let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
You mean the HAF fan?? (not the furnace fan...right?).
What do you guys think of the ceiling fan idea?
The shutters are sealed tight with polystyrene foam that I cut just a hair larger than the shutter opening. The foam sheet is press fit into the opening. The door is good too. (I never had anything over the shutters last year)
I also opened up the little blower that inflates the plastic to make the plastic "puff out" more to give a bigger air space between the two layers.
I have plenty of plastic left from glazing the greenhouse. I can use that to cover tanks.
What do you guys think of the ceiling fan idea?
The shutters are sealed tight with polystyrene foam that I cut just a hair larger than the shutter opening. The foam sheet is press fit into the opening. The door is good too. (I never had anything over the shutters last year)
I also opened up the little blower that inflates the plastic to make the plastic "puff out" more to give a bigger air space between the two layers.
I have plenty of plastic left from glazing the greenhouse. I can use that to cover tanks.
Why not add a propane water heater to directly heat the water? Are the tanks interconnected, or can they be? Then with a pump curculate through the water heater and back through the tanks. This would be much more efficient then heating the air and letting that transfer heat to the tanks. I personally still don't see the need to heat/cool the air, the corals don't care...
The main question would be the duribility of the steel, but steel is used in marine enviroments all the time - usually in an anode cathode situation. This is not my area, maybe someone else can help.
Or, perhaps the chemical industry has some in titanium already - this would be ideal.
The main question would be the duribility of the steel, but steel is used in marine enviroments all the time - usually in an anode cathode situation. This is not my area, maybe someone else can help.
Or, perhaps the chemical industry has some in titanium already - this would be ideal.
jnarowe
New member
gone for 3 hours and look what happens!
First of all, you must get back to basics on condensation. That is a natural process that equalizes temperatures between two areas. Condensation on the inside of the GH walls is shifting heat to the outside in an attempt to equalize temperatures.
next, those homes with the water tubes work quite well in some instances, but the tubes are totally sealed. I have a friend in SF who has them in his house. The house is built into the side of a hill, so temperatures are quite different between levels of the home. The water tubes essentially circulate the ambient temperature to equalize between floors. If the house is not heated, the tubes only work from direct sunlight. It is still an additional help and should keep climate costs lower ina properly designed system. As I said before, open bodies of water have limited ability to hold heat. They do so better than air, but not better than closed systems or solids.
The rock vat is warmer in part because it is on or close to the ground, and transfers heat tothe ground. During the night, the ground exchanges heat with the vat and so the vat stays warmer than the raised tanks. Here you have multiple factors that help that particular tank: Contact with a solid that stores heat well, larger body of water, and closer to the heating system.
Going back a few posts you answer your own question: You state that you know your evaporation pads cool the GH. Evaporation is not really a cooling mechanism but an exchange process. So one side of the equation gets cooler while the other side gets warmer. Simple enough right?
The confusions comes from assuming that when your tanks are avaporating that the GH gets warmer by passing the heat into the GH air. What actually happens is when the tanks evaporate, the moisture collects on the inside of the GH walls, and the heat is exchanged to the outside air.
Other issues: It does sound like your furnace may not be operating properly and it could be something as simple as a short. With all the moisture that's bound to happen. If I understand correctly, your furnace is using GH air to fire with and that could be a problem as well because it will use the oxygen available inside the GH. That may be having some affect on your temperature as well as your corals. IN ANY CASE, you MUST keep the furnace TOTALLY CLEAN. Blow it out, vacuum it, and make damn sure that the filters are cleaned every month. This alone has a huge impact on the ability of the furnace to do its job up to spec!!!!
Lets look at a common example: In a typically constructed home we insulate the walls and ceilings to keep the heat inside the house. But what do we do with the attic? We ventilate it. Why? If we don't ventilate the attic, moisture will collect and rot the roof and supports. Why is the moisture there? It's the exchange of heat between the inside and outside of the house.
Your heater may have worked well last year with a particular load, but when you added all the other tanks, you increased that load quite a bit, and the heater may not be able to keep up with it. Therefore, adding closed barrels of water may not help. You might actually have a horsepower problem at this point.
