xxxduke62xxx
New member
Would put a bunch more but my phone only let's me post one pic at a time and it's annoying but you get the idea. Not bad for 5 months of growth with LEEds huh 
LED's are bad for our Hobby
- Thread starter b7fig
- Start date
reefmutt
Active member
Couple points.. We can't compare when t5 came on the market to leds coming to market.
Yes there was resistance at first but then people adopted t5 and they worked perfectly. Within one or two years there was not a bad word said about t5.
Leds have been adopted and more people have trouble dialing them in than people who have success with them - even after 5 or 6 or more years.
I started my first reef tank with Phillips actinic and 65k t12. I have used everything in between t12 and leds, including leds And I can say that I have never had such a hard time making a light source work as I have with leds...
Another important point that I think the op should have made a bit more clear (imho) is that more often than not, it is sps and acropora in particular that are more acutely sensitive to leds than other corals. Ime, anyways.
Clearly, leds can do the job but I think they make things dramatically more complicated and add a whole extra level of questioning to the already complex nature of setting up a reef tank..
And I might even say that it would not surprise me to learn that more corals have been lost to LEDs than to other light sources... I have no numbers to back this up.... But it wouldn't surprise me if it were the case..
Oh and I'm waiting for the super, DUPER pro radions!
Yes there was resistance at first but then people adopted t5 and they worked perfectly. Within one or two years there was not a bad word said about t5.
Leds have been adopted and more people have trouble dialing them in than people who have success with them - even after 5 or 6 or more years.
I started my first reef tank with Phillips actinic and 65k t12. I have used everything in between t12 and leds, including leds And I can say that I have never had such a hard time making a light source work as I have with leds...
Another important point that I think the op should have made a bit more clear (imho) is that more often than not, it is sps and acropora in particular that are more acutely sensitive to leds than other corals. Ime, anyways.
Clearly, leds can do the job but I think they make things dramatically more complicated and add a whole extra level of questioning to the already complex nature of setting up a reef tank..
And I might even say that it would not surprise me to learn that more corals have been lost to LEDs than to other light sources... I have no numbers to back this up.... But it wouldn't surprise me if it were the case..
Oh and I'm waiting for the super, DUPER pro radions!
Bilk
New member
How are you taking your measurements for the LED? Do you use a conversion factor to interpret your readings? 500-650 par with LED seems rather optimistic. I had Ecoxotic Cannons over the tank with Kessil and some BuildMy Led strips and couldn't achieve that par except at the very top of the tank. I also had to run them all on maximum output which wouldn't appear blue as it does in your pic.
muttley101
Never go full retard!
What I think the OP was pointing out is that some people getting into the hobby for the first time is more likely to have more problems than putting some t5's or Mh over some corals. As a prior LED user it took time to dial in the spectrum and intensity to accommodate the coral's needs.
I can say that there are some LFS's out there getting feedback from customers that their corals have burned because of not knowing how to dial in their leds. Im pretty sure that the LFS is making a repeat sale from the new user mistakes, but some new hobbyist may just quit all together.
I know that most LED's users can say that it takes more time to dial in an LED fixture than installing a bulb. Whether or not LED is better than T5/MH... go search the forum ... there are many threads bashing each technology.
I can say that there are some LFS's out there getting feedback from customers that their corals have burned because of not knowing how to dial in their leds. Im pretty sure that the LFS is making a repeat sale from the new user mistakes, but some new hobbyist may just quit all together.
I know that most LED's users can say that it takes more time to dial in an LED fixture than installing a bulb. Whether or not LED is better than T5/MH... go search the forum ... there are many threads bashing each technology.
+1^
Nano sapiens
New member
A lot of folks discussing LEDs in relation to larger systems where other options are tried and true and space is generally not a big concern. LEDs have a very bright (excuse the pun ) future in the nano/pico reef world due to having much less heat output and the emitters can be configured into a relatively small form factor. I've been noticing a lot more attention to spectrum going into some of these small commercial LED arrays lately, too, since lack of spectrum has been an achilles heel with early LED systems. In this segment at least, I find that LEDs can be quite quite good, actually, and can accomodate a wide range of SPS when all other parameters are within acceptable ranges.
I do understand and appreciate the challenges LEDs currently present in keeping delicate SPS in very large and/or deep reef aquaria. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call them a 'failure', but rather a 'challenge', since some reef keepers are having good results with SPS.
) future in the nano/pico reef world due to having much less heat output and the emitters can be configured into a relatively small form factor. I've been noticing a lot more attention to spectrum going into some of these small commercial LED arrays lately, too, since lack of spectrum has been an achilles heel with early LED systems. In this segment at least, I find that LEDs can be quite quite good, actually, and can accomodate a wide range of SPS when all other parameters are within acceptable ranges.I do understand and appreciate the challenges LEDs currently present in keeping delicate SPS in very large and/or deep reef aquaria. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call them a 'failure', but rather a 'challenge', since some reef keepers are having good results with SPS.
