let the insanity begin

[AnnArborBuck]

AnnArborBuck- I have been to the Tropicorium back in November of 2003. Dick Perrin has been around a long time indeed and was/ is one of the pioneers of propagation. Everyone I talk to about his shop talks about the airlifts, that was one of the reasons I went on a five hour trip, that and the fact that it's a greenhouse (sort of) and I was researching greenhouses and using air for the majority of tank circulation. When I was there, he had powerheads running on every tank, not an airlift in the whole place. I am sorry to hear about the fire, but glad no one was hurt and they didn't lose much. I am starting to consider the cable idea, tschopp had the idea to use titanium wire so rusting wouldn't be an issue. I'm thinking I could even run it across both tanks on the stand to save space in the middle, but one drawback for that would be having to empty two tanks if I had to break down one on the same stand.

The airlifts are still there and they are the primary circulation. They have two big powerheads in each tank so that when the turn the airlifts off so you can see into the tank there is still some circulation. The powerheads are mearly supplemental to the airlifts. Maybe their blower was down when you were there, but trust me, all the tanks main circulation is still provided by circulation. At least it was as of last saturday and friday.

What if you put the wire through the garden hose like I suggested and then cauked the ends so water couldn't get in. Sure titanium would work, but at what cost? Althought asthetically speaking a Ti or SS rod would look better then a garden hose.

 

[rick rottet]

H20ENG- you must have been posting while I was cuz I missed it.


I think I am going to try using the submerged cross braces and the angled pvc to reinforce the joints. There won't be any extra room taken up between the tanks, even for washers and nuts, and the tanks can be separate so I won't need to break down two tanks if one on a stand needs to be emptied. If the top still tries to bow out, I can put cross braces over the tank. The plywood base over the joists seems to be a consensus and that was my thought too, just always trying to save a buck if something is not necessary. .

 

[rick rottet]

AnnArborBuck- I hope you didn't think I was doubting your word, or that of anyone else. I was just saying I was a little disappointed to take a trip that far and not see what I was expecting. I did pick up a couple of blue mushrooms while I was there.

 

[gpajon]

gpajohn- How's your project? Get anything figured out with your compressor loop? Threaded rod sounds like an alternative that would fit for me too, that or the wire is starting to sound pretty good.

Rick my project is at a neglected standstill. I've been pretty busy working 7 days a week for the past month, needless to say I have to take sleep over the tank for now.
I used threaded rod on my tank and painted it with rustolium paint. The nice thing is that you can adjust it once the tank is full. Once the tank was filled I realized I had tightened it too much so I just got my wrench and loosened it. The rods come in lengths of up to 6 ft and in various diameters.

 

[LegoZ81]

Rick if you end up boxing the side you can but a hinged lid on top and an easy locking latch on back that way you could also secure the prop. tanks at night to help protect against easy theft or vandalism.
Just a thought...

 

[tschopp]

OK I get it. 2 tanks on one stand. The stand looks pretty stout as is. Some plywood (osb) on top would be a nice touch.

If the tornado comes please just run for cover. If it hits the greenhouse it won't matter what kind of wood is over the tanks and you don't want to be there screwing it down. My experience is that they come up sudenly and if you can get yourself some cover call it good.

The plywood box without framework is on display at next month's meeting. You are free to look for bowing, if you find any let me know.

The angle is mainly to provide a large glue joint to prevent leaks. It does help with the structure, but if you had other stuff providing the structural support I think it would be foolish to go without the angle. Think about pvc pipe. A 1/4" joint would be like butt gluing pipe togeather with no coupling. The coupling provides the same thing as the angle, a large surface to glue.

It is looking good. All this talk of DIY tanks makes me want to do another, maybe for a frag tank.

Steve

 

[boxer85]

boxer85- I am over paranoid about the shadows. I have had folks doing commercial propagation for 12. 15, and 20 years tell me not to worry about them and explain to me the same things you are saying, and I believe them, and you as well, and know it in my brain. I also know that I am going to have to shade some of the corals and that shade would be continuous throughout the day. I don't know why, but I just want to stay away from wide(er), over the tank braces. I guess I just want a fairly clean look to the top of the tank. Maybe part of it is because the tanks will be look down instead of displayed in glass. Maybe part of it is that it is in a greenhouse to make the best use of the sun and there is a part of me that says it just doesn't make sense to then block part of that light.

ok, so your over-paranoid. get over it.

i agree, don't go to a wide(er) tank base. use the base you have built, build the tank to your original specs. then add the center bracing.

if your concerned with the top, then take some other peoples ideas and do it half way down. still have a clean top, still get center bracing, still get original tank size, still get original amount of tanks, still don't have to worry about tanks busting out all over the place....