I am curious why you did not install a heat pump rather than all this other stuff. I would think that would actually be more cost effective and keep the temp. MUCH more stable than everything you are putting this GH through now. The way a heat pump works would benefit the tanks in that it won't change the temp. by too much at one time, and it would keep it very stable at whatever set temp. you program it with.
You could exchange heat from the exhaust also, but I am more concerned about buring the air out of the GH. Maybe there isn't enough O2 by the end of the night and the furnace isn't firing well because of that.
cseeton makes two interesting comments. Turning off the fan may actually help keep the tanks warmer because the furnace air is evaporating the tanks much faster. That idea has some real practical application. Example: My wife comes from a Mid-Western family that apparently didn't have insulation in their home. When it gets hot outside, she opens up all the windows. That is wholey retarded. Keeping the windows closed keeps the heat exchange to a minimum and the house is cooler, especially when you have a heat pump!
the other comment I find interesting is, "Thermal mass is all the same." But it is used in a reverse argument. Well, thermal mass is the same for items of the same mass. A rock has a lot more mass than a bowl of water, and will retain and radiate heat much longer. Don't believe it? Put a rock and a bowl of water in the oven at 350F for 1 hour. Take them out and set them on the stove top. In 1/2 hour measure the heat. Which is hotter?
A ceiling fan will just increase your evaporation. Don't do it. Covering the tanks would be my first fix (and easiest). that may solve the problem entirely. It's hard to give advice without being there in person but you should consider the capacity of your furnace, and possibly a second layer of skin on the GH that is NOT attached to the current one. In that scenario you would hang or otherwise support a second skin and recycle the heat that is transferred by evaporation back into the GH. You could make that the intake for your furnace and lower its load. With the second skin, you might also experiment with shutting down the fan entirely.
Other ways to heat the GH could be:
--Laying radiant heat tubes into the ground and passively heating the ground and tanks.
--Setting the tanks on concrete slabs that store heat or even use radiant tubes in the slabs.
--Using an inline tankless water heater like I have in my home to heat the tanks and keep the tanks covered during the Winter. The particular water heater I have is especially good for this application for several reasons, but it is too lengthy to write about, mostly because I am tired of writing. If you want to know more about it, PM me and we'll talk. I will make a BOLD statement and say that using this water heater would significantly lower your heating costs and remove your Winter hassles. A heat pump might too if it was installed in an unconventional manner.
First of all, you must get back to basics on condensation. That is a natural process that equalizes temperatures between two areas. Condensation on the inside of the GH walls is shifting heat to the outside in an attempt to equalize temperatures.
next, those homes with the water tubes work quite well in some instances, but the tubes are totally sealed. I have a friend in SF who has them in his house. The house is built into the side of a hill, so temperatures are quite different between levels of the home. The water tubes essentially circulate the ambient temperature to equalize between floors. If the house is not heated, the tubes only work from direct sunlight. It is still an additional help and should keep climate costs lower ina properly designed system. As I said before, open bodies of water have limited ability to hold heat. They do so better than air, but not better than closed systems or solids.
The rock vat is warmer in part because it is on or close to the ground, and transfers heat tothe ground. During the night, the ground exchanges heat with the vat and so the vat stays warmer than the raised tanks. Here you have multiple factors that help that particular tank: Contact with a solid that stores heat well, larger body of water, and closer to the heating system.
Going back a few posts you answer your own question: You state that you know your evaporation pads cool the GH. Evaporation is not really a cooling mechanism but an exchange process. So one side of the equation gets cooler while the other side gets warmer. Simple enough right?
The confusions comes from assuming that when your tanks are avaporating that the GH gets warmer by passing the heat into the GH air. What actually happens is when the tanks evaporate, the moisture collects on the inside of the GH walls, and the heat is exchanged to the outside air.
Other issues: It does sound like your furnace may not be operating properly and it could be something as simple as a short. With all the moisture that's bound to happen. If I understand correctly, your furnace is using GH air to fire with and that could be a problem as well because it will use the oxygen available inside the GH. That may be having some affect on your temperature as well as your corals. IN ANY CASE, you MUST keep the furnace TOTALLY CLEAN. Blow it out, vacuum it, and make damn sure that the filters are cleaned every month. This alone has a huge impact on the ability of the furnace to do its job up to spec!!!!