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reef bloke
Member
Not a dig, but Im sure the worst tank would luminescent as good as yours does under that lighting profile. Id like to see this tank under bright MH's.
Whilst not the best aquarium in the world LED's work for me (Hydra 52's) .
Despite the fact that i have no problem with LED's the other issue that needs discussing is that MH/T5 although still great light sources have a bit of a finite life span now so like it or lump it we have to move forward.
The Aquarium is 6 foot x 33.5" wide x 27" tall
My tank under 52's
Hi, i found a crappy iPhone image when i was testing 400watt 20k Giesemann lamp next to a single 52 earlier in the life of the tank, the 52 is slightly warmer but the corals fluoresce about the same under either lamp. The PAR numbers were very similar, i need to find my old notes as they are buried somewhere on my hard drive. I slightly repositioned the yellow tangs for each shot. ;-}
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reef bloke
Member
Hi
I usually include a 5% offset in my readings due to the blue bias of the LED's. Its probably closer to 10% but i didn't want to over inflate my results.
As i had 4 x 52 on the aquarium i was seeing up to 700 PAR in certain areas at around 8-10" from the water surface , i did a rough double check with a Seneye PAR meter and this came out higher so i discounted it.
Ill see if i can find the results as it was a while back
Wazzel
New member
A lot of folks discussing LEDs in relation to larger systems where other options are tried and true and space is generally not a big concern. LEDs have a very bright (excuse the pun
I do understand and appreciate the challenges LEDs currently present in keeping delicate SPS in very large and/or deep reef aquaria. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call them a 'failure', but rather a 'challenge', since some reef keepers are having good results with SPS.
Agree, LEDs are more of a challenge that MH or T-5 due to the controllability. Calling them "bad for the hobby" or "a failure" is far from true.
The biggest enemy of LED light fixtures such as Radions and Hydra's in my personal opinion is the controllability. You need to set and forget and let your corals adjust. In March of last year I converted my 240 from T5 to 4 Radion G3's. While I don't believe I get the same amount of growth that I was achieving with the T5 my colors are definitely much better under the Radion's. Don't get me wrong, I'm still getting excellent growth and some of my SPS grow faster under the LED's than they ever did under T5's. However, I am concerned about the light coverage and shadowing issues of the Radion's and have ordered another 4 so effectively that is $6K of lights. I paid about $3K for my 2 ATI Powermodules and then about $400 a year on bulbs so it will equal out eventually. LED's aren't cheap and they can from my experience grow very colorful SPS and as companies like Ecotech and AI continue to develop the technology they are only going to get better. I'm very happy with my Radions and love the look of my tank with them over it, much better than I did with the T5's. T5's always seems to have that washed out look to me.
Denadai
New member
I agree. If you go with leds, you need a lot of them !!! a lot to have a good coverage !
I gave up led´s and I will be back with T5 or MH soon
I never had a problem with t5 or MH but with leds the thing´s always in not 100% and you always are trying to figure out what is happening with your tank
Besides, I had trouble with Vega and Hydra 52, burned leds and others controllers problems
Best regards
Bilk
New member
It may be closer to 20% which is a pretty good differential to have to account for. I have no doubt that LED grow corals and that those corals can thrive under them. There is definitely more thought and science that one needs to be put into the equation that MH/T5s don't require.
I like the idea behind them, the energy savings and the way they make a tank look. No doubt about that. I also like the dawn/dusk cycle and even the controllability, which oddly also seems to be their limitation. I think if mfgs. want to help sell their lights, they need to put more effort into some form of methods to utilize them and explain that well enough for hobbyists instead of leaving it up to hobbyists for trial and error. It seems that right now the industry just tossed a technology out there into the wild without showing their methods for success. Surely they tested their lights during development and should share that in some way with the community.
animalkingdom
New member
Maybe its all the tinkering that is making LED tanks less successful. When I first put LEDs on my tank I followed the Rickett's reef youtube video to do my build back in 2011. I didn't have any fancy dimming or color control. Just 50:50 cool white and royal blue and 64 3w leds total over a 65 gallon tank. Intensity was at 100% via analog dimming knobs for both blue and white and it just stayed there. Everything I through under them did fine. That sounds a lot like metal halide stories. Maybe all this control-ability has put too much control in the hands of the users and has created issues through lack of knowledge. I just followed the old rule of thumb 5-10 watts per gallon for halide/sps and divided by 3 to figure out how much leds I needed and it worked. I didn't supplement other colors or do weird ramp ups and downs in intensity, the blues were on a wall timer for 10 hours and the whites were on for 8. It worked.
Other things I think are important to remember is starting a tank with one light source and letting coral grow in under it and then switching light sources can have all sorts of complications as the corals grew to the light patterns and then they changed. This is why growing from frags is always my preferred approach and I also prefer to keep lights on a given system consistent.
