let the insanity begin

Rick,

Very sorry to hear about your troubles, everything seemed to be doing so well for the first few months (once you got to the stocking phase :) ). Does it seem to have been a gradual thing i.e, maybe the waning light of winter. The only other thing that comes to mind is that maybe something with the water purification is leaching in at a small rate and building up.

Do they seem to be wasting away or just not flourishing. I would definitely agree with melev, although I wouldn't think it would this dramatically bad. I think I would try to get something biological into a test tank to see what happens. Probably try the LR before the fish, or maybe even one tank with each to see what the results would be.

I am not sure about the coating on the PVC theory. Unless it is an additive to the actual pvc that makes up the sheet I am pretty sure you would have eliminated most of it with your water changes after this much time. If it were in the sheet itself it could be something that is released as the sheet breaks down, but that is also a stretch as it won't oxidize or break down from UV into the tank only on the other side that is exposed.

Not sure if this has been any help, but my next couple of steps would be to try out some LR and fish in separate tanks, and see what sort of chemical reactions are happening in your water purification, especially in the Iron chamber and the Kait as those have the most potential to find something.

Good luck and keep at it,
 
Part of the issue (for me) is that every time i change something, it might take many weeks or even months before there is any noticeable change in the corals. By the time i try two or three things, six months has gone by. If none of the changes helped, the corals are then in survival mode rather than anything similar to health and growth, then almost any change is stressful to them.
Then there are always (at least here in my facility) bigger problems that arise which HAVE to be given priority.
About three weeks ago, one of those big Whitewater linear air pumps broke down. It was barely ten months old. I am currently running with one skimmer on each tank, so i should be grateful to have that.
I had a gas leak at the factory connection where the pilot gas tube connects to the gas valve on the furnace. The vibration of the furnace actually wore a slit into the soft aluminium pilot gas tube. I fixed that by taking the connector from the spare gas valve i bought last year and cutting the tube shorter to get rid of the worn section. Then yesterday, I started smelling propane again. There was a small pin hole in the pilot gas tube. I know i have created my own share of problems here, but i also seem to get more than my share of these "one in a million" problems.

David- haven't set up that glass 125 yet. still on the list of things to do. I've never really noticed if the pvc makes any sound with a finger. I'm at work right at the moment, but can try it when i get home. i'm not sure i would know what exactly to listen for. All of the sheet was covered in that thin plastic protective film and i did put that side for the insides of the tanks, if that means anything.

melev- I took all of the lux measurements this past summer. According to Dana, with a 30% shade cloth over the whole gh, and one layer of 50% window screen over the tank, and at 1' deep under the water, my readings were roughly equivalent to the reefs around Hawaii. some of my cloudy day readings were a little low (he thought) except for things like Actinodiscus, but given that the corals don't sit under cloudy skies with 30% shade plus 50% shade all of the time, should be sufficient. There are storms and cloudy days (yup, even in Hawaii :D ). He also realizes that as the sun gets lower in the sky, i start removing much of the shade for the tanks and the shade over the gh itself. He said he would like to see the UV cut-off around 390 nm instead of the 360 nm that I have, but he didn't think that would cause the results i am seeing. That was when I tried the acrylic panels over a few of the tanks like Actinodiscus, Anthelia, Star polyps.
the water temps are steady at 76 - 78 most of the year, it is just those weeks during the peak of summer when things start to creep upwards, but have never jumped more than about 4 degrees in one day. Waters around Fiji range from 68 to 86 throughout a year.
Salinity is always rock solid at 1.025 - 1.026 (refractometer).
HCS3 also thought putting some fish might help, as did several members of SLASH, when they came to visit. I know corals can use fish waste for nutrition, and I've been considering doing that. I agree that with the slow gradual decline, it is likely to be related to nutrition. I do wonder with all of the dino blooms I get, shouldn't there be enough nutrients already? Wouldn't the blooms get worse by adding more bioload?
As a clarification, there is no tank that drains into a prop tank. They are all separate tanks, and they are all "prop" tanks. The LR vat is also by itself and not connected to any tanks. With all of the tanks separate, that was what made me think more of something common to all tanks... lighting, water, pvc sheet.
I have always had some LR in each tank under the eggcrate, but the amount has been fairly low.... around 20 - 30 pounds in each tank. Just recently, i have been working on adding about another 50 pounds to each tank and have done so on 8 of the tanks. i wanted to get more rock in the tanks before adding any fish to the systems. I do have one tank with snails (the Lobophytum tank because Lobo is likely to take some phyto), but that tank is one of the worse looking ones as far as green/brown water and sediment/detritus collecting. That tank could probably receive weekly siphon cleaning despite addng a 2600 gph pump to flow across the bottom of the tank.