Lets look at a common example: In a typically constructed home we insulate the walls and ceilings to keep the heat inside the house. But what do we do with the attic? We ventilate it. Why? If we don't ventilate the attic, moisture will collect and rot the roof and supports. Why is the moisture there? It's the exchange of heat between the inside and outside of the house.
Your heater may have worked well last year with a particular load, but when you added all the other tanks, you increased that load quite a bit, and the heater may not be able to keep up with it. Therefore, adding closed barrels of water may not help. You might actually have a horsepower problem at this point.
I am curious why you did not install a heat pump rather than all this other stuff. I would think that would actually be more cost effective and keep the temp. MUCH more stable than everything you are putting this GH through now. The way a heat pump works would benefit the tanks in that it won't change the temp. by too much at one time, and it would keep it very stable at whatever set temp. you program it with.
You could exchange heat from the exhaust also, but I am more concerned about buring the air out of the GH. Maybe there isn't enough O2 by the end of the night and the furnace isn't firing well because of that.
cseeton makes two interesting comments. Turning off the fan may actually help keep the tanks warmer because the furnace air is evaporating the tanks much faster. That idea has some real practical application. Example: My wife comes from a Mid-Western family that apparently didn't have insulation in their home. When it gets hot outside, she opens up all the windows. That is wholey retarded. Keeping the windows closed keeps the heat exchange to a minimum and the house is cooler, especially when you have a heat pump!
the other comment I find interesting is, "Thermal mass is all the same." But it is used in a reverse argument. Well, thermal mass is the same for items of the same mass. A rock has a lot more mass than a bowl of water, and will retain and radiate heat much longer. Don't believe it? Put a rock and a bowl of water in the oven at 350F for 1 hour. Take them out and set them on the stove top. In 1/2 hour measure the heat. Which is hotter?
A ceiling fan will just increase your evaporation. Don't do it. Covering the tanks would be my first fix (and easiest). that may solve the problem entirely. It's hard to give advice without being there in person but you should consider the capacity of your furnace, and possibly a second layer of skin on the GH that is NOT attached to the current one. In that scenario you would hang or otherwise support a second skin and recycle the heat that is transferred by evaporation back into the GH. You could make that the intake for your furnace and lower its load. With the second skin, you might also experiment with shutting down the fan entirely.
Other ways to heat the GH could be:
--Laying radiant heat tubes into the ground and passively heating the ground and tanks.
--Setting the tanks on concrete slabs that store heat or even use radiant tubes in the slabs.
--Using an inline tankless water heater like I have in my home to heat the tanks and keep the tanks covered during the Winter. The particular water heater I have is especially good for this application for several reasons, but it is too lengthy to write about, mostly because I am tired of writing. If you want to know more about it, PM me and we'll talk. I will make a BOLD statement and say that using this water heater would significantly lower your heating costs and remove your Winter hassles. A heat pump might too if it was installed in an unconventional manner.
Since this is an education thread...
Thermal mass is always the same. Let's define the thermal mass of an object as its mass times its specific heat (m*cp). So, if we heat to objects up to the same temperature and they have the same thermal mass (usually different volumes due to their densities) both objects will give off the same about of heat. A kilowatt is a kilowatt...
So why does a rock feel warmer longer? Well, that has to do with its thermal conductivity (the Biot number situation). The rock once it gets to temperature is going to want to hang on to it longer and feel like it is the better thermal mass. Rather it is going to release the same about of energy, just do it in a longer time.
The key is to match what is needed with the proper substance. If you need a quick release, silver or copper are the best, if you want a slow release, use concrete.
Why do we prefer water? Well, first off, it is cheap. Next is the fact that we can store it in insulated containers (of some convenient shape) and it will hold the heat as long as the insulation will allow it. In addition, we can have a fast release by circulating it in tubes. Its high heat capacity also helps. So, we can have slow release, fast release as well as a location specific release by circulation.
Thermal mass is all the same. It just depends on how you want to use it. Sometimes concrete is best, sometimes metals, and more often water is used due to its flexibility - not because it is always the best.
