LED Vs. Gas Lighting

DaddyJax

New member
I am in no way a MIT grad or have the schooling needed to answer this question so I am hoping to get some answers from someone or group who does.

It seems to me that LED's are not producing the same quality as MH or T5's when it comes to colors on their own. Only when a combination is incorporated does the corals respond. Not saying that they dont grow or have any color, just not the same quality or depth.

I wanted to know if the UV radiation difference or isotopes or black light radiation or IR radiation or whatever is the difference. Being that the T5's, VHO's and MH's are all gas(like the sun) and produce different types of radiation(like the sun) than LED's then there is something missing that the corals respond to, much like insects not being attracted to LED's.

I look forward to this discussion.
 
The primary difference between the light output on between gas lights and LEDs is that the gas lights are exciting the electrons in gas molecules which relax back to their normal state in a variety of steps creating a very broad spectrum, in t5s & other florescent lights there is a coating on the inside of the tubes which can limit what wave lengths are let out.

LEDs put out light in a very tight spectrum, so in order to match the exact spectrum of a gas bulb, you would have to have a wide variety of LEDs that have very close spectrums in order to get the continuous broad spectrum that the gas lights put out.

While there are UV and IR LEDs, they are specialized LEDs that put out a very narrow spectrum. Gas bulbs just inherently put out IR and UV because of the nature of the way they emit light.

Im not an MIT grad either (I am a Florida Tech grad), nor am I an engineer (even though Environmental Science was in the college of engineering). But this is the difference the best that I understand it.
 
Most newer LED lighting add UV diodes now to help add more PAR. The inherent problem I see is that LEDs use a natural blending of colors through a lens to mimic the full bandwidth of PAR and spread. Think of a red and blue diode to create purple I stead of an actual purple or orange diodes etc. I think it's those mimicked colors that coral (or insect) can tell are fake. Just my opinion from observation.
 
All I can say is in my 120 Gallon tank the Reef Breeders cheap lights give my SPS far better colloring than I did with two 175 Mogul 10K Ushio MH's with 24 cree royal blue acitinics.
 
Exciting the electrons was got me thinking about possible radiation that is given off that the LED's couldn't.

Sgt. York, I am happy to hear that. I have yet to personally see anything impressive yet with LED's alone. Colors would be present but muted and not have a lot of depth, for lack of better terms.
 
Photons are photons and electromagnetic radiation is electromagnetic radiation, doesn't matter the source. Additionally white leds are using the same phosphors as are used in fluorescent bulbs, don't see much difference there. Spectrum on the other hand will be argued for a long time to come.
 
I think a lot of the retailers are slowly adopting LEDs. Frags acclimated to LED will just makes it easy for some and an acclimation cycle for others. LEDs make an impressive display and will only improve as time goes on. Look how far florescent and MH lighting has evolved.
 
It seems to me that LED's are not producing the same quality as MH or T5's when it comes to colors on their own. Only when a combination is incorporated does the corals respond. Not saying that they dont grow or have any color, just not the same quality or depth.

Although others certainly share your opinion, some people seem to think they are getting wonderful color and growth with LEDs. To my knowledge, no scientific (e.g. hypothesis driven and controlled) experiments have been done to truly measure color or growth of corals under the various artificial light sources. Looking at pictures online of tanks with the different lighting types is next to useless because of the huge number of uncontrolled variables in addition to light type (e.g. light color, intensity, water params, corals species, feeding regimens, disease/pest presence, picture taking method, computer screen differences, personal taste differences, etc). Thus, we really don't know whether one type of artificial lighting is "better" in any objective sense than the others. In fact, I've never seen any convincing evidence that the sun grows better corals than artificial lights. Again, to my knowledge no one has done a controlled experiment and we cannot simply look at natural reefs and say the corals grow better because of the sun. There are simply too many uncontrolled variables out there to make any conclusions.

I wanted to know if the UV radiation difference or isotopes or black light radiation or IR radiation or whatever is the difference. Being that the T5's, VHO's and MH's are all gas(like the sun) and produce different types of radiation(like the sun) than LED's then there is something missing that the corals respond to, much like insects not being attracted to LED's.

Just FYI, isotopes are atoms with the same number of protons but different numbers of neutrons (e.g. Carbon 12, Carbon 13, and Carbon 14; all have 6 protons and are thus called Carbon, but Carbon 12 has 6 neutrons and Carbon 13 has 7 neutrons, etc.). Lights do not give off isotopes/atoms of any kind; if they did, then they would likely be highly damaging to living things (e.g. radioactive via alpha decay). The lights we use give off only photons, which all have the same resting mass (0 daltons).

