LED Lighting. The next big thing?

[Pez Vela]

Craig, good point. I think it also depends on how many hours a day you set up the controller to run them. In one of my previous posts, I had anticipated running them for 10 hours a day which actually spread out the time frame to 13.7 years of life and I rounded the figure down to 10 years for the very reason you mentioned. I also think that lamp manufacturers can only approximate how many hours the lamps will work outside of a controlled test environment. It might be that they actually only last 46,000 hours @ my home and 48,000 somewhere else. No one really knows because the fixture is so new and replacement is so far off. If this is the first year the fixture was released, it will be a long time before we know how much light loss occurs relative to aquarium use. Have they been testing these new LED's for the past ten years?

By the way, how much light loss does a MH lose over the course of a year? I have heard that some people have been changing out their lamps after 8 months of use.

mike

 

[Racso]

I saw somewhere that someone replaced their 250w MH every 200 to 250 days. He was talking about how he got into the hobby by buying everything anyone reccommended to him, including a PAR meter. He said he found that after about 200 days the MH would noticably drop. He finished with saything that they did not drop outside of acceptable PAR until about 250 to 300 days. I would like to find this article because he is now overwhelmingly smart in the reef hobby (he took college biology type classes just so he could keep a great tank).

Edit: forgot to mention, he wrote the article to discuss what he learned from being a beginner to what he is now. He hit some topics like supplements, equipment, testing, and useful/useless things. One point of his I REALLY like was test kit quality. Example, you don't need a super high quality Ammonia test kit. Any ammonia = bad. Any test kit will give you an idea of how high it is, but there are no useful situations where the true ammount of ammonia will ever be needed. And if it is too low (but not zero) to read on lower end test kits, it too low to be harmful.

 

[newman330]

I know next to nothing about lighting, but I will relate an experience I had this past weekend.

I am in Singapore and was out looking for components to diy T5 lighting. I was inside something of an electronic component heaven. Cool gadgets and components everywhere. Saw one shop with some pretty bright LED's on display. I popped in and asked him what is the highest watt rating available for LED's. He said 20W (just arrived in December) and offered to show me. That was one BRIGHT light. Could barely look at it. He was selling these LEDs for $40. When I said that they were too expensive for me, he said wait until about March and there should be a 30W LED available and the price should drop significantly on the 20W...maybe 50%???

Like I said, I know almost nothing about lighting. If what I just related is unimpressive....sorry. I just thought it was significant that 50% more wattage is coming quickly and prices will be dropping (according to this guy)

 

[Biggie]

In 10 years these will be better and cheaper so they are still a $ savings in the long run. What they charge for a replacement now is based on todays prices. It maybe significantly less to replace your exisitng LED's in the future.
Im not sure how anyone can debate that this isnt a cost savings over the long run when you factor in all the related issues.
Dollar for dollar your intial outlay is slightly higher but you save energy and heat isnt an issue anymore.
One could argue that on a large tank you need so many lights you have to do a power upgrade just to run it. Outlets and breakers and complicated wiring. This thing might be self sufficent on a simple 30 amp breaker verse a costly power upgrade and for the laymen hiring an electrician to do the work.

I also, find the simple hypocritical fact that if your a reefer you might give some concern to the enviroment. Most dont but I do and I think its my responsibility to do whatever I can to reduce my electrical usage. Therfore this makes yet that much more sense.
I havent quitefigured out the argument on the Par output yet but my analogy is a simple one.
If you can get a throughbred to run on a Nags food then the nags food it will get. I havent seen anyone out of 5 threads on the LED lights who has said there tanks look any worse for wear from using LED's verse MH. Almost all said they look better. Thats SPS or LPS and tanks of all sizes and depths.
Therefore I must conclude these are as the manufacturer states they are, Better, cheaper to run and cooler.
Then again, they said the Vortec PH's were the latest greatest at the high dollar and they have been nothing but trouble for the inital purchasers. I tread lightly around new technology. Using the past as a guide.
I bet this same argumkent came about when they inroduced Flourescents as home lighting or they came out with the microwave oven.
I just hope they get some competiion and the prices come down so we have more than one choice and some competion will create a more reliable , user friendly product which will eventually fine tune this thing to perfection for all of us.

