LED or Halide Question

[ReefCowboy]

I'm on the same boat, have a new 60"x24"x24" that I'm setting up soon. Was debating between Giesemann MH/T5's or LED/T5's. Although many these days have had success with Leds alone, I would say more people have failed with them. I say this when users compared their led results vs their MH results. Leds alone would be the ideal situation, with sleek fixtures, full programing capacities, less heat in the tank (more important that electric savings IMO).

If I were to switch to full LED, I would be looking into the
Giesemann Vervve and the Ecotech Radions. The Radions have more par but the Vervve better spread.
Many people have been using the Radions with excellent results.
I believe at Macna this year we should see some release from Ecotech, maybe a new version of the Radions. If they did similarly to AI with an "HD" capability and improved spread with wider lenses, it would be my pick

 

[L8Braker]

SO to piggyback on this thread does any one run Metal Halide and LED's? I'm considering dropping 3 of my 6 Halo LED lights over my 300DD and replacing them with 3 metal halide 250w. This will give me the ability to change color/blue/sunrise etc but then give the look and growth of MH.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yes, there are both MH/LED hybrid fixtures as well as T5/LED hybrid fixtures. (I believe Bulk Reef Supply is using a T5/LED hybrid on one of their tanks)

 

[L8Braker]

Not talking about hybrid fixtures but actual use of both fixtures (say on a deeper dimension tank) Most hybrid fixtures don't have great LED's from what I have seen.

 

[Wazzel]

LEDs do work well. Since you feel like you have a handle on Mh I would touch on LED.

Pros
Controllability
Lower power draw
no bulb changes
small fixtures

Cons
Controllability
spread not as advertised
start up cost is higher
smaller user pool for information
lack of uniformity across manufacturers

 

[dz6t]

For large tank as 180 gallon, using halide is actually make more sense due to the coverage.
You can use three 250w halide with luminarc type of reflectors and running Radium 20K bulbs to cover the WHOLE tank. There is no t-5 supplement needed as the Radium bulbs give very good color.
If you choose LED such as Hydra HD, you need about 6 of Hydra 26HD to give you a good coverage at a similar intensity through out the tank.

 

[dz6t]

The power consumption of three 250w halides driven by HQI ballasts are about 3x320w=960w.
For 6 Hydra26HD, there will be 6x90w=$540w
The difference is $420w/hr saving. Assuming you run them 10 hr per day, that is 4.2Kw saving per day. At $0.16/kw rate, you save $0.67 per day, $20 a month.

 

[dz6t]

If you live in the desert, the reduction of cooling will save you more money.
But if you live in the colder climate, the winter heating bill will be more than enough to wipe out the electricity saving.
The bottom line is that, if you are running 2 to 3 halides, power saving is very small.
But for me, I used to run close to 25 halides, switched to LED do give me a significant amount of saving.

 

[dz6t]

If you want to cut down on whole house electricity bill, switch all light bulbs to LED, install motion sensitive flood light on drive way, shut off the light when you leave the room, shut off your TV while not watching, turn off your gaming desktop rig after use will save you way more than switching from halide to LED.
Also, consider this, your LED is not going to last for 10 years, they are good for about 4 years before you need to change the LED clusters or upgrade.
Most people who use LED do upgrade within months to a year, so they don't experience the significant light output reduction.
I still have 5 years old AI sol running.

 

[Johnseye]

LEDs do work well. Since you feel like you have a handle on Mh I would touch on LED.

Pros
Controllability
Lower power draw
no bulb changes
small fixtures

Cons
Controllability
spread not as advertised
start up cost is higher
smaller user pool for information
lack of uniformity across manufacturers

+1
And it usually takes more LEDs to get the spread you need so the cost difference may be negligible. If you like endless tweaking LED is your ticket. If you want simple excellent growth and color then MH. If you complement either with T5 you're even better off. If you go with all 3 you can't go wrong.

 

[grigsy]

I believe he was saying he saved about $150 a month on his bill once he switched from halides.

Because my heater was running all the time, I had virtually no electrical savings when I ran LEDs.

I switched back to metal halides and it virtually costs the same as running LEDs yet my coral growth is much better now, I don't have shadowing
issues like I did with LEDs and I think the shimmer of halides is more natural looking.

I for sure wont be going back to LEDs

 

[sleepydoc]

There aren't too many places in the US that need to heat year round, and as has been pointed out before, you double your energy savings of the AC is running, but if you're in one of those places where you don't need AC good for you!