Now I'll get off my soapbox and answer your actual question, which is a good one. As I said above, no controlled experiments have been done to test what type of artificial lighting is best for growing/viewing corals, so we don't know whether more or less UV (blacklight = long-wave UV, bordering on the visible spectrum) or IR radiation is good for coral growth or color.

I would wager that UV does virtually nothing for coral growth and might actually hurt them. I base this assumption on the absorption spectra of chlorophyll a and b, neither of which absorbs photons efficiently in the UV spectrum, and that ionizing radiation is bad for all organisms with nucleic acid (e.g. all life except prions, if you even count them as alive). Assuming that the dinoflagellates that photosynthesize for corals do not have some novel chlorophyll that has yet to be discovered, they do not get energy from UV and thus UV probably doesn't help corals.

However, it is possible that some amount of UV brings out the fluorescence of corals because one major hypothesis about coral coloration is that fluorescent pigments are produced as a kind of sunscreen to protect them from excess/damaging light. If this is the case, then UV might trigger corals to produce more "sunscreen" and become more colorful. But no controlled experiments = no conclusion.

I would also wager that IR isn't useful for corals. I base this assumption again on the absorption spectra of chlorophyll a and b, as above, but also on the penetrance of IR in water. My understanding, and I am not a physicist or expert on optics, is that water is almost opaque to most IR wavelengths, meaning that even if you blasted your tank with IR, almost none of it would ever reach the corals (although it would heat up your tank nicely).

As a final side note, although fluorescents, metal halides, and the sun all technically use "gas" to produce light, they use vastly different gasses in vastly different ways and produce vastly different spectra. They are so far from being comparable to each other that I would argue that fluorescents and MHs put out spectra that are MUCH more similar to a modern LED fixture than to the sun, despite the fact that LEDs are the only solid state light emitter among the four sources.
 
I threw in isotopes as more of a non literal word hence the "whatever" at the end.

I am very grateful for the responses. I agree with the sunscreen statement and believe that is what I am referring to as far as "depth" in coloration. Would like to see controlled experiments done.

The spectra is not what I am going after with the line of questions. Is there any thing that is given off from exciting/pressure gas atoms to produce light that is not from a solid state emitter?
 
The depth of the spectrum can differ greatly from one bulb to another. Sanjay Joshi has compressive articles on lighting. IMO he is the only aquarium lighting specialist who has performed non-biased reviews. Often with great detail in his experimentation. His articles cover MH, LED, T5, and more I'm sure. I'd highly recommend googling him.

I personally believe that beautiful results can come from MANY different types of light sources. But my personal experience with cheap LED vs. T5... everything looked better and had better color under T5

Anyone out there know if Sanjay has a book?
 
The spectra is not what I am going after with the line of questions. Is there any thing that is given off from exciting/pressure gas atoms to produce light that is not from a solid state emitter?

As Timfish said
Photons are photons and electromagnetic radiation is electromagnetic radiation, doesn't matter the source.

The thing that gas lights put out that LEDs don't is the continuous spectrum. well, and heat too, but that's IR pretty much... With LEDs you have a limited number of wavelength options, and that limits the spectrum to what LEDs you have. So with some corals, if there is a specific wavelength that they like or that makes them look really nice, it may not be getting produced by the limited number of LEDs in a fixture, but the gas light with the continuous spectrum will cover that and everything else.

With the UV Leds, they put out a small range around 420nm, but the gas lights cover continuously from 420nm all the way up through 450nm. If the coral responds best to a wavelength that's between your uv LEDs and your royal blue LEDs it wont respond as well as it would with the gas lights.

Its kind of like you are asking what makes them different besides what makes them different...
 
This reminds me of an 800g tank were half was light LED and the other half with fluorescent/MH. I cannot remember who it was, though I do remember they had a camera running for a while. if my memory serves me correctly, it sometimes works half ***, that their growth rates between the two sides very much the same.

as far as the colors between the two sides I do not remember.

And for photon radiation vs electromagnetic radiation differences are huge. Electromagnetic radiation will not "tan" the melanoma in tissue as photon radiation would. Most of the time you can't even tell there is electromagnetic radiation unless it's extremely intense, but that's from our perspective and not coral. Same applies to specific color bands where LED's mimic colors we see, more than likely coral can tell what's missing and then adapt over weeks to make up whatever proteins their algae farms are not.
 
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Full Tank shot 5/2013 Before Crash With 12 LED Panels Tank grown under led for about 16 months.

FTSFTS.JPG


Full Tank Shot 1/2014 removing 2 led panels and turning down the leds approx. 50% and adding 4 used 250 watt Radiums. Radiums installed about a month.

ftsjan2014.JPG



The crash was not related to lighting but rather to some HVAC issues and stressed starving corals I had over the summer. The image processing is slightly different but I think there is no doubt that the growth and color has accelerated with the addition of the MH. Thanks JDA if your reading!

