LED lights question

shiromeda

New member
I am curious to know if anyone has tried LED lights on their tank yet? I was just visiting Exotic Aquarium yesterday and they are showing off a new LED display and claim it cuts power consumption drastically and save lots of money on electricity bill. Has anyone tried or currently have LED lights on their main display tank? If you do, can you give pros and cons please?

thank you
 
I've seen these at exotic also..... I also talked to a guy that claimed he was manufacturing these from canada, I don't really know who's making them or where it's really coming from but it seems like it's working over their little 55g tank in the back.

For bigger tanks....... it's kinda hard to justify putting up $800 to get these (8 x36" bulbs) over my metal halides. I think i'd rather go with something that is proven to work, and I have to pay more monthly than going with something that I don't know will work/ not proven to work yet + paying $800 for it up front and paying less monthly for electricity.
 
There is a lady that goes to the meetings....I think her name is Beverly...... that manufactures and sells them. Her and I were just talking about them at the last meeting. She runs them on her tank.
Come to the next meeting. I'm sure she'll be there and can give you all the info you want.
 
You should check out their 55g up front, they stock alot of LE sps under the LED light and they have extensive growth and vibrant color. It is pretty impressive how those lights work.



Jack
 
The Solaris solution for my 240 appears to be $4000. I posted in the RC DIY forum because I'm really wondering what it would take to build a MH replacement. Obviously the development work to start from scratch would be more than I'm interested in, but maybe someone with DIY interest has been successful and is willing to share their solution.
 
Thanks for the heads up about the lady who manufactures the lights, I am just trying to figure out if it is worth investing to save on electricity but also being good to my tank. I was just hoping to find someone how is actually using it on their system currently to give an accurate account of what exotic claims and does show off on their 55 gal tank which is full of corals and apparently growing a lot. Plus the fact that supposedly you do not have to replace these lights ever, which could be a significant savings. thanks for the input.
 
If the LED fixture are made with the low current LEDs, eg. 3mm, 5mm, even 10mm, you can basically forget about it. Don't even waste your money buying them, even if they are cheap. They just don't put out enough lumens to begin with, even if you spaced them densely.

Showing someone a tank full of corals "not dying" under low power LEDs simply proves nothing. I have seen people growing all kinds of acros under CF lights, with great color and growth also. Does it mean everybody can grow acros under CF? Of course not, you have to be experienced and a bit of lucky to get that kind of success. If you don't have those, it's better just to follow the bandwagon.

High power LEDs like the ones Solaris is using might have a future, especially couple new model of high powered LED just got on the market. These newest model can put out 600+ lm @ 700mA from only one single LED. Just to give you a comparison, a regular high brightness 5mm LED that similar to Exotic is using in their fixture only averagely puts out 1.2 lm @ 20mA.

Buying Solaris right now is a bit waste of money also, because the technology changes everyday. Newer and cheaper high power LED keep coming out. It's almost like buying a computer, if you pay $2k for your computer today, it might only cost $500 half a year later. That is also the reason why Solaris discontinued their older fixture and they are coming out with new ones with newer LEDs. I feel bad for the people who shelled out $4k for theirs just last year, becuase those doesn't worth anything anymore.

Another option if you want to save a bit of electricity is DIY. Average cost of each high powered LEDs are around $5, cheaper if buy in bulk, these are around 210 lm @ 1A and about $20 for the newest high powered ones I mentioned earlier. You can space them out like you see on the Solaris units. i.e. around 25 LEDs for lighting approx 1'x1' area. So for a 3' tank you need approx 75+ LEDs, that is around $375 in LEDs. Plus LED drivers, heatsink, fans, etc., you will be looking around $500 at least. Also each of these LEDs are approx 4W each, so for 75+ LEDs, that's equal to 300W already, not too far away from MH + T5 actinic.

To sum up, it's not only about the light you are using, that just contributes a little part of the whole equation. Spend some more money and time on better skimmer and maintanence will probably get you better result. LEDs are the future no doubt, but it's still a bit expensive right now, just wait 3-5 years, it will change. I have nothing against LEDs, actually I am building one myself with PIC controlled right now. Should be finished soon, I will give more data when it done, so stay tuned :)
 
I think that LEDs will eventually replace our current light setups.
Currently, they are not bad, just expensive. As the technology advances, they will be better and cheaper.
Just like with cell phones. I didnt buy one of those suitcases back then. I waited until they were better and cheaper.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13282608#post13282608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RonMidtownStomp
I'm very interested.. What is the brand and model of the 600 lm LED?