 

[reverendmaynard]

Good point on the environmental impact of the energy savings. Along that same vein, does anyone know about the relative impact of manufacturing and disposal of the LEDs vs existing technologies.

Another good point about how the newest tech. is more expensive and less reliable than older tech, even though it's technically "better" when it works as it's supposed to. Much like plasma screen TVs, thhe first "guinea pigs" paid outrageous prices for less than reliable products. Every day, they get cheaper and yet better at the same time.

 

[Amphibious]

I can't believe no one has linked back to another thread on RC concerning LED and coral growth. Here's a couple of those links to pages I posted pictures.

Page 10

Page 20

And here are updated pictures of those corals.

The ORA Tri-color as of today.

The Bali Tricolor as of today.

A purple Montepora I got as a fingernail sized frag in May.

A branching Hammer that came in with two heads now has seven.

A close-up of the Hammer.

Any questions?

Dick

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9062397#post9062397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pez Vela
here is the lumens per watt table from the solaris web site.... Looks like they produce more than all lighting except HID.....

http://www.solarisled.com/FAQTechnical/LEDvsMHEfficiency/tabid/61/Default.aspx

That chart is marketing crap.


They're saying you only get 40% of the light that MH produces. If you've got decent reflectors, you get 90%+.So you get 90+ lumesn per watt. T5's produce 120+ lumens per watt. LEDs? 40.


These LEDS produce more heat, and less light per watt than any of the other ligthing solutions. They cost more, and are less efficient. YES, LEDS are the future, but these aren't even close. When they get the 100 lumen/watt ones on these fixtures, great. But for right now, if you're arguing 40 lumen/watt LEDs are more efficient than 100 lumen/watt bulbs, you're doing nothing but bold faced lying.

Also, that 10 year time frame is based on 30% degradation. If I waited till I'd lost 30% of my MH intensity, it would be 3-4 years, so realistically, for the <10% loss we replace at, you're looking 2-3 years, which isnt all that much more impressive than the year you get from a MH bulb.

Their whole campaign is based on FUD.

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9133943#post9133943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
That chart is marketing crap.


They're saying you only get 40% of the light that MH produces. If you've got decent reflectors, you get 90%+

Their whole campaign is based on FUD.

Marketing yes, crap no....

lm/w is "Lumens per watt" and this is what the chart is based on

From what I have found, it is accurate (hard to find such data charts)

 

[RichConley]

THe chart says MH makes 100, and their LEDs make 40. THats true.

What it says that is absolute crap, is that MH reflectors lose 60% of the light. That may be true if your idea of a reflector is tinfoil glued to your hood, but if your using lumenarcs/reef optics/PFO reflectors, you're getting 90%+ of your light, not 40%.

 

[Randall_James]

They are saying that a HID rated at 100W delivers the same amount of light as a 50W LED and that appears to be accurate.

However the new LEDs that have been certified by National institute of standards are actually at 132 Lumens per watt and so that does make the chart rather dated now.

 

[RichConley]

"They are saying that a HID rated at 100W delivers the same amount of light as a 50W LED and that appears to be accurate. "

NO RANDAL, NO THEY ARE NOT.

They are saying the MH makes 100 lm/w. The LED makes 50 lm/w. What they are saying is that MH reflectors are so innefficient that you only get 40 lm/watt to the tank, whereas LEds are more efficient at reflecting, so you still get 40lm/w.

Thats bull.


"They are saying that a HID rated at 100W delivers the same amount of light as a 50W LED and that appears to be accurate."

How is 100 lm/w half as efficient as 50lm/w? Maybe my math is off here?

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9134066#post9134066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
However the new LEDs that have been certified by National institute of standards are actually at 132 Lumens per watt and so that does make the chart rather dated now.

And when they start using those, I'll buy an LED fixture. Right now theyre not, so they've got nothing to do with the comparison.

 

[Randall_James]

I looked high and low for a 90% efficient reflector but the best I found was for T5 fixtures at 60%. (also noted as one of the most responsive to good reflector design)

Who makes a 90% unit for HID? As you are basing your argument on this number...

