although the most logical, we/you are making the assumption that it died due to dietary reasons. That may not have had anything to do with it.

I've had my share of more common BF's doing great and eating and the next day lights on and it's dead or a similar fate like yours............ doing fine and eating and then dead in a few days.

I agree with Ed completely here. Also, FWIW, at least based on the last video you posted, my larvatus got MUCH skinnier before dying.

 

[caribfan]

You are correct about October.

What's truly vexing is the fact that a week prior to it's death, this fish was consuming an entire clam througout the course of a day, every day. Shell picked clean. This is what is making me start to questions whether there is some critical part of it's dietary needs not being met by the typical protein sources we feed, clam, shrimp, scallop, etc..

I would understand it dying from a lack of food if it had only fed the way it did initially on LRS foods.

 

[SDguy]

This is what is making me start to questions whether there is some critical part of it's dietary needs not being met by the typical protein sources we feed, clam, shrimp, scallop, etc..

Then even those very rare cases of them being kept for 2 years wouldn't exist.

 

[caribfan]

I agree with Ed completely here. Also, FWIW, at least based on the last video you posted, my larvatus got MUCH skinnier before dying.

Along this same thought, the Mitratus I lost a couple years ago went in the same fashion. It would still eat up until the point that it was unable to truly control it's swimming motions. It ended up having the same cyclical swirling swimming pattern that the larvatus displayed at the end.

On the day I first reported the Larvatus having the concerning swimming pattern, it still attempted to eat the clam.

So if it wasn't a dietary issue, and most likely not an environmental issue (based on the thriving multifasciatus in the sump), what else could it be?

Collection methods I suppose.

 

[caribfan]

Then even those very rare cases of them being kept for 2 years wouldn't exist.

Agreed. I suppose it could just be something else entirely like you and Ed mentioned before.

Anybody here know Mr. Kohen? It would be nice to hear from him on this, maybe we could get someone to drop him an email, I imagine he has some insight.

 

[SDguy]

So if it wasn't a dietary issue, and most likely not an environmental issue (based on the thriving multifasciatus in the sump), what else could it be?

Collection methods I suppose.

IMO/E things aren't that straight forward. I've experienced multiple times where one fish is affected by something, and not another. It could be one thing, or a combination of things. Really no way to know for sure. Example: I've got one of two pyramid butterflies that went through QT that decided to stop eating in the DT. He's slowly wasting away. Cause? Anybody's guess....

I'm not sure I've ever seen people identify poor collection methods in Red Sea fish, but I suppose it's possible.

 

[Big E]

This is a bit off track, but keeping in line with it not being dietary. I think if I was serious about getting some of the delicate fish that need priority care, I would probably invest in a good UV sterilizer.

Not saying you should have done this............... just thinking outside the box and not focusing on the food. I'm thinking there could have been a bacterial infection at work for example, and those type of things work fast without time for you to see symptoms and react.

I know copps swears by using them, and he has an extensive group of expensive, rare, and touchy fish.