let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
There you go.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
As a matter of fact....
I did talk to Ray (owner of Capitol Corals in Chatham, IL) at the recent IMAC conference about those units. He loves his. Says it does a great job filtering and actually leaves some calcium and some other beneficial elements in the water. He is having some trouble finding replacement parts because the company is in the process of moving to another state right now.
This is also another avenue I am exploring as we speak.
I did talk to Ray (owner of Capitol Corals in Chatham, IL) at the recent IMAC conference about those units. He loves his. Says it does a great job filtering and actually leaves some calcium and some other beneficial elements in the water. He is having some trouble finding replacement parts because the company is in the process of moving to another state right now.
This is also another avenue I am exploring as we speak.
Rick,
You are right, using nitrogen gas to power the skimmers will deplete the oxygen in the water (the gas will want to tend toward the chemical equilibrium in the air, 78% N2 and 21% O2, so the only way it will get there is to remove oxygen from the water). Shallow water airstones powered from the blower would have to makeup that oxygen.
There are advantages and disadvantages in what I proposed (using liquid nitrogen to power the skimmers). I see cost and reliability (no maintenance, only replace the cylinder each month) as positives and oxygen depletion (and perhaps safety) as the negatives. Perhaps in the future, I will have the time in investigate this method, but currently, and until I have time to look at this further, I cannot recommend it.
You are right, using nitrogen gas to power the skimmers will deplete the oxygen in the water (the gas will want to tend toward the chemical equilibrium in the air, 78% N2 and 21% O2, so the only way it will get there is to remove oxygen from the water). Shallow water airstones powered from the blower would have to makeup that oxygen.
There are advantages and disadvantages in what I proposed (using liquid nitrogen to power the skimmers). I see cost and reliability (no maintenance, only replace the cylinder each month) as positives and oxygen depletion (and perhaps safety) as the negatives. Perhaps in the future, I will have the time in investigate this method, but currently, and until I have time to look at this further, I cannot recommend it.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
cseeton- glad you finally got some sleep :lol: (heehee)
szwab- here are a few links I have on my favorites
http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/koldproduct.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/koldsterilfaqs.htm
You can also google a search for Kold ster-il or poly bio marine
Happy reading
szwab- here are a few links I have on my favorites
http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/koldproduct.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/koldsterilfaqs.htm
You can also google a search for Kold ster-il or poly bio marine
Happy reading
Carl_in_Florida
Active member
I just went through this entire thread. When I was reading the winter entries i was saying to myself, "I can't wait till the summer with a complete prop system!"
Then I got to the end of the thread and you are still plowing.
Kudos to you on your persistance. I look forward to following your progress.
Carl
Then I got to the end of the thread and you are still plowing.
Kudos to you on your persistance. I look forward to following your progress.
Carl
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Thanks Carl, I appreciate your encouragement (and really need it right now too).
Lots of problems, lots of solutions pending. I just want to make sure whatever else goes on, that I can have good quality reliable water. That is the number one prority at the moment...at least as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter if I get the air systems and temp controls all fine tuned if I don't have a reliable source of good water, I won't be able to get this place running at full steam and will be spending lots of money on replacing membranes and cartridges. If only those DI towers worked as advertised, this wouldn't even be an issue. It's not at all that I'm disappointed in the DI, but that I'm disappointed with the way it performs with my town's water. I knew our water was bad, but didn't realize how fast it would deplete the capacity of the DI.
As far as the Kold Ster-il is concerned, it looks like it would be a fantastic filtration system for someone with a decent water supply from a municipal treatment plant where the quality is already average or better. For someone like me, I don't think it will be a sound investment at this point. The down sides seem to be; 1) It won't filter iron...they (Poly Bio Marine) does offer an extra "metal sponge" filter that will get rid of some of the iron; 2) It won't filter silicates, which my source water is also high in. They also offer a chemical media which will get rid of some of the silicate.
I would still need to invest in some sort of iron filtration/removal system. Maybe if I didn't already have the RO in place, and set up the iron removal system to go in front of the Kold Ster-il, it would be adequate. At this point though, it would just be an additional expense plus basically throwing away the RO units.
