let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
matt the fiddler
New member
you could do the combo of the1/2 way down 90s around the edge, with 1 going across the tank every 2-3 feet or so.. make all of them into the eggcrate racks as mentioned above, and then you also have more growth room.. put some less high light needy corals below, and higher light corals on the top shelf.. unless you are stocking heavier than is healthy for the corals, enough light would get through to make the bottom level a 2nd grow out level - and the eggcrate would help keep the light intensity
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
melev- that is white pvc rigid sheet. I had considered a flange at one point, many of the poly plastic fabricators I spoke to were planning on constructing tanks that way and I have seen many web sites of square or rectangle tanks with flanges. A couple of concerns for me would be; 1) How much strength do they really add? 2) How wide do they need to be 3) Shadows.
Calfo always tells me not to worry about shadows because most corals will be grown in the top 10-14" of the water anyway, but maybe I'm just a little paranoid about it.
scubadude- I have seen those tanks and considered them. For me, they are too shallow. I would have to have some sort of remote vessel for the live rock. I think they would make a good rubble trough or raceway for growout of small(er) frags if plumbed into a larger system but I plan on having monospecific tanks.
That is a good tip to check if the original supplier would have some scraps, then I could cut them to fit (or glue pieces together if shorter).
tschopp- Henry had the same concern about a glue joint being 1/4" and I have the same concern too. That's why I planned the wood frames to hold the tanks, only now it just takes up too much room. Henry showed me a link to some angled 90 degree pvc to reinforce the joints. At the time, I think it was going to be about another $35 per tank to run the stuff on each joint X 20 tanks. You think the angled pieces used as a flange would be enough? Pointing them away from the water or submerged might be a decent plan if it would be strong enough. Would it be better/ stronger to run cross braces submerged in the water.
I wondered about those corner braces, I had seen some 8' glass tanks open top with just corner braces. Didn't know if the same would apply to plastic or not.
Calfo always tells me not to worry about shadows because most corals will be grown in the top 10-14" of the water anyway, but maybe I'm just a little paranoid about it.
scubadude- I have seen those tanks and considered them. For me, they are too shallow. I would have to have some sort of remote vessel for the live rock. I think they would make a good rubble trough or raceway for growout of small(er) frags if plumbed into a larger system but I plan on having monospecific tanks.
That is a good tip to check if the original supplier would have some scraps, then I could cut them to fit (or glue pieces together if shorter).
Great minds think alike.
tschopp- Henry had the same concern about a glue joint being 1/4" and I have the same concern too. That's why I planned the wood frames to hold the tanks, only now it just takes up too much room. Henry showed me a link to some angled 90 degree pvc to reinforce the joints. At the time, I think it was going to be about another $35 per tank to run the stuff on each joint X 20 tanks. You think the angled pieces used as a flange would be enough? Pointing them away from the water or submerged might be a decent plan if it would be strong enough. Would it be better/ stronger to run cross braces submerged in the water.
I wondered about those corner braces, I had seen some 8' glass tanks open top with just corner braces. Didn't know if the same would apply to plastic or not.
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rick rottet said:
The corner braces help keep the corner joint from coming apart, but do not help much with boing in the middle.
All things equal deflection in a beam goes as length^3. So your 7' tank with no x-brace will need 8x more edge support than a tank with a single brace in the middle. If you put in 2 x-braces you only need 1/27 the support as the all open tank. I am not sure what would be strong enough off the top of my head. My gut would say that a flange of 1" - 1.5" x 1/4" at the top with no x-brace would not be enough. Might be OK since the pvc will bend and be fine.
I would think 90s for a shelf 1/2 way down w/ 2 x-braces would be fine with no additional support at the top. Again just my guess.
This can be calculated, it would take some time to look up the properties for pvc and the equations. Might be easier to get some corner material, make a tank and see how it does. IF it bows too much as you are filling it, stop and think about additional support. When you are happy with the first make the other 19.
I just remember that when I did the calcs for my tank I was not even close to being able to do 8' with no x brace, but I wanted the frame to be able to handle the load without forcing the glass to resist the bowing ( if that makes any sence).
melev
Well-known member
Okay, on my sumps, I use 2" flanges. It is a solid piece that is routed out to leave a nice continuous piece on the top of the sump. My sumps are normally 1/4" and I keep the height at 16" tall in most cases. No bowing is obvious, but I have internal baffles that create different compartments (skimmer, return, refugium, bubble trap).