If you need to heat the tank, a heater will always be more efficient than lights, but if you need to heat the room anyway, the excess heat isn't an issue. We use natural gas to heat our house, which is significantly cheaper than electric heat, so LEDs would still be technically cheaper, even in the winter, but the difference becomes much smaller in this case, so you can probably ignore it for practical purposes. If you use electric heat then there's no difference at all.

Another cost savings with LEDs over MH or T5s is bulb replacement, which is constant no matter where you live.

Ultimately, you have to figure out what your individual circumstance will mean for energy use/savings and factor that into your decision.


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[oopsmybad]

Well I have decided to go with two AI 52's.

 

[gribsrule]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in, whatever it is worth. For the first year and a half in this hobby, I ran MH-T5 combo over my tanks and even with my noob moments, I was able to get decent growth and good colors and did not lose a single coral. Not a one and I am a noob who love sps! I decided to switch to LEDs due to all the hype and with how much money I could potentially save. What has ended up happening over the last year is I have lost a LOT of coral and had very little growth. Yes some of my losses can be chalked up to more noob moments but there were stretches where I had rock solid parameters and my corals never seemed very healthy and I had little growth. The savings from switching to LED was minuscule compared to what I lost from coral death or lack of growth. I am now switching back to MH as my main light source with LED and T5 supplements. The one thing I do like about LEDs is the color pop that you get. Great for supplements but I dont think I will use them as my main light source anymore.

 

[HippieSmell]

But for me, I used to run close to 25 halides, switched to LED do give me a significant amount of saving.

Are you a zoo? I'd love to see a picture.

 

[Bpb]

One explanation of the cost reduction would likely (at least in my region, be either less chiller running, and less strain on the home AC. 1000+ watts of MH can really heat up a room, not just the tank, which I could see causing the air conditioner to run a lot harder. Not as much of an issue in cooler climates. The car vs aquarium lighting analogy isn't really a fair one. There are actual real benefits to running metal halides, not just higher cost.

To the OP. Metal halides are still metal
Halides. You know them, you love them. And despite what people say who have never used them, they still will yield the best results from purely growing and coloring standpoint. Period the end. I didn't say LEDs don't do nearly as well, or in some cases of people who really know how to use them, almost just as well, but mh is still the choice to put over the tank, turn it on, and focus attention elsewhere because your lighting is perfect.

If you've got the scratch, and can afford enough panels (for your 120 gallon, that would be 3 radion pros or hydra 52 units if it's rimless, or 4 if it has a center brace), and do enough research in how to tune them, you could get nearly as good of results from LEDs. They won't save you a penny in the long term (5-10 years) if you buy them brand new, because the energy savings won't be significant in your case, but they do run cooler. Your tank would only need 2x250 watt radiums due to its size. 400 watt bulbs is unnecessary for that size. Just one reefers opinion.


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[oopsmybad]

Your tank would only need 2x250 watt radiums due to its size. 400 watt bulbs is unnecessary for that size. Just one reefers opinion

Thanks Bob. I use to run 2 x 400 watt 20K bulbs on my other 120 I had back in the day and it always did just fine. I even had a shallow clam take that had 6 x 400 watt 20K halides on it.

 

[Bpb]

Oh you CAN use 400 watt bulbs. I just don't think it's necessary. But a properly driven 400 watt radium (using an electronic ballast, driven to spec which is actually about 390 watts), and a properly driven 250 watt radium (on an m80 hqi ballast, which is about 330-370 watts) aren't that different in power consumed. If you use the overdrive feature to overdrive the 400 watt bulbs that's different now. They're not designed for it, though they can tolerate it and look nice in the process


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[gus6464]

ATI Sunpower 8x54 - $585
8 bulbs - $160
432W
Total - $745 initial + $160/yr on bulbs
4 year cost - $1225

AI Hydra 52HD - $600
270W
Total - $1200
4 year cost - $1200

Electricity cost per month (10 hour cycle) @ $0.13kW
ATI - $16.85
AI - $10.53

Now this is assuming that 2x Hydra56 is enough for your tank which in reality it's not if you are doing SPS and eventually you will add a third Hydra 56 to get the even coverage that still won't be a match for the T5. Then there's of course the ability T5 has to color up corals which every LED fanboy will disagree with but I have yet to see the best LED tanks that can go toe to toe with the top T5 ones but that's neither here nor there.

Going with the proper amount of LED you will need for that tank you end up spending more money and still won't be cheaper after 4 years than the T5.

 

[ReefCowboy]

I wonder how long would good quality fixtures such as Radions hold up their leds without par loss?
That is a good point i think about T5s and MH, you switch a bulb and you are guaranteed to have full par, like the fixture was brand new.

Wonder how long will we have Radium bulbs available? Would they be discontinued now with Leds becoming more common? I might have to stock up...