Id stick with a combo of the two!
 
And for photon radiation vs electromagnetic radiation differences are huge. Electromagnetic radiation will not "tan" the melanoma in tissue as photon radiation would. Most of the time you can't even tell there is electromagnetic radiation unless it's extremely intense, but that's from our perspective and not coral. Same applies to specific color bands where LED's mimic colors we see, more than likely coral can tell what's missing and then adapt over weeks to make up whatever proteins their algae farms are not.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. All photons are, by definition, electromagnetic radiation, regardless of the wavelength. In other words radio waves, microwaves, IR, visible light, UV, X-rays, gamma rays... they are all "made" of photons and are all electromagnetic radiation. Photons are just a particle model of electromagnetic waves. So there are absolutely no differences between "electromagnetic" and "photon" radiation. Also, melanomas are a cancer of melanocytes, a type of cell that produces melanin, which is a group of pigments, some of which are photo-protective. I've not read anything that suggests corals even have melanocytes or melanin (though they might). I assume you are trying to make analogy between humans tanning after sun exposure and corals getting more colorful? This might be the case, but I have yet to see any scientific studies on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but these are topics that a great majority of us (reefers) do not understand very well, and I believe that posting confusing information/misinformation about these issues is only making it harder for us to resolve these complicated questions.

To Daddyjax: all the types of lights are only putting off light (photons). Only the distribution of wavelengths and their intensities (AKA spectra) differ between light sources, regardless of how the light is generated. The only exception is the sun, which also puts off many other charged particles, most of which are filtered out by our atmosphere, but some of which reach the ground (and even travel through the earth like neutrinos). However, I have never even heard it suggested that any organisms use these particles for anything, as many of them interact with other matter so poorly that they are difficult to detect with even the most sensitive man-made sensors. As Mpy said: "Its kind of like you are asking what makes them [lights] different besides what makes them different...". Still, it was a good question that certainly got me thinking, as you can probably tell from my huge posts :)
 
Its kind of like you are asking what makes them different besides what makes them different...

Sort of. There is a difference in what is emitted. Seems like most of the focus is solely on the spectrum and not on anything broader or out of the box. Kind of like how the sun gives us Vitamin D. Atoms excited also gives off different types of energy and maybe other stuff that I am not aware of.
This is why I brought this here is so that people with far more knowledge and education could help me and/or entertain the idea.
 
Sort of. There is a difference in what is emitted. Seems like most of the focus is solely on the spectrum and not on anything broader or out of the box. Kind of like how the sun gives us Vitamin D. Atoms excited also gives off different types of energy and maybe other stuff that I am not aware of.

The sun doesn't really "give" us vitamin D, rather our bodies are capable of generating vitamin D when our skin is exposed to certain wavelengths of light, which the sun (and some artificial light sources) produce. This is sort of like saying the sun "gives" plants sugar. The sun only gives plants and us photons. What we do with those photons is another story. Electronically excited atoms/materials (e.g. not radioactive materials/nuclear fission or fusion) can only give off three types of particles: photons, electrons, or ions/atoms. All our choices of artificial lighting completely block any electrons or ions given off using glass or lenses. Thus, only photons are given off by the lights. Again, the sun is different but probably not in any meaningful way other than spectral differences. There really isn't a difference in what is emitted from artificial lights except for the light spectrum.
 
From a hobby point of view, they would be different. As far as coral color goes its both flourescent and chromoproteins, where the chromoproteins are mostly responsible for the blue, pink, purple and red on coral. Alf Nilsen wrote and excellent article on the subject a month or so back, "coral colors". Basically that the chromoproteins in corals in shallower reef zones contains more chromoproteins than those corals found deeper. under a microscope looking at the dermal tissue of a corals the chromoprotein layer found in shallow reef coral we're above the zooxanthellae as to shield their farm. Those from deeper waters had chromoproteins mixed at the zooxanthellae layer or below it.
 
Very cool info ArmyGreens! Although it isn't proof, it is more support for the colorful/fluorescent proteins are a biological sunscreen theory. What we really need is for someone to take frags from the same mother colony and grow them in the same tank with similar flow but under different light intensities. Then repeat for different spectra. Then repeat for different light sources. That way we can see directly how much impact different light intensities, sources, and spectra have on coloration in at least one species. Of course it would be best if fluorescence/color/chromoprotein levels were quantified by some instrument or assay, but even just photos of the two pieces side by side (in the same picture) would be much stronger evidence than any I have seen to date.
 
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