You shouldn't have shadow issues as the lights are centered over the tank, and shine outward from a focal point. My 280g reef tank has a 4" flange (brick style tank) and there aren't any shadows with my 3 bulb MH setup & VHO supplementation.
However, I think it is great advice to build a tank and fill it with water to see how it swells to decide where adjustments need to be made. Cross braces might be necessary. You can route out the top so that there are several openings, although they can get in the way when working in the tank. Here's a sump with cross braces. http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/h/sump_model_h.html
To reinforce the corners, perhaps you can use 1/4" steel angle iron to hug the tank corners. If they are very snug, the pressure at the corners would be greatly reduced.
Also, be sure to put a sheet of rigid foam insulation under each tank to avoid any pressure points. 4' x 8' sheets of pink foam (1/2" or 1" thick) are available at Home Depot for about $10 a sheet. I always recommend a piece be put under the sump I build.
You shouldn't have shadow issues as the lights are centered over the tank, and shine outward from a focal point. My 280g reef tank has a 4" flange (brick style tank) and there aren't any shadows with my 3 bulb MH setup & VHO supplementation.
However, I think it is great advice to build a tank and fill it with water to see how it swells to decide where adjustments need to be made. Cross braces might be necessary. You can route out the top so that there are several openings, although they can get in the way when working in the tank. Here's a sump with cross braces. http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/h/sump_model_h.html
To reinforce the corners, perhaps you can use 1/4" steel angle iron to hug the tank corners. If they are very snug, the pressure at the corners would be greatly reduced.
Also, be sure to put a sheet of rigid foam insulation under each tank to avoid any pressure points. 4' x 8' sheets of pink foam (1/2" or 1" thick) are available at Home Depot for about $10 a sheet. I always recommend a piece be put under the sump I build.
matt the fiddler
New member
"You shouldn't have shadow issues as the lights are centered over the tank"
he is using the sun.. the sun will move....
have you though about using reflective metal like polished aluminum sheets to reflect more sun into the tanks? 12-20 inches up -- possibly with the top angled a little away from the tank and the bottom directly next to the top of the tank--- would do a lot.
you could even get creative to have them raise and lower in time so it does not block the light the half of the day that the sun is behind the reflector!
he is using the sun.. the sun will move....
have you though about using reflective metal like polished aluminum sheets to reflect more sun into the tanks? 12-20 inches up -- possibly with the top angled a little away from the tank and the bottom directly next to the top of the tank--- would do a lot.
you could even get creative to have them raise and lower in time so it does not block the light the half of the day that the sun is behind the reflector!
matt the fiddler
New member
yeppers.. you don't think he is in a green house because he likes the look of sunlight! i still think it is worth trying.
if he is using the bottom only for LR and stuff [eggcrated frags on top.. at the same level as the ridge], then it won't matter if it creates a little shadow...
i still think it is worth trying.if he is using the bottom only for LR and stuff [eggcrated frags on top.. at the same level as the ridge], then it won't matter if it creates a little shadow...
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
matt- My plan is to have only one species per tank, so there won't be less light needy corals in the same tank as high(er) light needy corals. A reflective sheet would help put light into the tank and compensate for any shadows, but there will be two tanks on each stand so the tanks that would be on the north side of the stands would be blocked from the light. The greenhouse sits with it's length running north-south, so the tanks will sit with their length running east-west. i suppose something like that could be put on the short sides as well, but like you said, it would have to be able to move up/ down with the passing of the sun, I don't want to have to worry about going out there at certain times every day and moving panels by hand.
Do you guys think I should put a sheet of plywood down on the joists of the stand? I was wondering if the pvc would create hills and valleys between the joists. The load would be spread out across 7' and the joists are 13" apart. If a plywood base is used, would the foam still be needed/ recomended?
Do you guys think I should put a sheet of plywood down on the joists of the stand? I was wondering if the pvc would create hills and valleys between the joists. The load would be spread out across 7' and the joists are 13" apart. If a plywood base is used, would the foam still be needed/ recomended?
LegoZ81
New member
I would factor in the cost, most likely though IMHO it would be worth the reassurance. Since you are going with a opaque tank anyway why not build a 5 sided plywood box (no top) and sit the PVC tank down in that to prevent any bowing. If needed you can build a 2x4 frame that wraps around the box for extra support. Personnally I can not see 1/4" PVC being very rigid in that large of a sheet :O
BUT... I have never worked with it either. Some words of wisdom though I have seen a pools seem split due to the incorrect installation of the washer on the bolts (wrong side) the nuts torn thru the metal "frame" of the pool torn the liner and emptied the pool. SCARY!