Seoul Semiconductor Z-Power LED, P7 Series
Pure white: 900 lm Max @ 2.8A, 130 degree viewing angle, 6300K color temp

Cree XLamp MC-E LED
Cool white: 630 lm Max @ 700mA, 110 degree viewing angle, 5000-10000k color temp

These are the ones I know, I might missed some out. I am sure Luxeon(Philips) probably going to come up with something new pretty soon which are similar in lumens to compete with those companies.

As I said before, these ultra high powered ones are not cheap, and be sure to have a really nice heatsink attach to it, otherwise you will shorten the life of the LEDs.
 
Do the 6-10k's work well when combined with something like VHO Actinics? Do you know what Solaris is doing to meet the whole light spectrum requirements? Is anyone doing hybrid solutions?

Have you looked at power supply efficiency? Most power supplies are pretty inefficient (30-70%)?

Relatively small heat sinks and thermal grease seem like they should be affordable.

Ron
 
I've been using the green LED from this link at work for a high-power, low-cost light source: http://theledlight.com/starswith_optics.html
The white one looks like it is 4.5-10k, with 45 lumens average. I haven't seen the white one, but the green LED is quite powerful. It could be an option at ~$9 each. I'd check the rest of the website too, as I chose mine with extra optics for focusing. There could be a cheaper option that would work better for tank lighting.
 
Beverly did show off our new light at a meeting in July. We are manufacturing the lights right here in Carmichael. At present we have 2 models of a hanging pendant 80 Watt luminaire using Philips K2 LEDs, standard K2s for the ZeoLED ZP80/BL (15K +) and the newest Philips K2 TFFC white LEDs in the ZeoLED ZP80/SUN (about 8K). I wanted to respond to some of the technical issues raised here. High power LEDs such as the K2s are capable of very high light output and are not at all similar to the small LEDs used previously.

Specific comments:

Seoul Semiconductor Z-Power LED, P7 Series
Pure white: 900 lm Max @ 2.8A, 130 degree viewing angle, 6300K color temp

Cree XLamp MC-E LED
Cool white: 630 lm Max @ 700mA, 110 degree viewing angle, 5000-10000k color temp

These are the ones I know, I might missed some out. I am sure Luxeon(Philips) probably going to come up with something new pretty soon which are similar in lumens to compete with those companies.

Both of the LEDs (the MC-E and the P7) are actually 4 LEDs in 1 package. The specified thermal resistance of both LED arrays is 3 degrees centigrade per watt. In addition both LED arrays are 10 Watt maximum rating (Vf of 3.6V/die and Imax of 700 mA per die (the 2.8A for the Z-power is due to 4 die in parallel).

Lumen Maintenance â€"œ

The ZLED specifies a lumen maintenance curve which indicates 50% lumen maintenance at 95 degrees centigrade at full current.

From Cree® XLamp® LED Reliability (CLD-AP06.005): “Cree projects XLamp LEDs to maintain an average of 70% lumen maintenance after 50,000 hours, provided the LED junction temperature is maintained at or below 80ºC.”

The Philips Lumiled TFFC (the newest high-power LED from Philips and the one used for white LEDs in the ZeoLED ZP80/SUN are single LEDs that run at 5.8 Watts maximum and are running at about 5 Watts per LED in the ZP80/SUN. These LEDs have a thermal resistance of 5.5 degrees C per Watt (remember this is 1 die). The standard K2 is 9 degrees centigrade per watt.

Philips specifies 50,000 lumen maintenance at 120C at 1,000mA for both TFFC and standard K2 LEDs. Philips has published an addition to the lumen maintenance specification showing 70% at 50,000 hours at 112C for full current 1.5 Amp operation.

Thermal design (getting the heat away from the LED) is the most difficult part of LED luminaire design and Philips has several clear advantages here. The higher junction temperature for lumen maintenance makes the design practical. Taking the X-Lamp as an example, when running at 10 Watts the temperature rise inside the package would be 30 degrees. Assuming a maximum room temperature of 30C (86F) the maximum heat sink temperature would be only 20C higher than room temperature, not even allowing for the thermal resistance of the solder joint to the clad aluminum PC board and the heat rise of the thermally conductive alumina layer, which could be as much as 5 or 10C.