As far as I can tell, there are two sizes of the Kold Ster-il. One is advertised to process 5,000 gallons of water running at 3.8 gallons per minute. It costs about $300. The replacement filters and media run about another $42. My DI was advertised to run 9,000+ gallons and I only get about 300. With that kind of math, I might get 160 - 170 gallons and be buying new filters for the Kold Ster-il every day. Then I may need to put the RO in front of it anyway to extend the life of the Kold Ster-il plus the iron system to extend the life of the RO.
The larger Kold Ster-il is advertised to process 150,000 gallons runing at 14 - 20 gallons per minute. Cost is about $1,000 and the replacement filters are a "couple hundred". (Can't even find anyone online who advertises a price for the larger unit's filter replacements.) Using the same math, maybe I could run 5,000 gallons but then need to buy new filters about every month or a little longer plus still have to put the iron system in front of it. If the membranes will last on the RO units, I would only need to buy sediment and carbon prefilters about every three weeks and I can get them pretty cheap.
This does not take into account that the only person I personally know who is using a Kold Ster-il, is having trouble locating the replacement filters.
Since there is already money invested in the RODI, I think the most logical thing to do is put the iron removal system in front of it. They do remove more than just iron. They will also remove or reduce tannins, manganese, sulfur (and sulfates and sulfides). This is sure to be a significant decrease in the work the RODI has to do. They will also reduce turbidity and elevate pH which will make the DI more efficient. (Something I have found very strange about DI units is that the ani portion works better at higher pH but the kati portion comes first and reduces pH by releasing the H+ ions.) I have found the iron removal systems for $1,040 online. Then add in freight (not shipping) and install it myself (not an issue). Then I have to consider what happens if the system requires service. Could be tough if the supplier is across country. There is a local water softener company who will sell me one for $1,587.38 installed and guaranteed. They won't give me a price break if I install it, more or less just doing me a favor. There would be no extra charges and service would be right around the corner. These units are really supposed to be set it and forget it. The unit backflushes all of the oxides automatically and replenishes the air charge at a time interval that can be set when I want. There is no chemical media that needs to be recharged as with a softener. Nothing else to buy for it or do to it unless it needs repaired.
Nothing left to do, I guess, except break out the checkbook.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Lots of problems, lots of solutions pending. I just want to make sure whatever else goes on, that I can have good quality reliable water. That is the number one prority at the moment...at least as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter if I get the air systems and temp controls all fine tuned if I don't have a reliable source of good water, I won't be able to get this place running at full steam and will be spending lots of money on replacing membranes and cartridges. If only those DI towers worked as advertised, this wouldn't even be an issue. It's not at all that I'm disappointed in the DI, but that I'm disappointed with the way it performs with my town's water. I knew our water was bad, but didn't realize how fast it would deplete the capacity of the DI.
As far as the Kold Ster-il is concerned, it looks like it would be a fantastic filtration system for someone with a decent water supply from a municipal treatment plant where the quality is already average or better. For someone like me, I don't think it will be a sound investment at this point. The down sides seem to be; 1) It won't filter iron...they (Poly Bio Marine) does offer an extra "metal sponge" filter that will get rid of some of the iron; 2) It won't filter silicates, which my source water is also high in. They also offer a chemical media which will get rid of some of the silicate.
I would still need to invest in some sort of iron filtration/removal system. Maybe if I didn't already have the RO in place, and set up the iron removal system to go in front of the Kold Ster-il, it would be adequate. At this point though, it would just be an additional expense plus basically throwing away the RO units.
As far as I can tell, there are two sizes of the Kold Ster-il. One is advertised to process 5,000 gallons of water running at 3.8 gallons per minute. It costs about $300. The replacement filters and media run about another $42. My DI was advertised to run 9,000+ gallons and I only get about 300. With that kind of math, I might get 160 - 170 gallons and be buying new filters for the Kold Ster-il every day. Then I may need to put the RO in front of it anyway to extend the life of the Kold Ster-il plus the iron system to extend the life of the RO.
