let the insanity begin

[rick rottet]

Good luck with your venture. Don't forget to share your progress.

The airline is standard aquarium tubing. 3/16" airline tubing. I use the flexible tubing to get from the blower manifold to the air lift, then a piece of rigid air line to go down inside the air lift.

If by "the main air lines", you mean the pvc pipe that runs from the blower and down both sides of the greenhouse, (blower manifold), that is two inch pipe.

The crushed coral I get from a distributor, but should be able to find it in any LFS. Lots of different sizes available. I like the 1/4" because it has enough weight to hold down 'shrooms and lighter frags that might get blown around the tank with a smaller size gravel/sand.

 

[ALTI]

thanks rick,
are u going to use frag plugs or live rock to mount your frags. one of my local wholesalers who buys from me really likes the frag plugs instead of the live rock. the plugs give it more of an aquacultured look.

 

[rick rottet]

I mounted the GSP cuttings to LR, well...most of them. Some are on tiles for growout. I will likely mount the 'shrooms to LR also. I prefer the "live" substrates, but as I go along, it will more depend on what others want. I'm not opposed to mounting frags and cuttings to almost anything suitable. That was/is one of the reasons I wanted to keep most of the stock propagating loosely on the crushed coral gravel, then they can be mounted to whatever people want.

 

[SRVDVM]

Rick,
Took a while to get through this but I did...

I was thinking about your cooling problem in the summer. A couple of thoughts. Anything that produces heat (ie the blower)..do they have to be inside the greenhouse? Could they be in a small adjacent structure and piped into the greenhouse?

I do not understand everything about the geothermal stuff but I was wondering if a septic tank like structure (I think they make plastic ones) could be buried below the frost line and used as a way to cool the water ? I do not know how many gallons the tanks are but think of a large amount of water surrounded by 50-55 degree soil. The water from the tanks go out to the septic tank and then back to the sump. Just thinking here late at night. Might be easier than running a large amount of pipe though the yard

Also another thought that may be to late for you but of possible interest to future greenhouse projects. What about a pit style of green house with the first 4-5 feet of the greenhouse below ground level. This has been used in cold weather climates to make greenhouses easier to heat in the winter due to the insulation of the soil. This may also work to help keep the GH cool in the summer. More research with an agriculture department at a college may help to find out if this idea is viable

Just some thoughts/ramblings/sleep deprived halucinations :lolspin:

 

[rick rottet]

Thanks for reading through the thread. I know by now, it must take quite awhile and I appreciate anybody who has enough patience to get through it all.

The blower does not have to be inside, it could be outside. I belive Treeman keeps his blower outside (Florida). The things that would concern me with the blower being outside would be the cold in winter, a separate structure to maintain and a separate place to go to keep an eye on a piece of equipment (checking air filters and temperatures). At this point, it would also mean the additional expense of building the structure, piping the blower through the greenhouse plastic or through the toe boards, plus another electrical run to the outside. Whatever structure the blower was in could be heated, but that is an additional expense. I would bet (but don't know for sure) that a structure with a blower inside of it is going to heat up, if even a little, in the summer. It could be vented, I'm sure, but might need a separate fan or something in there too. I do keep the blower on the floor of the greenhouse where the air would theoretically be the coolest so the blower would be drawing in cooler air than if it was sitting up higher. The blower did put off excessive heat back when I was trying to run the skimmers with it, like I couldn't even touch it for more than a second or two. Now, since I am just running the airlifts with it, it is just barely noticeably warm to the touch. Really not anything to worry about at this point.

Many of us discussed the buried tank idea, (and using the swimming pool, large vat in my basement, buried tank with a chiller, drilling a well system,...). It appears that in order to keep a volume of water cooled, (in this case about 4600 gallons), there needs to be approximately three times that volume of the cooler water, otherwise the heat exchange will warm up the cooler water too much for it to be effective. As the buried water heats up, it also heats up the soil around the tank (or pipe) and reduces the amount of cooling. The swimming pool may still be an alternative IF I can shade it for the hottest part of the summer AND do some heavy duty evaporation on it, especially through the night hours.