 

[H20ENG]

Gpajon and tschopp,
Ok, now you have to show us pics of those tanks!

 

[rick rottet]

gpajohn- I can relate. Landscape work never stops down there, eh. Up here, they just switch to plowing snow in winter.

lego- A hinged lid was something I hadn't yet considered or heard about. Would make it much quicker to get a lid on the tanks in an emergency but allow at least the width of the tanks between tanks to swing the lid up and over. Not too worried about vandals/ thieves, they will be caught on tape then I'll send Guido over to kick them apart- :lol: .

tschopp- your tank is all plywood with no supporting framework? glass front?
I understand the use of the angle, remember I used to be a plumber. If you promise not to tell my old boss, I have actually tried to butt glue pipe together, tried once to glue the street end of two fittings together too, even filled a few gaps with glue when the angles didn't quite match up. It will hold...for awhile, but is not going to hold 1600+ pounds of water.
Anyway, do you think the angle needs to run the entire length of each joint? or would like a five foot section be good on the 7' sides?

boxer- I hope you were joking about the "get over it". Maybe the concern over the shadows is irrational, but it is still my concern and I'll hold on to it, thank you. At 40+ years old, it's not likely that I'm going to alter my way of thinking about this, especially when there are other options available to accommodate what I want to accomplish. :bum:
I wouldn't have to "go to a wider tank base", the stand is already built to the wider measurements, so I need to cut it down to get rid of the extra 7" length and width, then build nine more of them.
If you read back through the posts, I was the first one to mention using the cross braces submerged down in the tanks, not "other peoples ideas". Others have mentioned/ talked about them afterwards, like scubadude (and I think he missed my post, so that was probably an original thought on his part too). I will/ have been the first to acknowledge when something I have used is someone else's idea, but I had never before seen, read about, or heard of submerged cross braces so I was mainly looking for people to verify if they thought it would be a mechanically sound option. As far as I know, there aren't allot of people out there building 210 gallon tanks 7" long out of 1/4" material and I don't have the experience/ knowledge to judge beforehand what would work and what wouldn't without going overkill.

Yeah gpajohn and tschopp, show us some pics!!

 

[melev]

Rick, I built an 80g sump out of 1/4" material once, and had to reinforce the heck out of it before I trusted it. To my knowledge, it is still holding strong to this day. http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/80/80g_sump.html

Your biggest issue is going to be height. If the tanks are short, bowing will be kept to a minimum. Here's another thought, although it adds to your expenses. What about having someone (or yourself) weld a frame that wraps the top edge of the tank? That way you can place one on each tank, and remove it later if necessary. Steel would be strongest, but need painting to protect against rust. Aluminum would be lightest but less strong I believe, and you need to use a special welder (Heli-Arc I believe).

Using the angle strips inside your joints will definitely reinforce them, but where will you use them and where will you not? Are you thinking only along the front and back seam as they are longer, or are you thinking all four base seams and all four corners too? Some glass tanks (and even a few acrylic) had an extra piece of glass (or acrylic) strip siliconed (or bonded) to the base and front / rear panels. You could do the same with scrap material, creating a 1/2" bond instead of a 1/4" seam.

Just food for thought.

 

[tschopp]

tschopp- your tank is all plywood with no supporting framework? glass front?

Anyway, do you think the angle needs to run the entire length of each joint? or would like a five foot section be good on the 7' sides?


Yeah gpajohn and tschopp, show us some pics!!

plywood with no support, except for the plywood. 3/4" glass front.
Dimmensions: 96" x 39" wide x 32" tall

I would run the angle on every bit of all the joints and miter it to get good coverage in the corners, then fill in the cracks between the angle with silicone. I know you are thinking 10' choped in 2 = 5' for ups shipment. I think you could have a 5' plus a 2' on the 7' it would not have to be a solid 7' strip.

Ok here are some pics. I turned on the lights to take the pics and the right most halide was not fully warmed up if the color looks a bit off.

Front of the tank: the plywood is only visible right next to the glass.

Here is the top of the tank. You can see some of the wooden x-brace and eurobrace.