I realize you have some kind of dislike for this technology but when I see reviews such as those done by AA (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2) and it shows a PUR rating of difference of some 15-20% for LED vs HID as well as 0 heat gain at the water, I think Hmmm something going here that is good.

The data you claim they are making up is in fact substantiated by a number of sites I have found that are not related to them.

Not sure why you are so adamant that they are "Lying" to everyone...

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9134711#post9134711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
I I realize you have some kind of dislike for this technology but when I see reviews such as those done by AA (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2) and it shows a PUR rating of difference of some 15-20% for LED vs HID as well as 0 heat gain at the water, I think Hmmm something going here that is good.

You mean that same review that pitted a 20K bulb with an extra glass shield in a poor reflector against a LED fixture? And then truncated off a large part of the MH's light distribution because the LED didnt cover as much area? And then STILL couldnt produce as much?


THats like saying your bike is fast because you can beat a honda civic with no wheels.

 

[Pez Vela]

Rich,

You are probably right about the marketing table, but who would not post positive data about their product on their own web site? The big difference with LED's (proven) is that they direct all of their light producing capacity straight down and there is really no need for reflectors whereas other types of lights have a more displayed cone of light. The higher your lamp is off the water, the more light/lumens you are losing only to illuminate the interior of your canopy, or room where your aquarium is kept. So, even though some types of lights MAY have more lumens per watt, a percentage of the light is not directed into the aquarium thereby wasting output. T5's have come a long way with their reflectors and direct most of the light into the aquarium but I think still have some degree of wasted light output. I am not knocking T5's or MH because I use both of them now.

It is nice to have a "Devil's Advocate" amongst us because with your questioning, it is saving me $3000 until I am satisfied with the new product. Maybe by the time everyone agrees regarding LED lighting, the technology will have been perfected and we can all go out and buy them!

mike

 

[RichConley]

Pez Vela, I understand that. Its just, theyre claiming "similar light output to a 250w MH"

When what is should say is "more than 10% less PAR than a XM20K light bulb with an extra acrylic shield in a crappy reflector"

The ppfd of an XM20K is 61, IIRC. If you put a shield over it, you're looking at somewhere around 48 PPFD. If you than take the 89.4% number they supply in that article, you're looking at 42 PPFD.

Whats an 250w XM10k produce? 140 PPFD? Yeah, I'm not impressed.


Whehn they get those 130lm/w LEDs, I'll be on these things like white on rice... but at current, theyre no more efficient than halides, and are significantly more expensive.

 

[robertifly]

I'm a lot newer to this reef hobby that most of you but in the last year since I been building up my system (90 gal 36"x24"x24") I've learned one thing for sure you'll probably all agreed with and that is to put it roughly "IT AIN'T CHEAP". Certainly, there may be some ways to minimize costs through some clever DIY methods, however by the time you've added all the controllers, chillers,filters,reactors,etc. it is a very costly endeavor, you just have to determine where you will spend your hard earned dollars. I was about to DIY a lighting system when I purchased a 36" SOLARIS for least than$1800.00 and I am quite pleased with the light it provides, the various different operation modes (Manual, Auto Timer, Auto Solar System) and aesthetics it is an impressive unit. Not to mention the 2yr. warranty. I guess you can say I am well pleased with this part of my reef tank investment, something I can't say about all of the products I have bought to use in this evolving hobby.

 

[bobbyreefer]

RetroFit LED lighting

RetroFit LED lighting

These guys offer a retrofit-type LED system. Has anyone tried these yet? Looks like they sell LED panels individually so I think am at least going to get one to try.

I guess the company is Clearly LEDs I don't know if they are affilated with any other lighting company but their web address is www.clearlyleds.com

Since you can by them by the panel we can all afford to at least buy one to see what we think about the technology.

BobbyReef

 

[bobbyreefer]

After Diving more into the website www.clearlyleds.com I have learned that Clearly LEDs uses a different LED technology then Solaris. I think Solaris uses high wattage LEDS that can produce some heat. Looks like these LEDs at Clearly LEDs don't produce much heat.

Bobby Reef