Last ditch effort at Having clowns

[travis32]

As the title says, this may be the end of me having clowns...

Yesterday I lost my orange an whit eoscellaris. I did my best to give him good nutrition. I believe in the end he starved to death over the last 4 -5 months...

He would get all excited when I fed, but wouldn't actually visibly eat.

His skeleton was showing through, he had pits across his head. (Firmly believe he had HLLE). When he finally died his gills were red and looked very inflamed.

My other clown now is also developing HLLE. (Small pitted holes across the top of his head...)

He still sorta eats, but appetite is already decreasing just this week. I expect in the next 3 months this clown will also be dead.

None of my other fish that have been there almost as long as the two clowns are showing any signs of distress, lack of appetite, or signs of HLLE. I even have a tang, with no signs of ich or HLLE.. Usually, I thought, it would be the tang to first show symptoms of anything.

Nope, it's just the clowns. If this second clown dies. Which now that he has signs of the same thing, I antiicipate it will die a very slow excruciating death of starvation.

If this clown dies, it will be 3 -4 clowns in the last 4 -5 months. 1 of the 3 got sucked into a power head in QT. I don't know if it was disease or if he waas asleep and ran into it and couldn't get off. He died of a giant hickey...

1 clown died in the first week I had him. Now this clown died, which makes 3. If my current living oscellaris dies, it will be 4.

I'm done with clowns after this. After losing $60.00 in clowns, I can't keep justifying losing clowns...

The LFS replaced the one that died in the first week at no charge. But, in the end, I would like to know a couple things:

1. Are there diseases that other fish would be immune to, but oscellaris clowns are highly susceptible to?

2. If 1 is true, do the diseases burn out after all the clowns are gone, or will I never be able to have a clown again?

3. If 1 is not true, what am I doing wrong?


None of my fish show any visible signs of ich in the last 3 -4 months since the 125g was setup. The clowns, I noticed 2 little white worms on the sides of the body of the one that died. They were maybe thick as a thumbnail and maybe 1/16" of an inch protruding from the body. I noticed the second clown also had 1 little white worm sticking out of his body.

The second clown getting HLLE also has a black patch on one side by his gill.

He just took to the anemone so, I don't know if the discoloration around the gill is an infection or from the anemone stings.

 

[SkullV]

Were the clowns wild caught or tank bred? Did they look slimy at all? Wild caught clowns often come in with Brooklynella which is also called "clownfish disease". It is contagious to other fish but that doesn't mean that they will 100% get it.

P.S. they are Ocellaris not Oscellaris

 

[travis32]

Thanks on the spelling. The LFS assured me they were tank bred Ocellaris clowns. All 4 of them.

My thought, is the one that died within a week, I didn't QT. I should have now, but, it was just the one fish I said screw QTing that one.

Well, exactly 7 days later that one died and since then the next 2 clowns were getting sick 1 at a time.

Their poo looks really slimy and despite not eating much, they poo alot and it's really different looking. Where other fish are usually big round thick. The clowns poo is thin and stringy and just hangs off the fish kinda slimy like.

Could it be that the one that died in 7 days had brooklynella even though it was tank bred?

And since then it's just transferred from clown fish to clown fish? Or are tank bred fish supposed to be immune to it? And I've really gotten unlucky.

So, lastly, back to my original question. IF it is Brooklynella is the culprit, after this clown dies, does Brooklynella stay in my tank? Can other fish be carriers even though they're immune? So, essentially, I can never be rid of it? Or, without a susceptible host after a few months it will go away?

I'm kinda at a loss, because it only affects the clowns. In my 125g, I haven't lost any other fish except clowns. I saw one of the little white worms trying to attach itself to my goby. As he swam the worm just fell off despite trying to hold on. So, it's like the clowns for some reason are susceptible to them, but no one else is.

But, this clown has different more visible symptoms now. He has a very solid black patch by his side fin. Kinda right behind / above it a little. Near one gill.

The other side doesn't have that black patch. So, it definately looks out of place.

 

[psusocr]

What are the stats of your tank? how big? how many fish? nitrates? nitrites? ph? salinity? what are the tankmates etc?

i notice larger fish could make it through alot worse water conditions in people's tank than tiny clowns can...

 

[bues0022]

Brook/diseases can easily be spread at the LFS. Even if the breeder had good quality fish, the LFS can't say the same from their other suppliers and introduced disease into an otherwise healthy fish. The thinning of your clowns makes me think internal parasites. Pictures and specs would help greatly.

