Leopard Wrasses

[small alien]

And finally, I have know people who have tried 15 to get 2 to live in their tanks. One was DOA but I guess in your mind Small Alien that's my fault. 2 died within 6 hours. Again ... I guess that is something I did wrong. And finally one lasted 5 days.

I feared you would think I was suggesting it was your fault. I most certainly am not. You frankly sounded lazy to me when you said "51 pages!". When you're having that much trouble with a species (I think 5 is a good bit of trouble), I expect people to have enough hunger for information to read all 51 pages. There could be a tid bit in there that provides a clue for you. How can you know that it does not unless you read it. That's my point.

Again, I hope you figure out what the deal is and have good luck keeping this amazing fish.

 

[salty321]

I didn't realise they were so tricky. I bought one pretty much on a whim a month back and put it straight into the DT and he's still there with no apparant problems. I must be lucky. I hope your luck changes since they are gorgeous fish.

Chris

 

[Mental1]

Small Alien -- is being offensive the only way you know how to communicate? I don't think reading 20 pages is an indication of laziness. Why don't you go be "helpful" with someone else.

 

[rort]

Mental, I don't find small alien being that offensive with his comments, he does seem like he is just trying to help. But it is probably best to move past it.

I have had the lucky chance to care for a good amount of leopard wrasses and have kept about 3 of them for more than 6months. Longest being 2 years and still to this day. As the sticky talks a lot about, it is about shipping and many other things that decide the fishes fate before we ever see them.

I do feel tho that if you are able to see them eating before you take them home you increase your chances 10x.

I wish you luck but at the same time fish like these raise great concern to me about our attitudes towards these difficult fish and necessity to have them. Some fish, well animals, are not meant for our tanks with the current knowledge we have, and the more we buy them, the more the stores get them from wholesalers, and the more they are picked from the ocean where they have a much better chance of living. Iamwrasseman says in the sticky that he has gone through (if i am quoting right) over 100 specimens and have lost them... ;-(

But people want what they want and I hope that you find one of these beautiful wrasses and it lives long in your tank!

 

[Mental1]

Bobby -- someone else did send me a pm saying they felt Small Alien was rude -- so that is at least two of us. So the score is now 2 for rude and 2 for not rude -- assuming that Small Alien does not think he is rude. But as you said -- let's move on.

Well, I am at home today not feeling well so am reading the thread, am up to page 42 and have read nothing new. I don't really understand everyone's desire to force me to read that thread when I have expressed what the basic issues are with the fish. I am also not sure why the issues I want to talk about cannot be discussed!

I also think it is kind of funny to have Small Alien giving me a hard time for losing 5 fish when, as you mention, iamwrasseman has lost many, many more. But actually it is seven but one died in the LFS before I even was able to pick it up. Then there was the one several years ago that I lost and inspired the reading that I have done. So it is actually 7 fish that I have lost.

So let's once again, talk about all of the things I have done. I have an 18 month old tank with lots of pods. I acclimate in the dark for at least an hour or two. I brought one home in the shipping bag so it did not have to go through acclimation twice. I bought three at a time from LA and all three died -- one DOA, one in 6 hours and one 5 days. I had live pods delivered the day they arrived and flooded the tank with them. I feed PE mysis. I soak with selecon. I don't disturb them in the sand. Their tank mates are not aggressive. The one I had for two weeks looked perfect in death.

So how about if someone actually looks at my issues! I am looking at several options one of which I found on another thread which talks about a gel food treatment that has prozi in it versus treating the whole system. I can't find the thread again so do not know what the product is. I also think there may be something in the sandbed and am wondering if maybe a sand sifting star may be the answer there. And finally -- what about the kuiteri? Geez -- why is it so hard to discuss these few things?

 

[stunreefer]

I am looking at several options one of which I found on another thread which talks about a gel food treatment that has prozi in it versus treating the whole system. I can't find the thread again so do not know what the product is.

Be careful treating foods with meds. Personally I prefer to treat the entire tank with a given med as you know how much you're exposing the fish to. While treating a food with a med, how do you determine the amouont the fish is actually ingesting? How do you determine the amount you're actually putting in the food? While dosing a tank it's easy, you add X amount per Y gallons. In your situation you'll be hard pressed to do this with the FW issue... rock and a hard place. Sorry not much help, but wanted to point out potential issues with medicating foods. Although, Jay (JHemdal) is very knowledgeable when it comes to treating fish, and I know he has directly medicated foods before - maybe shoot him a PM.