That was lost money of pool chemicals and water only. Any problem/failure with one of your tanks would get VERY costly VERY quickly.
I believe that *Murphey likes to take our best designs and push them to the limits. In work case scenario you have a bad storm system pass thru and you have to cut the sheeting off the green house for any reason you will need the tanks to be able to weather (pun intended) the higher than normal winds. With the plywood box you could incorperate lids for the tanks with plywood that are either hinged or can be quickly/easily secured down. This would protect from all sorts of possible problems.
just some words of paranio for ya
AnnArborBuck
New member
For tanks you might want to consider something like tropicorium's design. Here is a picture from their site where you can see their tanks. They are plywood vats that they built and then lined with pond liner. The bottom of the tank is filled with tons and tons of live rock and there is a raceway on top of the tank (plastic sheets for green houses) where all of the corals are placed. They get some amazing LR with this setup and the corals are up close and personal. They have the whole thing setup to run with air to circulate the water and each room of the greenhouse is on a switch so they can easily turn off the circulation when customers are there looking at the corals.
Amazingly, tropicorium just had a fire last week where they lost two tanks. The place was filled with toxic smoke and the corals where out of the water for 2 hours. Believe it or not, they didn't lose a single coral. As of Saturday they believe the fire started in an electrical circuit in the wall. They got lucky in they saw the fire before they went to bed, otherwise they would have lost everything. You may want to get sometype of remote fire alarm system in there, you just never know.
Amazingly, tropicorium just had a fire last week where they lost two tanks. The place was filled with toxic smoke and the corals where out of the water for 2 hours. Believe it or not, they didn't lose a single coral. As of Saturday they believe the fire started in an electrical circuit in the wall. They got lucky in they saw the fire before they went to bed, otherwise they would have lost everything. You may want to get sometype of remote fire alarm system in there, you just never know.
AnnArborBuck
New member
Didn't realize you allready had the plastic sheets, so I guess the vat idea is out. One way to make your center brace is to use some cable wires and then wrap that with garden hose for safety and to prevent rusting. You can get 1/4 cable pretty cheap and it is easy to work with. If you look in the picture from tropicorium you can see how they did this. I haven't really ever noticed any shawdows from them in the tanks, and I go there allot.
I know I keep bringing up tropicorium but I feel it is relevant since they have been around a long time. Dick Perin knows what he is doing and it shows in his business. He discovered 20 years ago that if you ship corals out of water they will basically "shut down", so they can be shipped longer distances without any loses. If you ever get a chance to visit you should, 40,000 gallons of water is impressive to see.
I know I keep bringing up tropicorium but I feel it is relevant since they have been around a long time. Dick Perin knows what he is doing and it shows in his business. He discovered 20 years ago that if you ship corals out of water they will basically "shut down", so they can be shipped longer distances without any loses. If you ever get a chance to visit you should, 40,000 gallons of water is impressive to see.
AnnArborBuck
New member
gpajon said:
That would work great if the span isn't too great and I think in this case the span isn't large, so it would work. I agree in that the hose doesn't stop rusting, but it would definetly slow it down as water won't be able to directly splach onto the wire/rod. Either way they would need to be checked on a regular basis for corosion.
Triterium
New member
Rick, here's the thread to my very small project. Keep on posting the pictures. I am always excited when I get to see your progress.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534156
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534156
rick rottet said:
I'm not sure what you are doing for the stand. Are you using 3 joist running the 7' length, 2 on the edge and 1 in the middle? might be OK with no plywood. If it was me I would put a sheet on top of the joist. It does more than just provide support for the pvc it also help to keep the stand from twisting. You might also consider a sheet on the ends where the legs are for the same reason. A triangle of plywood from the bottom of the leg towards the middle of the tank would also help. I assume you dont want a stand that Henry can kick apart in a couple of seconds.:lol:
You could use the foam if you want. I think the plywood is a good idea and the foam is OK, but not as important as the plywood.
what are you useing for joist? 2x6, 2x4 etc. Are you going to have any legs in the center, or just the ends? Might be easier to level with just end legs.
The threaded rod sounds good. You could put epoxy paint on it to prevent it from rusting.
i think you are being over-paranoid with the shadows and the center bracing. look at the pros/cons of the center bracing:
con ~ shadows, and maybe a bit more difficult to work around
pros ~ security of knowing you arent going to walk out to the greenhouse one day and have 200 gallons of water on the floor, with hundreds(thousands?) of dollars of corals sitting around in the air....
you are using the sun to light your tanks. you will get shadows from the green house structure on your tanks, you will allso get shadows from all the overhead fans, wiring, etc.
