LED Lighting. The next big thing?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9055941#post9055941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xbambamx
But the LEDS watts are only like 15? So how can a 15 watt LED compare to a 400 X 2 MH?
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You use a whole bunch of them!! In addition you have to look at the lumens per watt or actuall efficiency of the light source. LEDs are currently being produced that have a better lumens per watt ratio than MH. In other words that use more of the energy going in to them to produce actual light.
 
Well, lumens per watt. For example, normal incandescent lights have a horrible lumens per watt ratio, most of energy (97+%) goes toward producing heat and not light, where as compact flourescent lighting has a far better lumens per watt rating. 500W of incandescent light is nowehere near as illuminating as 500W of PC lights.

You have to look at the total wattage and the efficiency of the light.
 
I have a 36" Solaris and I think it is the real deal! Sorry can't say about the coral growth as I don't have any yet, just SW and sand. Still building the setup. My tank is 24x24x36 and yes the shimmer effect is there.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9055354#post9055354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jag1979


what rate of return did you use in calculating the loss due to the time value of money?

also how much do the LED lights cost to replace in 5 years or so (assuming you would not wait 10 years for the light output to drop by 30%)
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This is not a relevant question due to the fact that the future value of the unit itself is going to become significantly cheaper. Such as plasma TVs, the unit I have now was 10G only 18 months ago, today that unit is $2000 and has more features and better resolution.

Same applies here, you can not base ROI in anything but current figures. These systems will not come down in cost nearly so fast as we might like because market for these systems is rather limited. However, like every other new technology, it will get cheaper as the cost of the research is adsorbed by increasing sales and thus bringing down the cost per unit in terms of research costs. The cost of running your lights is not going to go down, it will continue to rise with the price of electricity.

In 5 years, the LED clusters may only cost $10 to replace, this would be the same cost factor as LCD monitors have gone through in the last 3-4 years, a $1000 monitor is now $150

Perhaps I should do a SWOT analysis next for them? :lol:
 
"This is not a relevant question due to the fact that the future value of the unit itself is going to become significantly cheaper"

if you buy a unit for 3k right now it is pretty relevant...not sure I understand what you are talking about. If the future value of the unit itself is going to become significanly cheaper (which I agree it will) then that is another reason that you will not save money by buying one of these. The fact is that you are spending 3k right now for the LED light's or less than 1000 for a mh and whatever combo. If you want to run a cost analysis then you would have to factor in the time value of money or it is useless.
 
I would like to pull the trigger on one of these myself. I think if the technology does improve, and it probably will, the LED lighting units will become cheaper in the future. But it will be a few years for this to happen. And, if that is the case I will simply stockpile my energy savings during this future LED development phase and upgrade my LED unit with one of th newer improved models in a few years. Just as I am thinking of doing now.

In all seriousness, they look like the real deal to me too.
 
I agree about them looking like the real deal.

Look at the explosion T-5's took once they came to the aquarium trade market. I assume that once the LED price point reach 2K that most all of us will be seriously considering it. 5 years ago a nice MH set up was 2K.

I think it's similar to people who pay more for a hybrid engine. It costs more up front, but you save more in the long run on fuel costs....Personally, i think the cost up front right now doesn't outweigh the long term cost of fuel. However, those people buying hybrid's are pioneering the way of the future and obsorbing the R&D costs for the rest of us.
 
I agree, it is up to those people who can afford the cutting edge technology and are willing to experiment to buy the fixtures and slowly bring the cost down for the rest of us. It is the same with any technology. I can remember when a 15 inch flat screen LCD monitor would cost you 2K and looked terrible. Now you can get really good models at Wal-Mart for $150.00.

The main thing I am looking forward to with LED ligths is far less heat! I think that combined with the super-long life of LED lights is going to make LED lights extremely attractive in the near future (3-5 years).
 
LEDs will absolutely, without a doubt, entirely replace metal halides someday. In fact, they'll replace all lighting systems. The only question is how long it will take.
 
Your water tempature is still rising at the surface, thus causing more evaporation...so even if you don't NEED a chiller, you should be able to find a benefit from LED thru less H20 evaporation into your home...which causes your AC to run more and your home to get mold infestation...
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As a liquid evaporates the surface of the water that stays behind cools down. Evaporative cooling occurs because the hottest molecules, those with the greatest kinetic energy are most likely to leave as a gas. Evapoative cooling is our friend as reefkeepers and is a natural way to cool down our tanks IMO.

Evaporative Cooling = Good :)
 
I agree that evaporation is good, but it is the amount of evaporation that will decrease witht he reduced heat of the LED lights. During the summer, it seems like my RO unit is replensishing fresh water all of the time (5-6G/day), and that is combined with the chiller operating. The evaporation will still occur, but @ a lower rate with T5's and most definitely LED's.

The hardest thing for me when it comes to buying one of these new units is that I cannot go see one in person. I can only read their literature and hear testimpny from those who have seen one on. "Seeing is Believing". Just last night I was @ the LFS and saw an 8-lamp T5 fixture over one of the store's display tanks and I was impressed. It did not look any dimmer than my twin 250W MH w/(2) T5 actinics. I was reading the thread about the ATI T5 fixture and was ready to make the switch to T5's, when someone had to go and post this thread! Now I am really confused. For me personally I have to consider my electrical consumption as much as I wish I could just set up an array of MH's with a big fat chiller. That is not in the cards for me where I live. (Northern California). Our KWH go from .11/kwh @ baseline use to .37/kwh when you go over baseline and it does not take long to go over baseline with the everyday normal functions of a house.