I also think there may be something in the sandbed and am wondering if maybe a sand sifting star may be the answer there.

Are the bodies intact when you find them? One of my first thoughts while reading the thread was that something in the sand was potentially getting them, but it kinda came off like you were finding the bodies at least somewhat intact...

 

[small alien]

That's interesting about the medicated foods.

I will follow this thread but will not "help" further at the OP's request.

 

[Mental1]

Yea -- I was thinking about the difficulties of treating the food itself but was also thinking it was better than nothing. I will see what Jay says -- thank you for the suggestion.

There was never a mark on any of the fish at all. I did have a die off event of corals that started the day before the wrasse that lasted two weeks was added. But the timing was off for her digging causing a release of toxins. And if she had hit a pocket she would have died sooner rather than 2 weeks later. I never figured out why the corals died -- I had a huge birdsnest that I have had for many years die in about 24 hours which then killed some neighboring corals. But then I also had an ORA green birdsnest and all the tips died. I did huge carbon and water changes and it seems to have resolved itself but I do not know what caused that.

I don't know if that is related to that particular wrasse but she looked absolutely perfect in death. She was fat, no marks at all, nothing obvious to the naked eye. The other wrasses I do think were all just cases of poor shipping. The fact that a meleagris wrasse was DOA from LA was a bit surprising to me. They were all skinny and several did the death circle swimming. So all of those I understood but as I have mentioned several times -- it is the last one that has me wondering. Why would an established fish -- years in another person's tank -- just last two weeks? Thats says something in the sand to me.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Sorry if I missed it, how many have eaten for you?

 

[Mental1]

Well, out of the 7, 2 were doa, 3 buried themselves and within 6 hours were dead, one lasted 5 days and was eating. Another lasted 2 weeks and was eating.

 

[snorvich]

I have found various thresholds of viability:

1st threshold is shipping - I have had 3 DOA in the bag
2nd threshold is overnight - I have had two disappear after one night
3rd threshold is one month - ALL of mine that made it for a month thrived (5)

 

[Mental1]

Well, I bypassed the shipping problem with the tang from the local reefer as I drove for one hour with it in a big bucket. I made it past the overnight although it worried me as it did not come out for 2 days. Then it was up early every morning before the lights were even on. It went to sleep every day mid-afternoon. Then one day it woke up late and I thought oh-oh. Then the next day it was a no-show until I found it dead. Did not make the last threshold.

 

[smoothdog]

Yea -- I was thinking about the difficulties of treating the food itself but was also thinking it was better than nothing. I will see what Jay says -- thank you for the suggestion.

There was never a mark on any of the fish at all. I did have a die off event of corals that started the day before the wrasse that lasted two weeks was added. But the timing was off for her digging causing a release of toxins. And if she had hit a pocket she would have died sooner rather than 2 weeks later. I never figured out why the corals died -- I had a huge birdsnest that I have had for many years die in about 24 hours which then killed some neighboring corals. But then I also had an ORA green birdsnest and all the tips died. I did huge carbon and water changes and it seems to have resolved itself but I do not know what caused that.

I don't know if that is related to that particular wrasse but she looked absolutely perfect in death. She was fat, no marks at all, nothing obvious to the naked eye. The other wrasses I do think were all just cases of poor shipping. The fact that a meleagris wrasse was DOA from LA was a bit surprising to me. They were all skinny and several did the death circle swimming. So all of those I understood but as I have mentioned several times -- it is the last one that has me wondering. Why would an established fish -- years in another person's tank -- just last two weeks? Thats says something in the sand to me.

Did you test for ammonia during this die off? I think the fact that you had a large die off should be a major red flag here and would point to a water quality issue of some kind that contributed to the fish's death as opposed to the sand bed. I know there were other fish in the tank but this was a new fish that was probably still under some stress due to being recently introduced to a new environment and if there were any environmental quality issues that would only stress it further.

 

[iamwrasseman]

the kutieri is also quite delicate so i would stay away from them until you can get a basic leopard to survive so you dont waste you money .leopards do best in a very calm community tank and do not do well competing for food when they are newbies . was your wrasses just dead or did he have any wounds on his body ? also when you transport a fish in a bucket you have a fast temp drop and they can bash their mouths on the sides of the bucket when the freak out ,and they do .what are the other fish in your tank ?