DKKA- i appreciate the suggestions. i am leaning towards doing just that, now that there is more rock in some of the tanks. i just get worried about adding more rock (nutrients) and fish (more nutrients) then needing to feed the fish (nutrients). Even if the fish are grazers, (and believe me, the rock in my vat is literally a mess of green stuff), i think even a small yellow tang will need more food than it can get from 70 - 80 pounds of rock, so there will be more food added to the tank(s).

soim34- heh, where there is a will, there is a way :D. i hope you know i really appreciated you being willing to visit and taking your time to help me out. It meant a lot to me.

Oblivionis- that is on my list of things to do. i have a glass 125 i got from MCLee that i plan to set up as a test.
 
raaden- thanks for popping in and offering help. you must have been posting while i was typing my post. i think i covered most of what you said in my reply. how is yours progressing?

there seems to be a period of time (maybe months) when i put a coral in the greenhouse where it does seemingly well (fooling me). after a couple of months, i might frag some part of it or just cut them into halves. the frags and parent both seem to do ok, but then a few more months down the road, i notice colors turning pale, no growth, shrinking in size, lack of showing polyps, shriveling, etc. There really seems to be no rhyme nor rhythym to their reactions.
As a guess, it seems like maybe the corals are surviving on stored nutrition, then reach a point where they have no more stores to live off of and start wasting. I have considered the water, but i can't imagine what it could be that would make it through the filtration and be harmful to corals. I use the exact same water in my home tanks for the past 2 years (or so).
 
Rick, I tend to agree with the others on nutrition. Softies (the majority of what your propping) enjoy nutrient filled waters. In my tank, back when I didnt feed much at all (.5 cube of frozen/day), my softies didnt grow hardly at all if any. I almost lost all of my zoos and did lose 3 species. My leathers essentially did NOTHING for about 5-6 months. Since feeding 2-3x as much, my softies have done a ton better. I suggest trying both fish and possibly getting some Reef Chili or similar to actually add some zoo plankton to the water.
 
Rick, sorry to hear you are still battling these ongoing problems. When I was reading your posts and from what I saw when I visited, I started thinking along the exact same lines as what Marc mentioned. I think your missing ingredient may very well be some fish and some more live rock. The fish will constantly feed the water with their wastes throughout the day. They will also help to control problematic algaes. I think some snails may also help to control algae and put some food into the water (although they may also create more detritus to siphon off the bottom). I would also think adding some more liverock would be beneficial for a couple reasons. The first would be the added zooplankton that would come from it. The second would be that it would help to biologically filter the water from the fish waste and any type of food you may be adding to the tank. And along with that, you would also have some extra biological filtration and possible some bacterial floc in the water column for corals to eat.

If it were me I would stick with strictly grazing fish. Maybe a bunch of yellow tangs. They are cheap and one of the few tangs that will eat pesty algaes like bryopsis. With 2-4 tangs per tank you probably won't have to feed much. I have a 75 gallon frag tank with a small yellow and small kole tang for algae control. This tank is plumbed to my main system so it gets nutrients from that. But I have yet to add any food for the 2 tangs and they have done just fine the past few months that I have had them. They keep everything nice and clean but still seem to have enough food to stay healthy.

If you are concerned that there could be something in your water, you could run some carbon and poly filters in each of the tanks for a few days just to rule that out.