The buried floor may have some merit, I don't know. I do know that the sun heats up the inside of the greenhouse pretty drastically. It might help to insulate and heat it in winter, but I doubt if it will help cool it much in summer. I really don't know. That would take some investigation, but even if it did have the potential to help, I probably wouldn't be willing to empty out the entire greenhouse and basically rebuild it. Like you said, someone in the future might be able to investigate the idea.

After the evap pads were installed, we had several days in a row of temperatures in the mid 90's and my tank water never got above 81 F. The humidity wasn't at it's worst though. If I remember, the humidity was in the 55 - 70 % range during that time. I think at this point, I'm willing to wait and see what happens next summer. As long as the temps don't rise too quickly, I think that is more important than the actual temp...to a point of course.

Thanks again for taking your time and thanks for suggesting the ideas. I think they have merit and would probably work, for me it is just the practicality of it right now .

 

[rick rottet]

My friend Treeman could use some good thoughts and well-wishes sent his way.

Go here and scroll down. Very sad.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6010817#post6010817post6010817

 

[jnarowe]

Horrible. Totally horrible. Does he have any aid coming?--J

 

[rick rottet]

He said he thinks he has it covered for now.

 

[NewMariner]

Rick,

Very impressed!!! Quite an undertaking....This coming year for me I will begin on a journey of coral propagation...much like you have done. I will be starting with a 300g tank main display tank, along with 300g rubbermaid tubs just to get my feet wet in the business world...

Was there a particular reason as to why you didnt want to combine the tanks in your greenhouse? Right now you have each system individually plumbed, which is ok, but if you combined your systems it would take a lot longer to heat up 4000g of water....where as now each one is what 200g? 200g heats up faster then 4000g combined...

2ndly, on your blower lines, any particular reason you chose to go with 2 inch pvc pipe? Forgive me, Im no plumber, but to me it seems if you used a smaller pipe, you would get increased psi...

3rd, once you get your tanks up and running, are you going to be buying corals from wholesalers or just online vendors and basically reselling? If from wholesalers, do they require minimum purchase amount?

Im grateful for your undertaking, as I begin to do my own research for my own "coral farm".

 

[rick rottet]

Thanks for the kind words and good luck with your venture as well.

There are several reasons I want to keep each species (or at least genus) separate...1) because the vast majority of corals put out chemicals into the water which affect the growth rates of other corals. These chemicals are their way of slowing the growth of competitors and giving themselves a better chance of multiplying and/or taking over more real estate on the reef. (allelopathy). If we keep these species separated, they will grow/multiply faster (in the vast majority of cases...there are always exceptions). Running carbon or poly filters helps, but won't elimnate the issue and they are fairly expensive for a project of this size. 2) It is easier, and more beneficial to the corals, to adjust lighting for one type of coral per tank. Each coral has different lighting requirements. Keeping a mixed tank means that some corals may get too much light and some may not get enough. This will also coprimise the growth rates. 3) Keeping like corals together simplifies the feeding of those corals. They eat different things and it is just better to only have to feed one type (size of particles, phytoplankton vs zooplankton vs bacteria...) of food to a tank than to dump in many different types. 4) Quarantine is simplified. I can put all of my starters for one species in a quarantine at one time. For a mixed tank, it would take many quarantine tanks or else putting several corals in quarantine at once, which kind of defeats the purpose of a quarantine. 5) If (God forbid) a tank crashes, I only lose one type of coral instead of many varieties, so I can keep the availability of my stock as high as possible. There's more, but it's late enough that I'm thinking a little slow... plus the glue fumes have gotten to me.

I went with 2" on the blower manifold because that is what the manufacturer recommended. (another engineer later told me three inch would have been better for a blower of this size) You are correct in saying a smaller pipe would create more psi, but increased psi over what the blower is designed to produce is not a good thing. As far as I have been able to learn, a smaller pipe creates more "friction" and reduces the amount of flow (volume...cfm) and also puts more of a load on the blower. If we are only running shallow air lifts, pressure is not that big of a concern. Anything that puts a load on the blower (small pipe, not enough bleed-off air, deep outlets) makes the blower work harder and hotter which leads to a shorter lifespan of the equipment. They are not designed to create high pressures, they are designed to move quantity of air.