 

[patsfan1130]

I HIGHLY recommend QT. This not only greatly reduces fish loss but also helps immensely when trying to diagnose a problem. What I mean is a fish in QT for 6 weeks under your care that is eating and has no signs of sickness is probably not sick or carrying a parasite. A fish that looks healthy when you bring him home from the LFS is...well...you get my point.

 

[travis32]

This is the clown that just died, pic was taken a couple weeks ago:
<a href="http://s569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/?action=view&current=IMG00171-20110213-1540.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/IMG00171-20110213-1540.jpg" border="0" alt="mobile uploads"></a>

More close ups from a couple weeks ago:
<a href="http://s569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/?action=view&current=SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011497.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011497.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Really good pic of the pits in the head:
<a href="http://s569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/?action=view&current=SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011499.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011499.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

body shot of the clown that died:
<a href="http://s569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/?action=view&current=SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011498.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss134/SchnauzerWauzer/Saltwater%20Aquarium/SDPicturesoffofVideoCamera2009-2011498.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


PH: 8.17 to 8.33 (depending on day or night.)
alk: 3.0-3.5 Meq/l
ca: 440 -480
Mg: 1700
Am: 0

125g tank, with 30g sump, corner overflows, with approx 90-100lbs of rock.

Has had phosphates as high as .5 - 2. Different issue I'm battling.

Nitrates, should be close to zero, the tank has only been operational for 4 months.

I had a 55g running for 10 months before the 125g. I detect nitrates once when I was cycling the tank, and they disappeared the next day, and haven't showed up since.


I'm running a 5" -6" DSB in one half of the sump and have 3-4" sand bed in the DT.

My fish list is in my signature. I have 5 fish now that the clown died. None of them have shown the signs yet, that the 3 clowns have shown.

 

[psusocr]

So did you ever test for nitrates? 4 months with those fsh in that size your nitrates could be zero or through the roof, you never know until you test. Either way it may not be the problem afterall

 

[travis32]

I 'll retest them. I'm pretty confident they aren't through the roof. My 55g with about the same amount of fish and same size of fish other than the tang, had zero nitrates and I tested monthly on the 55g. I never had issues with them. That or my test kits are bad.

Well, after reading the brooklynella description. He had almost every symptom. The problem is that every symptom of brooklynella is about the same as every symptom of HLLE..

HLLE has unknown causes. Brooklynella is a protazoan parasite that attacks the fish. And therefore has a flat out cause. Although treatment looks fairly complex.

15 min freshwater bath? I never heard of that, heard of 5 min, didn't know a marine fish could survive for 15 mins.

then a formaline bath. Then, dosing "revive" supposedly. Purchasing and running a UV sterilizer, and at some point possibly vaccuming out all the detritious / sand...

Not to mention it seems to me the treatment would kill the fish. Granted so will the disease.


http://www.fishvet.com/Brooklynella.htm

I'll go without clowns, if that's the requirement for treatment. A lot cheaper.

 

[bues0022]

Brook kills very fast. If you've had a fish for 3 weeks without any new additions (ability for the parasite to get into your tank) than I don't think it would be brook. Put it this way, Brook would kill your fish far before you would notice any wasting away of musculature like you've seen.

 

[jdyer88]

Do you have a grounding probe on your tank? HLLE can be linked to stray current in the tank. Not all livestock would necessarily show signs of it either.

 

[travis32]

That's something I haven't tried yet, is a grounding probe.

I was also confused, as to why the second clown didn't show any symptoms, until the first clown died.

That's the way it was before with the other clown too.

clown A, inserted into tank. Clown B perfectly healthy.

Clown A dies 7 days later.

Clown B starts showing Pits in his head within a day of the other clown dieing.

6 weeks later, Clown C inserted into tank. Clown B still has the pits, insertion of clown C, motivates Clown B to start eating.

1 month later, Clown B dies. Less than 12 hours later, Clown C shows symptoms of Clown B.

I got the body out pretty fast, so I don't think it was the stress of the decay. by fast, I mean, I saw his gill twitch then saw him go stiff as a board. So, it was within minutes of it dieing I believe.

The next morning the other clown had the symptoms. It's kinda like pingpong, except where the player with possession of the ping pong dies, then passes the radioactive ball to the next fish.