The fact that corals seem to do good for a while initially in your tanks and then decline so gradually leads me to think it is most likely a lack of nutrition from food sources. The fact that you get algae blooms after adding any food could be from the small amount of live rock in the tanks and lack of herbivores. It could also be that you do not feed regularly so you do not have an established biological filter in the tank to handle the input of food. Feeding the same amount of food regularly would be better then feeding a little here or a little there just to experiment. Regular feedings that are of a similar amount will allow a biological filter to establish in the tank that can handle that input on a regular basis. I would guess that a tank that is not used to being fed would end up going through a cycle each time you feed if you do not feed regularly as the biological filter would need to re-establish itself each time.

These are just some guessess on things that might help. Not sure if they would or not. I sincerely hope you do get things figured out and things start doing better for you and this becomes a profitable endeavor. Thanks for keeping us updated and thanks for sharing everything from the good to the bad to the ugly.
 
well, i did hear back from Precision Punch and Plastics. they contacted Vycom (the mfg) and they are absolutely sure they dont have any types of additives used with their white pvc products. that should rule out the pvc as a possible source of trouble.

i appreciate all of the suggestions from everybody...as i always have. this time, i feel like an old teacher getting schooled by his pupils. :lol: i know most of what everybody is saying is true. maybe i've been focusing on the wrong ideas in trying to solve these issues.
 
Rick I had a propane tank leak outside that drafted into our bedrrom where my tank was. The skimmer pulled it in and it was a disaster. My dsb went dead. All the animals to make it live sand were dead. You would have a hard time seeing through you tanks but my sand changed colors, turned black in spots.
I can't remember Dr Rons response but it was something to the extent that the propane lowered the oxygen levels in the sand bed. I might be way off but it ruined my tank. I was very angry with Amerigas As they overfilled my tank and they shot gas up from the pressure release valve into upstairs windows.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8539790#post8539790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rick rottet
i'm starting to wonder if there wasn't some sort of coating (or something) on/in the pvc sheet. it's probably a stretch, but i am in the process of communiczting with company that sent me the sheet to see if they can contact the mfg and find out.
.

WOW what a bummer. First let me say that I for one very much appreciate your sharing this incredible thread about your very challenging project. I also think it is awesome that you share your difficulties, we can all learn from your challenges and hopefully someone out there has some productive input.

That being said I have to say I wish I could help, man I feel for ya.

One thing that hit me as well as I was re-reading this (my favorite thread) for the third time; was a concern of the off-gassing of the plastic (it does and sometimes in considerable quantities but I'm not sure if it is harmful or inert) and the potential for contamination from the evaporative media or the propane fired unit heater.

I do know that there is an oil coating on the surface of the propane heat exchanger but it usually burns off after the first three or four firings. But some of the oil could have dripped into areas of the exchanger that does not reach it's operating heat level and only off-gasses gradually as it is warmed. BUT it has been summer and you probably haven't been using it that much.

ALSO, there is a waxy coating on the surface of the evaporative media of your cooling system. Warmer days could have caused that wax to reach a level that it causes some off-gassing and that could have become airborne.

QUESTION: how are the plants outside of the tanks doing? And a dumb question, any chance of pesticides from within the greenhouse or from the neighboring farmer's field getting into your cooling system?

I share this speculation not to add to the confusion and stress but to hopefully help you in the brainstorming process of isolating the culprit causing your woes.

Best of luck to you, this is a monstrous undertaking and I admire your work. From what I can gather about your tenacity, you will overcome this issue and be the better man for it.

Godspeed brother!
 
Rick,
We all become the student at some point... come to think of it that is probably why we are in this hobby in the first place :D .

A couple of things that have been bouncing around my head are:

I don't think the problems are UV related. I would think that you would have seen some signs of burning or other maladies that come from over lighting... similar to what you had prior to shading the tanks. UV burning wouldn't really lead to wasting as you are decribing it.

I also agree that it is probably not a water quality or temp issue, if you can keep them alive for a couple of months they must be adjusting fairly well initially. Quality and temp issues tend to show themselves fairly quickly, unless like cuby said it is something that is leaching.

Are you still keeping species tanks... i.e. could it be a biological warfare kind of thing. Probably not as that would show fairly quickly as well.