This project is dedicated to propagation to create a sustainable harvest. To me, buying/reselling defeats the purpose of having a "propagation" facility. Up here in Illinois, it would also require additional licenses. In general terms, the state doesn't require the additional license if a person only sells that which he(she) has produced and/or raised. I would be VERY hesitant to buy anything live online. I want to see it, touch it, smell it....(well, that's probably as far as I want to go with a coral) or else have someone I completely trust there to see it for me. I have four tanks stocked and running right now and 99.9% of it has come out of my home tanks.

All of the distributors I have had contact with require a minimum purchase, and it is usually a weekly amount. Some wholesalers might, but some do not.

Hope that helps.

 

[rick rottet]

Here is the same colony from the above picture,

and thirteen days later. (yes, I scraped a little frag of it from the lower right hand corner.)

Here are some better pics of those Discosoma (Rhodactis?)(other?) now that the screens have all been removed from the trays.

Some of the larger ones...

And all of the little ones.

 

[rick rottet]

Some nice purple Ricordea in quarantine.

Nicely colored purple and blue mushrooms (Actinodiscus). (and one lonely red)

A covered rock of marbled mushrooms (Actinodiscus)(marmoratous?).

A large rock full of GSP (Pachyclavularia) to add to my current stock....

from which I already took some cuttings for grow out on tiles.

I have taken all of the Actinodiscus mushrooms from my home tank to set up the fourth tank in the greenhouse. I had five varieties and placed them in the first five trays going from the right. The trays in front of them with the screens are ones which had to be removed without being attached to any substrate. The screens help reduce the flow in the trays so the loose corals can attach more easily. The tray on the very left end are ones that were too small to identify, so they will have to grow out before they go in with whichever tray they belong.

 

[rick rottet]

red (maybe cardinalis?)...just a guess.

Some of W2's cursed green spotted mushrooms. (guess = mutabilis)

These are a rusty red with blue spots. The blue spots are difficult to see, but if you look closely, the spots are visible on some of them. The natural sunlight tends to mute some of the colors, the greens and blues especially, but under aquarium lighting, the colors pop more.

And my own marbled mushrooms. Here is another example of the sun muting the colors. In my aquarium with 10K lights, these were brownish with fluorescent green marbling. The green looks muted under the sun.

I also have a tray of nice shiny blue, (coeruleus?) but they were all loose and required the screen so I can't get a clear picture of them just yet.

 

[jnarowe]

I love that GSP. Can't wait to get some for my tank. What perameters does it thrive in? can you recommend a top-notch book on coral husbandry?

 

[rick rottet]

GSP is VERY hardy and quite adaptable to almost any lighting...within reason of course. It doesn't have huge calcium or alkalinity demands either. Excellent "beginners" coral. Most people I know that have (have had) it in their tanks, wish they never heard of the stuff because it will spread and take over if you let it.

One of my favorite books, as far as husbandry is concerned, is Eric Borneman's "Aquarium Corals- Selection, Husbandry and Natural History". It is a wealth of information although I find it to be a little general when it comes to making recommendations for lighting in that he uses words like "bright", "indirect", "moderate", etc. This book is a little more scientific in nature, but not like a boring scientific journal. It is an excellent read.

Anthony Calfo's "Book of Coral Propagation" has good husbandry information in it as well. It has content dedicated to auxiliary systems like refugiums, lagoons, tidal tanks. Also has an easy to understand guide to water quality parameters. He is a little more specific when it comes to recommendations for lighting by saying, mix of X # of daylight bulbs with X# of actinics with a certain wattage for depth of tank for a given species of coral. All around an easy read in layman's terms.

 

[brad23]

So when are you going to start selling these?

 

[jnarowe]

Thanks for the recommendations RR. Considering the size of my tank, I think one or two spreading corals would be a good idea. I guess the main issue is controlling it as needed.

 

[rick rottet]

Well gang, it's been awhile.

I was talking with a biologist who works at an Ohio zoo. We were rambling on about all kinds of stuff when he happened to mention that he had built some tanks from PVC also, but not as large as mine. He said he put the angle stock on the outside of the tank instead of the inside. His thought was that if there was a leak, there would only be one seam to repair instead of two (one seam on each edge of the angle stock when it is inside the tank). I thought that would be something to try and also thought a bead of silicone could be run around the inside seams to seal them. I asked around and spoke with quite a few people about it, then decided to go ahead with it on one tank to see how it went.