 

[duncaholic]

Definatley not brook IMO as I have had three clowns die from brook and it kills within days - not months. Tank bred fish are generally hardier than WC, but the downside is that they haven't been exposed to pathogens and therefore haven't had the opportunity to build up their immune system to handle other fish bourne illness'. On a side note, I had an awesome marine betta for a while, until I put a pair of what I know to be healthy clowns in with it. Maybe just coincidence, but the clowns died...slowly, then the betta kicked a few weeks later. Maybe these two species have some sort of adverse pathogenic interaction???

My other thought is that if you bought all the same species of tank bred occ's from the same LFS, it is likely that they all came from the same breeding pair and possibly from the same clutch. This might explain to a large degree why they were all so suceptible to whatever illness they had/have. I wouldn't give up on clowns. They are awesome fish, but I would buy a pair from a different LFS and get larger fish. All the clowns I've had die have been less than 1.5" long. More mature clowns just seem to fair better. Makes sense I guess. Also QT is important....very important. Six weeks seems like a long time to wait, but if you set up your QT to look nice (with a hood and lights and even some of that store bought fake tank gravel) then you can enjoy them during their time in QT. Just don't re-use the fake gravel when you go to set up for your next fish. It's cheap enough to cover the bottom of a 10g.

 

[travis32]

yup, I've got a 30 gallon QT that was used for freshwater. I paid $60.00 for the setup off craigslist.

Pretty good deal in my opinion.

I also noticed this clown is sucking on the anemone tentacles. Do they do this to try to purge whatever is irritating them or is it just a comfort thing? I'm feeding strong vitamin enriched foods now (all frozen, and adding elos vitamin drops to the food.) I'm hoping if it's a virus or disease of some type that this will boost it's immune system.

And yes, these clowns are young. I talked to a fellow local reefer, and he had the same problem with clowns. Couldn't keep them alive for anything, when all other fish faired well. And no, he doesn't have a marine betta. He said, he went through multiple pair until he's got the ones he's got now that are doing very well.

 

[jmchzn123]

OK I am a dumb *** I'm sure you thought of this but 10 yrs ago I learned to stay out of LFS all together. Never had any luck. 1 or 2 out of 50 in the northeast actually had healthy practices. So I have been buying all my fish online at live Aquaria. Never had any deaths once in the DT. Never had any maladies at all. The down side is you get what they send. I bought one pair of Clowns about 5 yrs ago....still going strong....Getting a little agressive in their old age but basically stick to their NEM and don't stray too far so the rest of the fish are ok. ...just saying

 

[travis32]

I'm not going to disagree with you, I had a horrible experience with another online vendor. The fish was o.k. and still have one of the 3 fish to this day. I tried two marine bettas together, had to sell one off or they would have killed each other. And a signal goby was an expensive meal for the bettas.

The corals I got, I lost 2 of the 3 corals in the first week. So, I didn't have good experiences with online purchasing. For clowns though, I may have to go for this. All the other fish I've gotten from this LFS have been great. The manager runs a 180g tank at his house and works very hard to care for the fish and corals he sells. In some ways, I think he runs it more as a hobby at the store than a store.

I think, given the practices of any "fish store", there's good risk of transferring parasites from one tank to another. Anyways, I don't want to get into a debate on stores. I agree, online vendors have very strong reputations.

So, the pits on this clown's head, doesn't look like brooklynella, plus the fact it wasted away over a couple months are both strong indicators that it's not brooklynella. So, would others agree the pitting look to be some form of HLLE or some other parasite clowns are weak to?

 

[travis32]

Ankor worms: aka Flukes

Ankor worms: aka Flukes

a quick update. I was reading up on parasites and found some interesting info on flukes. I've been wondering if my clowns have flukes. As ankor worms can cause similar symptoms to HLLE and possibly be visible on the outside of the fish.

I just read that most flukes need fish to fish contact to spread..... When my one clown died, I had one clown in the tank. I went out and replaced it with another clown, which they immediately bonded.. Then the next clown died.

I always had in the back of my mind that it's the only fish in the tank that make contact and they coincidently are the ones dieing.

I may have to move my clown to QT and treat for flukes. Would that be too stressful on the fish though? he's hosting an anemone now.. kinda hate to take him from his home.

And the clown still sucks on anemone tentacles. is Anemone toxin poisonous to flukes? He does look a little better after having sucked on the tentacle for several days now. (not solid, but he sucks on it for up to an hour at a time...)

Any thoughts please?

 

[travis32]

No thoughts?