The more I think about it the more it seems to be a nutrient issue. Part of this is that we just don't know very much about reef nutrition in an artificial environment with natural lighting. There may be something missing that the corals just can't do without... Like Food (hint hint)

My setup... well I had to put off construction until late Feb due to some... ahem greenhouse supplier issues (don't get me started on this one). I am looking to finish construction by mid March and get livestock in just as the thaw hits. Hoping to minimize the expenses by having as few heating days as possible. I just didn't want to heat an almost empty greenhouse for the winter. BTW what do your heating costs look like at this point. I am still trying to nail down some solid numbers on that.

Just remember a business is an adventure, and if there is no tough times in the adventure then the memories are not as sweet... are you buying any of this ;)
 
Hello from Chicago
How long did you let the piping set up/vent VOC's before filling the systems, did you rinse them with fresh water first. Alan LaPointe (Shedd) related a problem they had with a new system that was not rinsed /flushed clean of VOC's, and they were met with nothing but death and troubles. They sent out some water samples to be tested that confirmed his suspicions, the system was drained flushed and refilled with new IO with good results. It seams that their isn't an effective way to remove large quantities of VOC's from water...HTH
 
Fascinating stuff Rick, and very well presented. I just discovered this thread as well, and I've been taking notes. I've read a few greenhouse and coral propagation books, but the practical information you have provided answers many of the real questions I've had.

I live in the country and have been planning/dreaming of building a greenhouse for coral propagation for years. I have a treed lot and would have to consider sacrificing some forest to save the reef. I picked up a Milwaukee lux meter this spring and have been taking light measurements around my property. How much sunlight, and for how many hours, do you think I need for LPS and SPS respectively?

I'm located near Toronto, Canada, so my climate should be about the same as yours.
 
It appears that you may have several unrelated problems that are inhibiting your success. Hopefully these suggestions will be of some assistance.

You didn't give a lot of details with regard to your fragmenting methodology, but I may have missed it in this epic thread. Do you use oxidizing gents or antibiotics after taking cuttings? Do you segregate damaged/diseased corals and sterilize & sharpen your instruments? A stock solution of potassium permanganate can be used for swabbing infected areas, dips, sterilizing instruments, increasing dissolved oxygen & redox, and neutralizing chemicals & medications in your tanks (turning your hands brown is fun too).

Losing an entire tank of ricordia sounds more like a bacterial infection, than a water quality or lighting issue. I find chloramphenical and neomycin (in concert) to be a good catch-all regimen. Give infected corals a one hour bath in 250Mg/gallon (of each) for one hour. This elevated dose will kill a broad spectrum of bacteria and fungus without jeopardizing water quality in the holding tanks. Chloramphenical can be hard to track down in some states, but neomycin is cheap and readily available at a farm co-op store. It's used for pigs and turkeys.

While I'm against the over-use of antibiotics in human and animal use, corals are a different story. You are fighting bacteria and pathogens that are from the ocean and (hopefully) have never been exposed to antibiotics, and subsequently have no resistance. In the long run you may have to rotate the type of antibiotics you use to avoid resistant strains within your facility. Furan based drugs like furanace, nitrofurazone and (my favourite) nifurpirinol will come in handy in that event. Make sure you aren't using oxidizing agents at the same time as the antibiotics (I know...you're an RN, but I'm assuming nothing).

Another good practice for disease control, water quality & clarity is ozonation. Overkill is not an issue as you're dosing plankton from culture vessels on a regular basis, thus replacing anything that may get zapped. An ozonizer could be used for a few hours daily. It could be plumbed into your blower effluent so it would supply all of your airlines. It could be set-up on a timer to avoid overkill and residual ozone. I would install a sniffer (detector) for your own safety. Using it at night would also avoid exposure and raise nighttime PH.

You mentioned "cutting a sarcophyton in half" in one of your posts. This is an overly invasive cloning method. It will yield large clones, but the mother colony will require too much downtime to heal. You may also consider keeping healthy mother colonies in one tank and freshly cut mothers in a convalescent tank. This will limit stress and water quality issues that will inhibit the growth and health of the whole colony.

The true issue I see here is a lack of pro-biotics, rather than antibiotics. You're holding tanks appear to be very clinical. I don't see much of a substrate, live rock, algae or critters growing on your eggcrate. Corals never thrive in such conditions. I've visited many hobbyist reef tanks and have noticed that coral growth is always better in their display tank than it is in their culture tanks.