The building process was much easier. I didn't have to make sure that all of the glue joints between the angle and the tank wall had a continuous stream of glue, the joints between the walls were much easier to align straight and square, the angle could be set on the workbench and the weight of the wall would hold it in place while the glue dried to ensure a good bond. It just seemed like a better and more convenient process all the way around. I received some advice to sand the joints a little to allow the silicone to bite into the pvc and form a better seal, so I did that. Well, that tank ended up with more leaks and gave me more trouble than the first four tanks combined. I ended up digging out all of the silicone and laying a fillet of glue in a double layer on the inside seams to get it all sealed up. The sixth tank was being constructed at the same time, so I went straight to the double layer of glue and this tank was, amazingly, leak free.

Now I am considering trying my hand at heat welding the inside seams. Always changing, always trying something new.

I also revisited the idea of plumbing the live rock vat to surface overflow into a separate vessel before getting pumped up to the skimmers. The first time the vat was plumbed to overflow surface water into the cut barrel, there was only two of the four intake pipes overflowing into the barrel. There was one pump from the cut barrel feeding into two of the skimmers. The other two skimmers remained plumbed from a second pump which drew from the original submerged intakes. It was very difficult to maintain a consistent water level in the cut barrel. The wild fluctuations caused either overflowing of the barrel or cavitation of the pump. Both conditions put the pump in jeopardy by either getting wet or running dry. My recent thoughts were with the two pumps running, but only one plumbed as an overflow return, there was some kind of imbalance created with the second pump returning water that wasn't in the overflow loop. It really shouldn't have been any different than having a tank with an overflow to a sump and a return, plus including a second pump on an open or closed loop that is plumbed with it's intake from the tank and returning into the tank, but it was different somehow. There was just something in my mind that kept telling me it would work if I tried it again with all four intakes overflowing into the cut barrel, then using only one return pump to feed all four skimmers. This also had the benefit of eliminating the electricity usage of one pump, and lowering expenses is always a good thing. The vat was plumbed this way on Tuesday evening (10-25-05) and there have been no issues thus far. (The flexible tubing that is hanging from the vat along side the cut barrel is not part of the system, it is the hose I use to run around and top off the tanks. There is a hole drilled into the vat which makes a convenient place to hang the hose.)

Since the fifth tank is now available, I pulled the Sarcophyton elegans from quarantine. It had only been about thirty days, but it was sloughing mucous pretty frequently and forcing me to do nearly 100% water changes every couple of days. I figured it would be better to get it into a larger volume of water, plus it is the first specimen in the tank, so technically, it still is in quarantine.
Just a beautiful creature. Can't hardly wait to slash it into pieces.

 

[jnarowe]

The Sarcophyton elegans is beautiful!

I am reading Eric Borneman's "Aquarium Corals- Selection, Husbandry and Natural History" and it is fairly informative but I agree about the lax descriptions of light needed for each coral as well as no "recipes" (so far) for putting together a good community coral tank in which the corals tend to get along.

The light issue is somewhat flexible though since as he states repeatedly, corals tend to morph in reaction to various flow and light conditions. Since I will be having very bright light on a fairly deep tank, I should be able to select coral location without much problem and using Borneman's descriptions will make it even easier.

The cut tank you discuss looks familiar. Is it having structural problems since you cut it? I have been looking at something similar for a sump but worry about it sagging if I cut the top off. I believe it is actually a septic or potable water tank.

 

[rick rottet]

Cut tank???
Do you mean the cut barrel? (the one I am using on the side of the live rock vat to catch the surface overflown water). That was just one of those 55 gallon plastic barrels (drums). The same ones I am using to store water and mix salt. Nope, no structural problems. The top rim is a little more flexible than the top rim of an intact barrel, but the water exerts equal pressure in all directions, so the round shape doesn't become affected too much. Plus, it only stays about 2" - 3" full of water.

The live rock vat itself is a 425 gallon agricultural tank that was made to fit in the back of a pick up truck. I cut the entire dome top off of it. It does have some wave to the top rim in the back right corner and the far right side. I think that is mostly because I get up there and stand on it once in a while to work on things. I haven't had any structural issues with it either.