Another issue I think happens a lot is people add the coral before the fish. While I think this can be done successfully it does complicate things slightly. I prefer starting a tank with fish and rock and maybe some softies and lps. This helps to ensure a good mature cycle. When things progress and you notice a happy population of microfauna and a variety of coralline you know your tank is more than capable of supporting more finicky sps. As you start to add sps its important to supplement calc and alk in some way and monitoring these levels may be necessary.
Other things I think are important to remember is starting a tank with one light source and letting coral grow in under it and then switching light sources can have all sorts of complications as the corals grew to the light patterns and then they changed. This is why growing from frags is always my preferred approach and I also prefer to keep lights on a given system consistent.
Another issue I think happens a lot is people add the coral before the fish. While I think this can be done successfully it does complicate things slightly. I prefer starting a tank with fish and rock and maybe some softies and lps. This helps to ensure a good mature cycle. When things progress and you notice a happy population of microfauna and a variety of coralline you know your tank is more than capable of supporting more finicky sps. As you start to add sps its important to supplement calc and alk in some way and monitoring these levels may be necessary.
Wazzel
New member
Your first point is extremely important. With SPS stability promotes success. Changing lighting all the time is not going to make the animals happy. I decided on my lighting plan at the start and have stuck with it for almost a year. The changes I have made have been very minor, and not often. My light plan is also very simple, which IMO is better that doing funky things with the colors during the day.
Wish there was an easy way to gather the data so we could compare between successful and non-successful LED lit tanks and find some common operating conditions.
Grandlotus
Member
You can keep your MH's and T5's and Chillers and change them expensive bulbs every 6 months and ill keep my LED's that will last for tens of years with much less energy bill and no need for a chiller.
I must know, how much has your energy bill + bulb bill soared?
I must know, how much has your energy bill + bulb bill soared?
Wazzel
New member
You can keep your MH's and T5's and Chillers and change them expensive bulbs every 6 months and ill keep my LED's that will last for tens of years with much less energy bill and no need for a chiller.
I must know, how much has your energy bill + bulb bill soared?
It is not as much as you think. MH are about $10 per unit per month more to run than a LED unit. If you do a MH/T-5 it is about $15 per unit per month. Those are just ball parks since electrical rates and operating durations matter. The numbers includes annual bulb replacement estimates.
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ReefsandGeeks
New member
I wanted to go to the presentation too, but probably gonna miss it. Please post any interesting info from the presentation if you can. I'm hoping I can find time to catch the last couple hours of the conference.
fishguy597
Member
This isn't always the case but something I have noticed more often then not is high intensity and low nitrates. People are using carbon dosing, bio pellets , high capacity gfo, rox .08 carbon, ulns, or have a new tank. People are stripping their tanks and blasting them with light. Then they wonder why there tank isn't responding well to them. I think the more you feed your tank and can elevate your nitrates a bit with out going crazy , the better your corals will be under LEDs. I also believe that for some reason that mh are more forgiving to the coral when the tank is being stripped of nutrients. I now have my tank running at 10 for nitrates and have been as high as 20. My tank has never looked better.
I had built a program for my radions(4 gen 2's in a 72x24x24) and I do not mess with it(much).I give the tank a different kelvin for so much time and move to the next ramping up and down. Over the last couple years as my nitrates rose so I also raised my intensity. I got all the way up to 85% before I dropped back down to 80%. So I think tweaking LEDs need to be done, just slowly. Doing research before you start them helps too so you have an idea of what to expect. I.e. Coral being to light or dark.
Maybe I'm wrong but this is what I have observed in my tank. I used to run mh in the beginning and now run LEDs. I have also learned a lot between then and now.
I had built a program for my radions(4 gen 2's in a 72x24x24) and I do not mess with it(much).I give the tank a different kelvin for so much time and move to the next ramping up and down. Over the last couple years as my nitrates rose so I also raised my intensity. I got all the way up to 85% before I dropped back down to 80%. So I think tweaking LEDs need to be done, just slowly. Doing research before you start them helps too so you have an idea of what to expect. I.e. Coral being to light or dark.
Maybe I'm wrong but this is what I have observed in my tank. I used to run mh in the beginning and now run LEDs. I have also learned a lot between then and now.
reef bloke
Member
I tend to agree
The high PAR from LED will drive Zooxanthellae and without prey capture as would be available in the wild or detectable nutrients the corals tend to go into shock and either go into self preservation and not grow or pale/strip
I have found the trick is not too mount the LED's too close the water , run a timer plan where there isn't peak par though out the day (2-3 hours around midday) and feed the fish a little more to bump up nutrients a bit.
Most of the issues that people suffer are due to photo inhibition as Blue heavy LED's tend to look quite dim to our eyes as terrestrial animals biased to red's but are actually screaming PAR in the range corals are sensitive too.
Just my thoughts.