BUT, the ambient lighting from the sun will more than make up for the shadows.
HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART ~ THE SUN MOVES CONTINOUSLY. therefore, so will any shadows. its not like in your tank in your house, where the shadow line will be consistently in the same location. your shadows will move. kind of like a fish swimming over the reef, or a boat passing by. or clouds overhead....
i'd add 2 or 3 center braces, and use the pvc that you've already bought....
con ~ shadows, and maybe a bit more difficult to work around
pros ~ security of knowing you arent going to walk out to the greenhouse one day and have 200 gallons of water on the floor, with hundreds(thousands?) of dollars of corals sitting around in the air....
you are using the sun to light your tanks. you will get shadows from the green house structure on your tanks, you will allso get shadows from all the overhead fans, wiring, etc.
BUT, the ambient lighting from the sun will more than make up for the shadows.
HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART ~ THE SUN MOVES CONTINOUSLY. therefore, so will any shadows. its not like in your tank in your house, where the shadow line will be consistently in the same location. your shadows will move. kind of like a fish swimming over the reef, or a boat passing by. or clouds overhead....
i'd add 2 or 3 center braces, and use the pvc that you've already bought....
Treeman
New member
I agree, Use the center bracing with the pvc. The shading will not be noticeable.
How deep are the tanks going to be? You probably said but I forgot. If it is over 15" deep I would put a plywood frame on the bottom and sides. I used 3/8" acrylic on my tanks. The deepest is 12" deep and I am having to go back and brace all of the tops. I guess due to the heat?
How deep are the tanks going to be? You probably said but I forgot. If it is over 15" deep I would put a plywood frame on the bottom and sides. I used 3/8" acrylic on my tanks. The deepest is 12" deep and I am having to go back and brace all of the tops. I guess due to the heat?
I would use the wood too. PVC sheet is not as strong as acrylic IME. You dont need to have 2 x 4 side bracing. You can build the frames plenty strong with 2 x 2s. This wont take up as much room. I'll second the cross braces- I dont believe it will be in the way near as much as you think. 316 ss threaded rod or stainless cable connected to the ply or wood framing- not the plastic.
You also could use OSB to save quite a bit over plywood.
Also, I would not trust a 1/4 solvent joint! Air weld it or use the angle and glue it in the corners.
Just my opinion.
You also could use OSB to save quite a bit over plywood.
Also, I would not trust a 1/4 solvent joint! Air weld it or use the angle and glue it in the corners.
Just my opinion.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
LegoZ81- I had discussed the idea of plywood boxes with the intent of being able to screw on a lid in case of disastrous weather back about four or five pages (sorry, too lazy to look up the quote). I had seen scubadude and others discussing the idea over in the new Calfo forum as a back up plan for hurricanes in Florida. It sounded like a good plan for me too in case of tornadoes. The only problem I can see with the plywood box for me would be that tornadoes tend to come up rather quickly and without much warning so I would most likely be out there in the middle of the weather trying to screw down lids. I think in this case, it would be just as beneficial (or dangerous) to have the plywood on hand and screw on all four sides and the top if the weather gets threatening. The structure itself should hold up under any wind that we are likely to see in this area (but we do get damaging winds occasionally). The plastic is likely to be torn to shreds in a tornado.
I think a plywood box would still have bowing issues unless it was surrounded by the 2" x 4" framework. Take a piece of plywood 7' x 2' and try to walk on it when it is supported by only the ends then compare your weight to the weight of 200 gallons of water. If the plywood needs to be surrounded by the 2" x4"s, then why not just use the 2" x 4"s without the plywood- and that is what I'm trying to get away from due to the amount of space an extra 7" for each stand will take up. I do appreciate your interest and participation.
AnnArborBuck- I have been to the Tropicorium back in November of 2003. Dick Perrin has been around a long time indeed and was/ is one of the pioneers of propagation. Everyone I talk to about his shop talks about the airlifts, that was one of the reasons I went on a five hour trip, that and the fact that it's a greenhouse (sort of) and I was researching greenhouses and using air for the majority of tank circulation. When I was there, he had powerheads running on every tank, not an airlift in the whole place. I am sorry to hear about the fire, but glad no one was hurt and they didn't lose much. I am starting to consider the cable idea, tschopp had the idea to use titanium wire so rusting wouldn't be an issue. I'm thinking I could even run it across both tanks on the stand to save space in the middle, but one drawback for that would be having to empty two tanks if I had to break down one on the same stand.
gpajohn- How's your project? Get anything figured out with your compressor loop? Threaded rod sounds like an alternative that would fit for me too, that or the wire is starting to sound pretty good.