I see your method to be parallel to hydroponic plant growers. You're trying to harness nature and provide only the necessities (calcium, magnesium, carbonates, sunlight, zooplankton, phytoplankton etc.). This method works for hydroponic growers as they only raise their stock for a matter of months, not years. They can push the margin, knowing that it's a finite growth period. Corals on the other hand will experience growing pains.

A higher order ecosystem is the key to success. You've strayed too far from natures recipe, and need to reframe your approach. You can achieve this by adding a reverse photoperiod refugium to each tank. Place a shallow rubbermaid container under your stands and illuminate them at night with economical daylight twist bulbs. Shield the containers from daylight. You can run these refugia on a modest powerhead return and standpipe. You may even be able to power them with a solar battery system, as the prices and quality of these units are getting better all the time. The standpipe will aid in gas exchange as an added bonus. A reverse photoperiod will eliminate the coral bleaching PH shifts you likely have at night.

In addition to regulating gas exchange, macro algae will foster the growth of zooplankton, export nutrients, has antibacterial properties, and can be harvested and sold. Gracilaria and chaetomorpha are efficient, stable and marketable varieties to work with. Macro algae culture will also supply Co2 during the day for symbiotic zooxanthellae, eliminating your need for fish in the system. While fish can add nutrients to your tanks, these are phosphate, nitrate, and silicates than can be supplied through phytoplankton and zooplankton feeding.

Gas exchange may or may not be an issue. It's hard to judge your flow dynamics as the airlifts are shut off in the pictures. The addition of a standpipe drain for the refugium will remove surfactants and help with gas exchange nonetheless.

How much substrate, if any, do you have? This is another key part of the equation for filtration, buffering, and fostering greater biodiversity (zooplankton & water polishing benthic invertebrates such as sponges, worms, and tunicates).

You're missing the boat on passive live rock mariculture. You've got more than enough room in those tanks for live rock. Live rock will stabilize nitrification and denitrification, with a marketable residual. Use 50% colonized rock with 50% new rock. Harvest the older half every six to nine months (FIFO), once it is covered in coraline algae and stray polyps.

Your tanks don't appear to have any of the typical signs of healthy conditions such as coraline growth and benthic invertebrates. If I followed your post correctly, you've only been running for 14 months. That's not enough time to stabilize a relatively bare tank that has had little inoculation, and likely no chemical assistance with "cycling" (i.e.. ammonium chloride & sodium nitrate). I find that fully equipped and stocked reef tanks take at least six to nine months before coral growth is significant and benthic invertebrates populate the undersides of corals and eggcrate. Do you have a large population of serpulid worms in your substrate yet? You may be trying to run before you can walk. I know 4 1/2 years is a long time for this project, but it takes as long as it takes when you're establishing your tanks.

When corals are kept in an incomplete ecosystem with an insufficient supply of phyto and zooplankton, they must rely on symbiotic algae for nutrients (carbohydrates). This steady diet of sugars is taxing on their health and colours are diminished. Many greenhouse corals have a brown layer of zooxanthellae that obscures the fluorescent UV blocking pigments below. Once your corals are moved to a hobbyist tank with less light and more plankton, the brown colour dissipates, revealing the intense underlying colours (as you reported in one of your posts).

Rather than spending your resources on water changes, you should focus your efforts on nitrate & phosphate reducing organisms, nutrient export and exchange resins. You could use barrels buried beneath your greenhouse for bulk denitrification and buffering. Water changes are not cost effective as they and are limited to temporary reduction of excess nutrients, in only a small percentage of the water volume. i.e.. a 20 % water change will reduce organics by 20%.

Recent studies, tracking the quality of salt mixes and content of existing aquarium water, have proven that you may be adding more heavy metals than what is found in natural sea water. Nutrient import brings with it many trace elements (heavy metals). Water changes may add further to this problem. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php

You may also benefit from the use of coral cleaning symbients, such as shrimp, starfish, crabs and fish. Many fish and invertebrates consume dead coral tissue. Tangs and even butterflies can be moved from tank to tank to remove sloughing tissue, fungus and necrosis.