The larger Kold Ster-il is advertised to process 150,000 gallons runing at 14 - 20 gallons per minute. Cost is about $1,000 and the replacement filters are a "couple hundred". (Can't even find anyone online who advertises a price for the larger unit's filter replacements.) Using the same math, maybe I could run 5,000 gallons but then need to buy new filters about every month or a little longer plus still have to put the iron system in front of it. If the membranes will last on the RO units, I would only need to buy sediment and carbon prefilters about every three weeks and I can get them pretty cheap.
This does not take into account that the only person I personally know who is using a Kold Ster-il, is having trouble locating the replacement filters.
Since there is already money invested in the RODI, I think the most logical thing to do is put the iron removal system in front of it. They do remove more than just iron. They will also remove or reduce tannins, manganese, sulfur (and sulfates and sulfides). This is sure to be a significant decrease in the work the RODI has to do. They will also reduce turbidity and elevate pH which will make the DI more efficient. (Something I have found very strange about DI units is that the ani portion works better at higher pH but the kati portion comes first and reduces pH by releasing the H+ ions.) I have found the iron removal systems for $1,040 online. Then add in freight (not shipping) and install it myself (not an issue). Then I have to consider what happens if the system requires service. Could be tough if the supplier is across country. There is a local water softener company who will sell me one for $1,587.38 installed and guaranteed. They won't give me a price break if I install it, more or less just doing me a favor. There would be no extra charges and service would be right around the corner. These units are really supposed to be set it and forget it. The unit backflushes all of the oxides automatically and replenishes the air charge at a time interval that can be set when I want. There is no chemical media that needs to be recharged as with a softener. Nothing else to buy for it or do to it unless it needs repaired.
Nothing left to do, I guess, except break out the checkbook.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Any way to find out whats inside the iron removal unit and DIY it? I bet you can find an old softener tank that someone has chucked. Hook a pump and venturi to it for the air and let it flow around the media.
Not exactly sure whats involved, but I'm SURE you could copy it. Hell you built huge tanks from 1/4" material!!!!:lol:
Not exactly sure whats involved, but I'm SURE you could copy it. Hell you built huge tanks from 1/4" material!!!!:lol:
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Bringing in water from an outside source is an option I have considered (briefly) and discussed with a few people. A few advantages, but the drawbacks far outwiegh benifits.
None of the info I have been able to find has been very specific about the media (must be a big secret). I think the air induction part would be pretty straight forward. Treeman had the idea about using a sprayer to fill a vat which would oxidize the iron and then let it settle out as rust. An old tank with a venturi should accomplish it in principle as well. Although, the info I have says there are "hundreds of free floating baffles" which allow/force the water to cascade through the air head. The water then flows through the first media which elevates the pH and in turn accelerates the oxidation. That is the first vessel (the systems I'm looking at are two vessels in a series).
The filtration/removal part doesn't sound that complicated, just can't seem to find a source for the type(s) of media they use. Much of the .pdf files I have searched and the pamphlets from the local company just say there is a "layered bed of various inert granular media" which filters the oxides and particulates.
The unit from the local company will flow 5 gpm while running, backflushes with 7 gpm. Supposedly, will not affect the hardness (i.e. calcium, magnesium, carbonates, borates and bicarbonates). Heck, maybe this thing by itself will be enough (HA-don't think so).
None of the info I have been able to find has been very specific about the media (must be a big secret). I think the air induction part would be pretty straight forward. Treeman had the idea about using a sprayer to fill a vat which would oxidize the iron and then let it settle out as rust. An old tank with a venturi should accomplish it in principle as well. Although, the info I have says there are "hundreds of free floating baffles" which allow/force the water to cascade through the air head. The water then flows through the first media which elevates the pH and in turn accelerates the oxidation. That is the first vessel (the systems I'm looking at are two vessels in a series).
The filtration/removal part doesn't sound that complicated, just can't seem to find a source for the type(s) of media they use. Much of the .pdf files I have searched and the pamphlets from the local company just say there is a "layered bed of various inert granular media" which filters the oxides and particulates.