Triteium- thanks for sharing that link. I'll be checking it out soon as I'm done posting here.
tschopp- here is the stand
4" x 4" legs, one on each corner and one in the middle of each side. Joists are 2" x 6" spaced 13" apart. Leveling is not too difficult because of the gravel floor, just scoot some rocks under where it needs to be higher or dig some rocks out where it needs to be lower. I have some concrete pavers that I will double up to make a four inch footer under each leg. Of course now, I need to cut it back down to get rid of the extra 7" in each dimension.
LMAO, Henry can huff and he can puff, but I guarantee he is walking away with a limp :lol:
With the threaded rod, cable/ wire, or pvc cross braces, do you guys think it would be necessary to still use the angled pvc for all of the joints?
boxer85- I am over paranoid about the shadows. I have had folks doing commercial propagation for 12. 15, and 20 years tell me not to worry about them and explain to me the same things you are saying, and I believe them, and you as well, and know it in my brain. I also know that I am going to have to shade some of the corals and that shade would be continuous throughout the day. I don't know why, but I just want to stay away from wide(er), over the tank braces. I guess I just want a fairly clean look to the top of the tank. Maybe part of it is because the tanks will be look down instead of displayed in glass. Maybe part of it is that it is in a greenhouse to make the best use of the sun and there is a part of me that says it just doesn't make sense to then block part of that light.
Treeman- the tanks will be 7' x 2'.
I think a plywood box would still have bowing issues unless it was surrounded by the 2" x 4" framework. Take a piece of plywood 7' x 2' and try to walk on it when it is supported by only the ends then compare your weight to the weight of 200 gallons of water. If the plywood needs to be surrounded by the 2" x4"s, then why not just use the 2" x 4"s without the plywood- and that is what I'm trying to get away from due to the amount of space an extra 7" for each stand will take up. I do appreciate your interest and participation.
AnnArborBuck- I have been to the Tropicorium back in November of 2003. Dick Perrin has been around a long time indeed and was/ is one of the pioneers of propagation. Everyone I talk to about his shop talks about the airlifts, that was one of the reasons I went on a five hour trip, that and the fact that it's a greenhouse (sort of) and I was researching greenhouses and using air for the majority of tank circulation. When I was there, he had powerheads running on every tank, not an airlift in the whole place. I am sorry to hear about the fire, but glad no one was hurt and they didn't lose much. I am starting to consider the cable idea, tschopp had the idea to use titanium wire so rusting wouldn't be an issue. I'm thinking I could even run it across both tanks on the stand to save space in the middle, but one drawback for that would be having to empty two tanks if I had to break down one on the same stand.
gpajohn- How's your project? Get anything figured out with your compressor loop? Threaded rod sounds like an alternative that would fit for me too, that or the wire is starting to sound pretty good.
Triteium- thanks for sharing that link. I'll be checking it out soon as I'm done posting here.
tschopp- here is the stand
4" x 4" legs, one on each corner and one in the middle of each side. Joists are 2" x 6" spaced 13" apart. Leveling is not too difficult because of the gravel floor, just scoot some rocks under where it needs to be higher or dig some rocks out where it needs to be lower. I have some concrete pavers that I will double up to make a four inch footer under each leg. Of course now, I need to cut it back down to get rid of the extra 7" in each dimension.
LMAO, Henry can huff and he can puff, but I guarantee he is walking away with a limp :lol:
With the threaded rod, cable/ wire, or pvc cross braces, do you guys think it would be necessary to still use the angled pvc for all of the joints?
boxer85- I am over paranoid about the shadows. I have had folks doing commercial propagation for 12. 15, and 20 years tell me not to worry about them and explain to me the same things you are saying, and I believe them, and you as well, and know it in my brain. I also know that I am going to have to shade some of the corals and that shade would be continuous throughout the day. I don't know why, but I just want to stay away from wide(er), over the tank braces. I guess I just want a fairly clean look to the top of the tank. Maybe part of it is because the tanks will be look down instead of displayed in glass. Maybe part of it is that it is in a greenhouse to make the best use of the sun and there is a part of me that says it just doesn't make sense to then block part of that light.
Treeman- the tanks will be 7' x 2'.