Here is the side of the tank. You can see the plywood side of the tank, a bit of stand. This side is drilled with (2) 2" bulkheads. Tons of drain and retun pipe, misc wires.

 

[rick rottet]

melev- A steel frame would probably be the strongest thing that I could think of, but then I am back to taking up space on both sides of the tanks and with two tanks on a stand, more space taken up in the middle. I could wrap both tanks on one stand, but then when one tank needed to be broken down, both would have to be emptied. I think I'm going to try the internal stuff first and see how it works.
I think it would be best to reinforce every seam with the angle, I just don't know if it is necessary. The angle is 3/4" in each direction.
I'd love to see a pic of your 280 starfire. I saw some in your thread, just wondering if anything has changed.

tschopp- Now that I've seen your tank, does that mean I can skip the meeting? lol
Really nice job.
Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking about, 5' for UPS. I agree, reinforcing the entire length of each joint would be best.

 

[melev]

I posted a picture of the tank just a few days ago. Taking full tank shots is tough, and this image is a tad washed out.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/0205/full_tank_022205.jpg

 

[boxer85]

boxer- I hope you were joking about the "get over it".

basically, hence the smiley.

Maybe the concern over the shadows is irrational, but it is still my concern and I'll hold on to it, thank you. At 40+ years old, it's not likely that I'm going to alter my way of thinking about this, especially when there are other options available to accommodate what I want to accomplish. :bum:

just because you have 40+ yrs, doesnt mean that your way of thinking is correct. I acknowledge that you have a ton more experience than I, and you are obviously well read and knowledgable in many areas of DIY, however with so many people telling you the same thing, I would hope you would listen to them....

I wouldn't have to "go to a wider tank base", the stand is already built to the wider measurements, so I need to cut it down to get rid of the extra 7" length and width, then build nine more of them.

my bad, i thought you built the first stand to your original specs...

If you read back through the posts, I was the first one to mention using the cross braces submerged down in the tanks, not "other peoples ideas". As far as I know, there aren't allot of people out there building 210 gallon tanks 7" long out of 1/4" material and I don't have the experience/ knowledge to judge beforehand what would work and what wouldn't without going overkill.

sorry, should have said "your idea" mentioned by several others.

you are correct, not many people building tanks that size, if any.

hope you come up with a solution to your liking.

 

[rick rottet]

melev- nice shot. need any snails? (heehee) It has never failed to impress me how mature that tank has looked in such a short time.

boxer- I didn't mean to sound like I had my tail feathers in a ruffle at you and hope you are not offended. I do have to say that I know my way of thinking isn't always right and that's why I'm asking as many questions as anybody here. But when it comes to how I want a tank to look, that is my opinion/ judgement and I just don't want cross braces over the top of the tank. I don't necessarily think there is a correct or incorrect to it, just what I like to see. It would be like saying anyone who wants an acrylic tank is incorrect because they didn't choose glass. There are any number of other ways to accomplish reinforcing the tanks and still get the open top look I want. Most of the ideas mentioned here would work well in any case, including mine, but this project has it's own set of circumstances that needs to be accommodated for this project to be successful in my eyes. One of those circumstances is utilizing space. Even a few extra inches per stand would make me have to leave out one or more tanks, or make aisles narrower than would be comfortable. I don't want to compromise in that aspect.
I do appreciate the interest you have shown and the contributions you have made.

 

[melev]

Would you consider I-beams as removable crossbraces? That way they are there when you need them, but removeable when required.

And believe it or not, I have 100 more snails coming in tomorrow, to munch down my bryopsis.

 

[rick rottet]

I hate bryopsis.

I beams??? made of what material?

Really, I just prefer the look of an open top. I think it will display nicer for a look down tank. If I was doing glass tanks, it wouldn't be as big of an issue for me because the corals could be viewed through the glass. Plus you know, I'm paranoid about the shadows. :lol:

 

[melev]

I bet you'd even veto invisible cross braces!!

I-beams made out of some type of metal, even aluminum would work. You know what? I don't care what you use as long as it holds.

 

[rick rottet]

LMAO
Where did you get that smiley? Henry would love that (if he doesn't already have it).

Primary goal=must hold water-note taken ::

 

[boxer85]

boxer- I didn't mean to sound like I had my tail feathers in a ruffle at you and hope you are not offended.

no worries. good luck with the bracing.