The unit from the local company will flow 5 gpm while running, backflushes with 7 gpm. Supposedly, will not affect the hardness (i.e. calcium, magnesium, carbonates, borates and bicarbonates). Heck, maybe this thing by itself will be enough (HA-don't think so).
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rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
melv- Thanks for the info.
H2OENG- Wouldn't the permanganate need to be "recharged" with some type of salt? GAC should eventually reach a saturation point and need to be replaced. These units claim they use inert media and don't need any recharging except to replenish the air (automatically). They don't work by ab/adsorption, they use mechanical filtration. I could try sending off some emails, but if they aren't sharing the specifics on their website, I doubt if they are going to tell me what the media is so I can bypass buying one from them. (Knowing my luck, it will be a silica sand- hee)
H2OENG- Wouldn't the permanganate need to be "recharged" with some type of salt? GAC should eventually reach a saturation point and need to be replaced. These units claim they use inert media and don't need any recharging except to replenish the air (automatically). They don't work by ab/adsorption, they use mechanical filtration. I could try sending off some emails, but if they aren't sharing the specifics on their website, I doubt if they are going to tell me what the media is so I can bypass buying one from them. (Knowing my luck, it will be a silica sand- hee)
In that case, Its probably just bio-ball type media to keep the air / water interface very high. You could see if they have a patent # and look it up (but, of course, DONT build it, just research the technology 
).
I dont know the reaction of the permanganate, just that its used in the iron removal systems. Its a strong oxidizer, and probably would need to be replaced, not recharged.
I would think that a venturi and ozone would be the cheapest way to DIY, with a settling tank to catch the gunk.
).I dont know the reaction of the permanganate, just that its used in the iron removal systems. Its a strong oxidizer, and probably would need to be replaced, not recharged.
I would think that a venturi and ozone would be the cheapest way to DIY, with a settling tank to catch the gunk.
Actually, on the patent issue, rick can research it and even build it personally... He just can't sell it...
http://www.uspto.gov/
http://www.uspto.gov/
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
OK, here we go. This is the unit that looks the best to me. Also happens to be the one the local softener company has. It has the most varied types of filtration media, is fully adjustable as far as being able to set the recharge intervals when I want them to be, operates the air/oxidation process under pressure (increases oxidation rates), fully automatic when set up, elevates the water's pH, has no pumps or compressors to worry about, can be sanitized easily if the iron bactera become problematic,....
H2OENG, check out about the 3rd page or so, it shows how much and of what types the filtration medias are. I knew I would find it if I kept looking.
It is about 16 pages of .pdf, so it takes a few minutes to show up.
http://www.marlo-inc.com/download/res/pdf/8555w.pdf
H2OENG, check out about the 3rd page or so, it shows how much and of what types the filtration medias are. I knew I would find it if I kept looking.
It is about 16 pages of .pdf, so it takes a few minutes to show up. http://www.marlo-inc.com/download/res/pdf/8555w.pdf
Hi Rick,
Thanks for the link, printed and read it. It looks like a nice unit. From what I understand, when it backwashes, it drains the unit and then via venturi, refills it with air. When the drain closes, the normal water pressure compresses the air inside. The plastic media just acts like bioballs- to give a very large air / water interface in a small space. It then goes through calcite to raise ph, and then through carbon.
The second unit is just a filter. The different grades of sand help clarify the water and the different densities help it re-stratify after backwashing. I think the highest cost is the timers and valves.
All in all, though, a good deal for $1500.
You could DIY it for fairly cheap, but would have to control it all manually.
Thanks for the link, printed and read it. It looks like a nice unit. From what I understand, when it backwashes, it drains the unit and then via venturi, refills it with air. When the drain closes, the normal water pressure compresses the air inside. The plastic media just acts like bioballs- to give a very large air / water interface in a small space. It then goes through calcite to raise ph, and then through carbon.
The second unit is just a filter. The different grades of sand help clarify the water and the different densities help it re-stratify after backwashing. I think the highest cost is the timers and valves.
All in all, though, a good deal for $1500.
You could DIY it for fairly cheap, but would have to control it all manually.