For the Philips Lumiled K2 the maximum rise internally is 5 times 5.5C or 27.5C for the TFFC and 5 times 9 or 45C for the standard K2. For a Maximum junction temperature of 112C (full power 70% 50,000 hour lumen maintenance) the back of the LED must be held to 67C for the standard K2 or 84.5C for the TFFC. This is MUCH easier to do. In practice it is doubtful that a real luminaire could be designed using either the P7 or the MC-E to run at the full 10Watt power and still preserve the 50,000 hour 70% lumen maintenance.

While the Philips Lumiled may have an advantage today, each manufacturer is aware of the awesome potential market (very little of it in aquatic illumination) and each manufacturer is is constantly improving their products. The luminaire designer needs to constantly evaluate options and availability.
 
^^^ good read, very technical, same as I mentioned above is that you need a really nice heatsink if you want to use these ultra high powered LEDs. The cost and time to design using these LEDs is not worth the extra lumens that they give out.

Another thing is, lumens doesn't mean much to the corals. In simple term, Lumens is only a measurement of how bright the light is, generally with respect to a human eye. Corals only use part of the spectrum, generally from approx 400nm-540nm, peaks at 440nm-480nm and a bit of 660nm-700nm (for corals closer to surface). That's why you use a quantum(PAR) meter to measure the light for corals, not by LUX meter.

IMO, this is the biggest advantage of using LEDs, becuase you can specifically feed only the spectrum that the corals need without wasting energy on producing colors like yellow, orange and most of the red. So if you want to make your own LED lights, use a lot of Royal blue (450-465), blue (465-485), and a little bit of green (520-535). I don't think anybody makes violet (380-450) high power LEDs yet, or at least that I know of. So you can either use the violet 5mm small LEDs or it's a good idea to supplement T5/CF actinic to fulfil the spectrum that the corals like. Of course you have to put some pure white LEDs in for our own pleasure, otherwise you will only see a bowl of dark blue water.

That is exactly what Solaris consists of, white, royal blue and blue on the older units. I heard they start to put a bit of green LED in their newer units. And again, don't judge the brightness with your eyes, green and yellow will always appears brighter then violet and red. That's just how our eyes are wired. Also, don't cheap out on heatsink and the thermal adhesive/paste. Buy the best you can find in the first place, you will know when you get those hot tamales running.


p.s. oh I forgot, I saw Joe's light at CRS and it's a very nice unit. If I am in the market to buy one, I would consider that before the Solaris. Support the locals :) Too bad it's lacking a dimmable controller, that's exactly what I am trying to do with a PIC.
 
I think I've learned that electrical engineering degree or not that I don't have the desire to reinvent an expensive wheel. It's great that they're improving them all the time. Does anyone know enough about Si fab to know what the cost of these devices will be in 2 years? I'm assuming their goal is to be more efficient and bright than the CFL bulbs at lower cost and then we'll light our homes with them?
 
Does anyone know enough about Si fab to know what the cost of these devices will be in 2 years? I'm assuming their goal is to be more efficient and bright than the CFL bulbs at lower cost and then we'll light our homes with them?

That is the goal. The critical "lumens per watt" of state of the art white LEDs is 47 to 64 which compares well with CFLs. http://www.netl.doe.gov/ssl/PDFs/EnergyEfficiencyWhiteLEDs.pdf
The same DOE document says
DOE’s long-term research and development goal calls for white-light
LEDs producing 160 lm/W in cost-effective, market-ready systems by 2025.

The really nice thing is that as the LED becomes more efficient it starts running cooler (lest waste = less heat) and is easier to design into products.

The cost of the LEDs will be driven down by mass production and competitive pressures. Eventually LED lighting will be lower in cost over life than other lighting solutions.
 
I saw the display at Exotic too, they say the growth on their corals has improved and they are swaping out their old fixtures for them. I was pretty impressed with them too and brought home a couple of tubes to try (will need to suppliment with t5's for a while since my tank will need 6 tubes for SPS).
 
Tcoral, please keep us update how those led ligths working for you, I am looking for new lighting to upgrade to a bigger tank.



Jack
 
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