 

[shinypenny]

I too would want to know a little more about why your corals were dying. We're into page 2 and no information on water parameters yet. Are you testing, and how do they look? Did you work out what caused the die off? Figuring that out would probably be the prudent thing to do, before buying meds or a starfish.

For what it's worth I think "Small alien" was as polite as anyone could be expected to be given your attitude posting. If a fish dies, it doesn't paint anyone as a responsible aquarist to just attribute it to 'luck' and carry on regardless. The fact that you turned your nose up at actually reading a thread dedicated to this fish shows a lack of commitment to providing a decent living environment for the creature. Now you're looking for some magic bullet med or creature to fix all your problems. In all the initial posts you never mentioned the coral die off, which should be an immediate red flag for anyone in this hobby.

Good luck finding whatever killed your corals. I'd recommend not getting another leopard wrasse until you do, as clearly even the most stable, mature, aquarium acclimatized fish of this species is having trouble in your current tank.

 

[Mental1]

Ca 460
Alk 9.5
Mg 1300
Ammonia 0
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Salinity 1.025
Temp 79

It might have been a change of bulbs that caused the problem. Maybe the coral outgrew its spot and started to die off. Not sure but it stopped, there was no spike, the fish was fine for at least 10 days after the coral had a problem.

iamwrassman -- the fish did not have any damage whatsoever, ate fine, and looked perfect until the day it died. The other fish in the tank are a rabbit, naked clown, bangaii, chevron, indian golden ring, scott's fairy wrasse, mandarin, mated neon gobies. No on was bothering her as she was fairly big. There was a small amount of chasing at the beginning as you would expect but for the last ten days she was part of the gang -- no problems.

Jay does not recommend meds on the food as the dosage is too difficult to control. He said he gave up on leopards 30 years ago because of the incidental mortality rate.

Shinypenny -- I will no longer feed the troll and the subject of rudeness is closed for me.

 

[iamwrasseman]

ten days ? i thought that you had said it died in the first night ,my mistake . your water looks great but seldom do you actually have zero nitrates as you do ,nice job . most leopards 80% die because of the collection and shipping process IMO .after that its the habitat that is key to success and it is very wise to introduce them directly to the display tank as they are so much more comfortable in a reef like setting and will do much better that way .then comes the water parameters as yours looks great .

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Jmo

Jmo

since kuiteri is one of the more sensitive Macropharyngodon species (and you haven't been having much luck with Leopard Wrasses) I'd skip it for now.

Try a healthy meleagris or bipartis. Make sure it's eating before you purchase it.

If you suspect the sand sifting star is causing problems it is very easy to remove.

What species of Macropharyngodon have you attempted so far?

 

[Mental1]

Dave, I am very attentive to my tanks. I do weekly water changes, I have a huge skimmer, I run carbon, gfo and biopellets. I have a fuge, a water changing tank and the whole system is about 360g. My local reef peeps consider me obsessive about what I do for my reefs. So despite accusation of negligence on my part as far as my husbandry skills go ... it simply is not true.

I have never had nitrates in this system. You see I took months before I even put any fish in it. I let it evolve very slowly. And I added rock from my other tank. So it has rock in it that has been reefing for 4 years.

The established wrasse was in the tank for two weeks before she died. I have no idea why and it was very unexpected. It was the others that died quickly.

Gary I do not have a sand sifting star in the tank -- I was thinking of adding one to work over the sand bed before adding another leopard. I have tried meleagris and bipartus but most died from shipping. Until I can figure out what happened to the one that came from a local reefer I will not try again. I thought that one was going to be a winner. So I am just trying to figure it out ... what happened? And what can I do as a preventive .. like a sand shifting star. Someone out there (LA?) has kuiteri listed as intermediate which is why I asked the question. Will not get one.

Oh -- and I have now read the whole primer thread as so many insisted -- it is great information but I am sorry folks -- there really wasn't anything there that was new to me. As I mentioned, I have been reading and talking to people about leopards since I first lost one several years ago.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

jmo

jmo

I don't think a sandsifting star will affect your luck with Leopards one way or another.
It's understandable if you choose to call it a day with Leopards.