let the insanity begin

You're not hijacking at all. I welcome the input from folks like you, H2OENG, tschopp, and anyone else that feels they can contribute. (so many people have contributed info in this thread, I feel neglectful by only mentioning a few names). All of this info is helpful to me and hopefully will give folks like gpajohn, scubadude and treeman some new ideas to kick around. It also makes good archive material.

Skimmers are rockin'. Live rock has been through the ammonia peak and was at 0 last night. (8 days) Nitrite is still above 5 and nitrate has been measurable and climbing for a couple of days. There is about 300 gallons of water from the DI system salted and ready so I can do some water changes. Diatoms started appearing yesterday too. All seems as it should be.
The RO units arrived as well but I'm still waiting on a bunch of John Guest fittings to tie it all together.
 
I can't believe I didn't remember this.............
A few years ago when I was doing custom set ups and maintenance I had a client with a water cooled chiller. It had two separate chambers. One chamber housed the titanium coil for the tank water, and the other housed the copper coil for the hot refrigerant. The refrigerant was cooled with regualr tap water that ran from a nearby sink to the chamber and right back to the drain (waste of water but it worked well).
My brain hurts... LOL
Looks Like I have some work to do.
 
I don't claim to have any great knowledge of these cooling mechanics but here is my feeble attempt to help.

Would the compressor be thermostatic?
Would refridgerant flow through the compressor even if the compressor wasn't running?
If so, it seems to me that when the tank water was above your desired temp, the compressor would be running and cooling the tank water. If the tank water drops, the compressor shuts off but warm(er) refridgerant still flows to heat the tank water.
Then it wouldn't have to be reversed, just controlled by a thermostat.
????????????????????????????
If the refridgerant doesn't flow when the compressor isn't running, could there be a bypass pump to pump the refridgerant to warm the tank water? (or have the geothermal loop warm the tank water from it's pump?)
Hope one of the experts jump in here for you.
 
Dude at this point you know as much if not more than I do :confused:

I would use a controller for sure. This far south I am not too worried about the heating cause it doesn't stay cold long down here, but if it can be done with one system then I need to know how. Experts don't everyone jump all at once :lol:
 
To do what you want your system to do (heating & cooling), you will want a heat pump. Thats is a system that essentially runs in reverse - the compressor still turns the same direction, but there is a 4-way valve (and perhaps a different expansion valve) that sends the refrigerant to the opposite system components. It switches the evaporator and condenser (hot and cold sides). You can find these in systems larger than 3 tons with no problem (I haven't seen any window sized HPs, but perhaps on a higher end model you can find one?) and heat pumps are very popular in the south. A residental system could be modified easily with a titanium coil on the aquarium side and a liquid-refrigerant heat exchanger to complete your design for the ground loop side (instead of the buried barrel). I saw a titanium HX on ebay for around $200, perhaps one on each side would complete the design. Then just have your local HVAC tech or local tech college complete the construction.

There are also thermosiphons (heat pipe), which Rick was alluding to in his post, in which there is no compressor and the refrigerant tries to make the same temperature in both components. They work through capillary action - or you can add a pump. Don't use this until you have a better understanding of what happens as there are alot of "snakeoil salesmen" out there. However, in some applications, they do work perfectly.
 
Since I posted the diagram I have been doing some research and I think it's doable. I have to wait for my brother in law who just happens to be a tech. but I think it might just work. If not........... well I am used to things not working out so it would just be one more for my collection of failed ideas.
 
I have a large pond beside my greenhouse. I notice that in the summer months when I swim there, that the water down deeper in the pond is VERY cold.

Since this seems like a good place to tap into for cooling needs, would it be better to just pump water out of the bottom of the pond, and have a return line going back, or would it be better to run a closed loop and coil alot of pipe in the pond?

I know that the first idea would be much, much easier, and I can't see how the second idea could be more efficient, but I thought I would post this to see what others thought.

Also I noticed someone talking about 5K for a chiller... Wouldn't it be better, (if you have the room) to dig a pond? Although the swimming pool idea is similiar. Just my .02
 
indianafishkeeper said:
I have a large pond beside my greenhouse. I notice that in the summer months when I swim there, that the water down deeper in the pond is VERY cold.

Since this seems like a good place to tap into for cooling needs, would it be better to just pump water out of the bottom of the pond, and have a return line going back, or would it be better to run a closed loop and coil alot of pipe in the pond?

I know that the first idea would be much, much easier, and I can't see how the second idea could be more efficient, but I thought I would post this to see what others thought.