Your protein skimmers may also need some upgrading to help with nutrient export. Commercial mariculture requires significant nutrient import and subsequent export. I assume you have culture containers for phytoplankton, copepods, mysid shrimp, anthropods, and brine shrimp? You may be able to set-up a system whereby nutrient rich water can be dosed into the tank and exchanged with "clean" water for the majority of the day. This practice would yield maximum exposure to foodstuffs during feeding hours (perhaps at night) while maintaining water quality. You could use an ebb & flow system incorporating barrels buried below the tanks.

What kind of a buffering system are you using? You may have ion antagonism if you are using an imbalanced chemical regimen. The practice of dosing calcium hydroxide without balancing magnesium and carbonates will introduce free radicals that will wreak havoc on water chemistry and coral health. Calcium carbonate, gluconate, or chloride can be used in conjunction with calcium hydroxide in order to balance leftover negative ions (anions). Ion exchange resins like Chemipure will help, but they aren't viable in commercial mariculture applications. Sponsorship and endorsements go a long way. Try to build symbiotic relationships with manufacturers and distributors.

You must have an incredible amount of evaporation each day. Did you have 0 TDS during the de-ionizer incident? Even a minute amount of minerals in your source water would have a great effect on coral health if you have significant evaporation. I don't know what kind top-off system you use, but DI water will quickly leach VOC's from plastics and draw gasses out of the air.

If you were to use aragonite (calcium carbonate), dolomite (calcium magnesium carbonate, and celestite (strontium sulphate) in your source water reservoir, you would be able to stabilize the ion-hungry water and remineralize it at the same time. The leftover sulphate anions (from the celestite) would be utilized as a nutrient source by denitrifying bacteria. A freshwater-style Co2 reactor could be used to lower the PH in the reservoir to aid in dissolution of the media. A second reservoir with an airlift and media should be used to buffer the PH and aerate the remineralized water. A holding tank with significant evaporation will stay cool, and receive enough remineralized top-up water to exclude the use of traditional calcium reactors and chemical dosing. Such a system is ionically balanced, addresses the chief deficits (calcium, carbonates, magnesium, strontium, and sulphur), and is cheap & easy to run.
 
mr.wilson, you really should post more often. You've just said a mouthful, and while much of it is over my head it also sounds quite reasonable to me.

I bet it'll help Rick turn things around.
 
Mr. Wilson,

Excellent posts, you are definitely well on your way to getting your dream to be a reality. I do agree with just about everything you mention.

I have a question for you... You reccommend the use of antibiotics for new cuttings especially. Was this mostly because of the sterility in Ricks current system or do you feel this should be done for any type of large scale propogation. My concerns are twofold, as I am working on a system of this type as well. I am not a medical professional and will probably not come across very well in my questions so please excuse me.

1. Is this something that should be done only at the beginning as the system matures or do you anticipate doing this as an ongoing thing.

2. Do you think that doing this long term would cause any tangible affects to both the propogators system or to the products/hobbyists systems. Especially when considering that propogated pieces will be exposed to wild caught specimens once in others display systems. My main concern is for the long term survivability of the products that I will be providing. My main fear is that the propogated corals will not develop effective personal defenses against these things.

When I spoke with a few people at the Ag extension offices around me (North Carolina), they recommended doing research into this sort of thing, but I could not find any studies or reproducible results that I could use. It quickly fell off my plate and I have not revisited the subject so any information you or others can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Once again Mr. Wilson very good responses and I look forward to hearing more from you.
 
I really feel Ricks' pain, and would like to help. The toughest part about reading this epic thread over a few days, was watching his decline in enthusiasm. He went from several post per day, often at 4:00 in the morning, to MIA.

If my aquarium journey is leading me to greenhouse mariculture, I should try to help brave pioneers/ginnypigs like Rick, so I can learn from their mistakes. There are so many limiting factors in this kind of undertaking, and it only takes one weak link to bring it all crashing down. I'm still learning myself, and enjoy posting here at RC.

I'm active with my local forum (www.aquariumpros.ca), and some of you may have seen me in the video on www.reefvideos.com. I'm saving up to become a sponsor here at RC in the new year. My biggest concern is that I'm not sure how much traffic my threads would see in a sponsor forum. Do you guys look there?