LED's have a lot to offer now and most definitely in the future, but I also want to know how much the arrays cost to replace? I read that when one LED goes out on an array, the whole circuit cuts out. So you will probably have to buy the LED's in packs of 25 or something just to have spares around. I emailed PFO and asked them how much replacements are and have not heard back yet. One other issue I was curious about was the fact that when the unit overheats, it shuts down automatically and the controller informs you ve the overheating problem. Does this mean that this fixture installed in a closed "fish room" might cut out? And if so, am I going to have to place additional fans on the fixture to keep it cool? Will that negate the energy savings? I need more info.

Looks good even with all of these Q's.
 
Hey D.Blaine "Evaporative Cooling = Good" I can't agree more, but if your tank is NOT heating excessively...then Evaporative Cooling=NOT Needed. The negative effects of Evaporative Cooling=Moisture in the Air (A/C has to remove that) and Less Top-Off Refilling....Make Sense?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9052903#post9052903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starmanres
Let's do the economics...

LED System 48" - $2,500

Expected Lamp Life - 10 years

Per month cost - $20.83 + Electricity

---------------------------------------------------------------------

MH/VHO/T-5 Cost - ~$700 (10 year comparison $5.83 per month)

Expected Lamp Life - 1 Year

Additional Cost of $250 per year in Bulb Replacement (10 year comparison $20.83 per month)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

40% Electricity Savings LED over MH/VHO/T-5

Current Wattage Example:
2- 250w MH+2- 110w VHO's+2- 55w T-5's = 830w Per Hour or ~6,000 watts per day

6,000 watts x 365 days = 2,190,000 watts per year or 2,190 Killowatt Hours

2,190 Killowatts x .10 per KWH = $219.00 per year in Lighting Costs / 40% savings - $87.60 per year savings in electricity.

$87.60 x 10 years (~life of LED bulbs) = $876.00

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

Over a 10 year period, MH/VHO/T-5 lights will cost [Fixture, bulbs, Electricity] $5,389.20 or $44.91 per month.

Over a 10 year period LED lights will cost [Fixture, Bulbs, Electricity] $3,375.60 or $28.13 per month.

Purchasing an LED fixture over a MH/VHO/T-5 one will be a cost savings of $2,013.60 over 10 years or $16.78 per month.

Plus no ordering bulbs from LFS or online, dramatically less heat for your chiller to offset, less radiation to bleach corals, less noise from canopy fans... - lighting timers, moonlights and dimmers are built into the unit...

Unless I am in error somewhere in my math, I'm thinkin' this LED option has some benefits to be considered...

My .02

Robert
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You're completely ignoring the FACT that current LED's are LESS efficient than MH and T5 bulbs, not more. The Solaris LEDs put out about 40 lumens per watt, the other sources between 70-120.


LEDs will be great in the future, when they start using the newer, more efficient ones that are up at 150 lumens per watt, but the ones now aren't even close.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9056005#post9056005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dwculp
You use a whole bunch of them!! In addition you have to look at the lumens per watt or actuall efficiency of the light source. LEDs are currently being produced that have a better lumens per watt ratio than MH. In other words that use more of the energy going in to them to produce actual light.
Click to expand...

Not the ones that the Solaris is using. THeyre much lower than MH/T5.
 
Re: LED Lighting. The next big thing?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9051874#post9051874 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mikeshook
It looks like LED lighting is pushing the envelope of affordability. PFO has brought a product to market, and the reviews seem very positive with the biggest advantages being very low heat emmission and low long-term costs (electrical and bulb replacements. Does anyone have any real experience with a LED lighting arrangement on their reef?
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Sure do. I have LED moonlighting.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9062122#post9062122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
You're completely ignoring the FACT that current LED's are LESS efficient than MH and T5 bulbs, not more. The Solaris LEDs put out about 40 lumens per watt, the other sources between 70-120.


LEDs will be great in the future, when they start using the newer, more efficient ones that are up at 150 lumens per watt, but the ones now aren't even close.
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Less efficient where?!?

Cost per fixture? Nope. When you take bulb replacement into consideration, it's cheaper.

Cost to run? Nope. Not even close.

Benefit to Aninals? Nope.

From the responses on this thread, PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the key - not Lumens. As pointed out, you could line up multiple MH bulbs and increase the lumens off the scale without increasing the PAR.

Heat generation? No way.

Screw with factor? No again. You set it up and let it run for at least 60 months.

Replacement of bulbs? Undetermined. No one has been able to determine what the cost is here but the LED are about $4 each and each 12" section has 25 so about $100 per section or about what I pay for a 250w MH bulb. If no other equipment changes are needed then it is more efficent there as well.

From looking at the results, a 12" section of LED array is more efficient than a 250w MH in just about every area (life of bulb, electricity costs, PAR, etc.).

What other measurements would tip the scale in favor of MH, VHO, T-5's? Shimmer on the water?? I'm not sure that LED's wouldn't provide that as well.

Robert
 
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