Also I noticed someone talking about 5K for a chiller... Wouldn't it be better, (if you have the room) to dig a pond? Although the swimming pool idea is similiar. Just my .02
Click to expand...

the major benefit you have with closed loop, is just that. you control everything in that pipe.

with an open ended system, you would get the colder water, however you will also get bacteria, and small organisms in your pipe. you would have to flush that system pretty regularly....

it also brings contaminents into close proximity of your tanks(pesticide runoff, unwanted bacterium, sludge, etc.)
 
i second the closed loop into the pond.. just loop it a bunch with as thin and conductive of pipe as you feel safe on sadly pvc acts as an insulator to some degree
 
i second the closed loop into the pond.. just loop it a bunch with as thin and conductive of pipe as you feel safe on sadly pvc acts as an insulator to some degree
 
boxer85 said:
the major benefit you have with closed loop, is just that. you control everything in that pipe.

it also brings contaminents into close proximity of your tanks(pesticide runoff, unwanted bacterium, sludge, etc.)
Click to expand...

I would expect pvc to be permiable to many pesticides. I found this out when looking into the requirements of a chem weapons sensor sample line. So if you have a pvc closed loop that runs between the tank and a lake, the tank concentration of pesticide could come into equilibrium with the lake. I don't know if lake or groundwater concentrations of pesticide would be high enough to be of concern. Just thought I would point out that pvc is not really a barrier for many nasty chemicals.

Teflon would be a good choice for the part of the loop in contact with tank water. I would think poly-elthylene would also be a good choice that might be a bit cheaper.
 
seldon said:
how would you get teflon coated tubing? What would be an example of poly-ethylene?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm interested in that answer too...

As far as there being alot of pesticides, the answer would probably be "yes". The whole area is surrounded by farm land except on the north side, where there is a massive ditch(coming through more farm land) and a small patch of woods.

However, I think that if I brought the water up from the pond, and put it into a covered holding tank beside the greenhouse, or possibly in the back corner of the GH, then I could run a closed loop through that tank. I could be wrong(and if I am, please tell me :) ) but I don't think that would hurt anything.

Also I could bury the holding tank in the ground, something like treeman did, and since it wouldn't be holding tank water, I think the material I made it out of wouldn't be that critical. I could probably just dig me a hole and pour a concrete tank in the ground. That way the ground temperature would help keep the water brought from the pond cold.


P.S. On a side note, I've been talking to some LFS's to see about selling coral to them, and one of them is getting ready to build their own GH. The GH is going to be built on top of a natural gas reserve, and he has it in the plans to get a natural gas generator, so he can produce 100% power for everything he requires from the natural gas. I say what a lucky guy to be sitting on a gas reserve... Cheap power could equal cheaper coral and more sales for him.
 
P.S. On a side note, I've been talking to some LFS's to see about selling coral to them, and one of them is getting ready to build their own GH. The GH is going to be built on top of a natural gas reserve, and he has it in the plans to get a natural gas generator, so he can produce 100% power for everything he requires from the natural gas. I say what a lucky guy to be sitting on a gas reserve... Cheap power could equal cheaper coral and more sales for him. /QUOTE]


How big of a bulkhead do you need to get to put it on
a natural gas reserve? Guessing it would be Schedule
80, you sure don't want any leaks.

:)
Lowell
Click to expand...
 
based on what tschopp said, you will need to use some sort of non-pvc piping whereever your loop is in contact with the pond water.

even if you pipe the pond water to a holding tank, you will still retain all pesticides that were originally in the pond in your holding tank. if you use pvc from your holding tank to your propagation tank, you will then be transferring the pesticides through pvc and into your prop tank.

i would suspesct this would be an issue with pool chemcials as well
 
Can the water from the system not be pumped through tubing submerged in the pond? Are you saying that pesticides will leach through the tubing itself, and pollute the saltwater?

And yes, I've been reading the posts. ;)

Here's another idea, that may or may not work at all.

Take a medium sized container, and place it inside a larger container. Pump pond water into the container and back out to the pond non-stop. The inside container would hold the saltwater from the system via another closed loop. The outer jacket will cool the inner container.

With a thermostat, it could cycle the closed loop to the pond or even the closed loop to the tanks, to avoid cooling too much.
 
melev - That is basically what I was talking about doing with the holding tank. I was going to pump water from the pond into the tank, and have an overflow back to the pond. The pump for this would be on a thermostat and would only pump the water when the water in the tank started getting warm. I figure covering this tank, and burying it in the ground will help keep the water nice and cool.

Now the prop tanks would have a closed loop running through them into the pond water holding tank. Based on what has been said, this will not be pvc. The pump for this loop will also be on a thermostat, so I make the most efficient use of energy.
 
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