The "Moby Dick" of my aquarium career was a 30,000 gallon wholesale facility. It was my ball & chain for eight years. If I knew then what I know now...hell it would still be tough. By necessity, I learned a great deal about fish and invertebrate health. Medications can be your best friend or worst enemy. You have to make sure you don't get in the habit of shotgun prophylactic treatments. Save medications for diagnosed ailments. In Ricks case, with tissue necrosis, antibiotics are required. If all is going well, antibiotics would be better used on new arrivals. Oxidizing agents/disinfectants like potassium permanganate, iodine, potassium dichromate, sodium peroxide, and mercurochrome can be used at any point in time, with no resistance concerns.

There are lots of viable medications out there, but they all have their specific applications and abilities. Sulphur-based drugs like Mardels' Trisulfa and Furan-based drugs like Nifurpirinol are effective against fungal infections like zoanthid fungus. The term RTN is misleading, as it is a symptom, not a disease. Some other effective antibiotics for marine use are kanamycin, oxolinic acid, and oxytetracycline. Many of these are available through fishroom supply houses or farm co-ops. In general the aquarium dose is 250mg/10 gallons, but they are far more effective and safe if used in a 20 minute - 1 hour bath at 4 to 10 times the regular dose. Every antibiotic and organism has their own unique properties and tolerances. You need to do some experimenting before you treat a whole bunch of corals at once.

Bacteria can mutate and evolve to be immune to specific antibiotics. Bacteria can even learn to utilize the antibiotic as a nutrient source, once it has become immune to it. Bacterial mutation problems are common in the freshwater fish industry, as generations of guppies are soaked in a nitrofurazone bath by breeders, wholesalers and retailers. Super-bacteria are developed, and the end user no longer has the ability to use common antibiotics, due to resistance. Coral farming is different, as this is the first time your corals and bacteria have been exposed to antibiotics. From time to time, you may need to bleach some of the holding tanks and start fresh to eliminate pathogens, but only in the case of serious RTN and wipeouts.

In researching greenhouse mariculture, I spent a bit of time cross-training by visiting fish farms and terrestrial plant growers. You can learn a lot from their parallel operations. Successful plant cultivators are meticulous in cleaning their instruments and treating and isolating disease. Many of the diseases that plague coral farms are spread by human contact rather than waterborne transmission. Aquarium hobbyists look at water quality and chemistry when a problem arises. These are stress factors, but not the true cause of mortality.

Another issue that I forgot to mention in my previous post is the allelopathy (chemical warfare) that is played out by corals. All corals and algae have toxic allelopathic agents that inhibit the growth of competing organisms. Colonial polyps, mushrooms, and leather corals pose the greatest threat. Their lack of stinging sweeper tentacles, is more than made up by invisible toxins. In the ocean, this defense mechanism is intended to discourage immediate neighbours from taking over. In the ocean, these chemicals are quickly diluted and drift off into the abyss. In closed systems, these chemicals linger and discourage polyps from opening, causing a slow, seemingly unexplainable death. Freshly cut mother colonies are in defense mode, so toxin levels will spike significantly.

The use of carbon and polymeric absorbents, such as Polyfilters by Polybiomarine, will remove these toxins. Protein skimming and ozone are also effective, but segregation is the best solution. Allelopathic toxins do not effect organisms of the same species (conspecifics).

Hopefully some of these ideas push Rick in the right direction. As he mentioned, it's difficut to change one parameter at a time and measure success. Most of my suggestions are relatively inexpensive, and can be implemented concurrently. Getting things working is more important than isolating the weakest link at this point in time.
 
Mr Wilson.

Where can we contact you or where can we research your experience from other old threads about your operation "Moby Dick"
I am establishing the first wholesale operation in Ireland and I am sure some of your experiences could help me out A LOT. I am getting my first shipment this friday of 1000kg of live rock - now I know this will be easy enough but i plan on shipping in clen up crew, inverts and coral very shortly.
Is there a link to some threads you have that will allow me to investigate more of your experiences?

Thanks in advance O B 1 Knoby.

Andrew
 
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