Oh, if you put a bowl of water and a rock in the oven at 350F for an hour, the reason that the rock will be hot longer is becasue the water boiled off.... :lol:
Thermal mass is always the same. Let's define the thermal mass of an object as its mass times its specific heat (m*cp). So, if we heat to objects up to the same temperature and they have the same thermal mass (usually different volumes due to their densities) both objects will give off the same about of heat. A kilowatt is a kilowatt...
So why does a rock feel warmer longer? Well, that has to do with its thermal conductivity (the Biot number situation). The rock once it gets to temperature is going to want to hang on to it longer and feel like it is the better thermal mass. Rather it is going to release the same about of energy, just do it in a longer time.
The key is to match what is needed with the proper substance. If you need a quick release, silver or copper are the best, if you want a slow release, use concrete.
Why do we prefer water? Well, first off, it is cheap. Next is the fact that we can store it in insulated containers (of some convenient shape) and it will hold the heat as long as the insulation will allow it. In addition, we can have a fast release by circulating it in tubes. Its high heat capacity also helps. So, we can have slow release, fast release as well as a location specific release by circulation.
Thermal mass is all the same. It just depends on how you want to use it. Sometimes concrete is best, sometimes metals, and more often water is used due to its flexibility - not because it is always the best.
Oh, if you put a bowl of water and a rock in the oven at 350F for an hour, the reason that the rock will be hot longer is becasue the water boiled off.... :lol:
jnarowe
New member
well understood here cseeton. The issue is that the masses of water are giving up the heat too quickly because of evaporation much the same as a bowl of water boiling off. Then the heat is stransfered outside through condensation, and the GH is a mad cycle of heat loss. The cement would pass heat more directly to the tank over time, and the tank temp would remain much more stable right?
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Please try to remember that I have no expertise in physics or HVAC or enthalpy processes.... I'm just a guy wanting to understand a few principles and frag a few corals. I think I'm pretty smart in allot of areas and I can learn quickly, but I don't have the firsthand knowledge in many of these areas to come up with the answers/solutions without help.
I did go out and ...
1) Turned off the one HAF fan that was running. this seemed to make sense to me, and more than one of you guys mentioned it. More airflow would mean more evap from the tanks and hence more heat loss from the tanks. (a few months back, I was talking about turning two of the HAF fans around to push air from the evap pads towards the exhaust fan because I thought the two fans on the east side of the gh were pushing air at the pads and interfering with the pad's function...it was Calfo who recommended that I keep the fans running to make that "racetrack" effect and mentioned that it was good for heat exchange in winter. Plus the "racetrack" effect was the original recommendation from Atlas. I had also noticed last winter that the heat inside the gh seemed a little unbalanced from side to side...with the side the furnace is on being warmer. I thought by running one fan from the opposite corner, that would push heat down the cooler side of the gh and balance out the temp. So, those are the reasons why I had it running. Those reasons also seemed to make sense at the time too.)
2) Cleaned the heat exchanger on the furnace and the fan on the furnace. This also seemed to make sense to me. If the exchanger is covered in dust, it won't let off as much heat and may get hot enough to trigger a limit that shuts off the burner to avoid overheating the furnace. After 13 months of operation in what is basically an "outdoor" environment, there probably wasn't a tablespoon total of dust that was on the exchanger and fan, and it didn't make any difference in the way the furnace is running. I checked the operation of the flue vent and it was drawing well. I'll get back to the furnace issue in a minute.
3) Covered all of the tanks with clear poly I had left over from the gh plastic. Also seemed to make sense and I think all three of you have mentioned it. Covering the tank means there won't be as much evap and hence not as much heat loss.
Please bear in mind that I am not trying to discount anyone's ideas here. I am just looking for answers and thinking out load so you guys can see what my thoughts are, much like y'all are doing with me.
OK. I think for the same reason that turning off the one HAF fan made sense to me, NOT using the ceiling fan also makes sense. Less airflow = less heat loss from the tanks. I was just thinking that it might help circulate the heated air from the ceiling back down to the level of the tanks.
The propane water heater idea... I'm sure that would work and work well. But wouldn't it take more energy (in this case, propane) to heat the water than to heat air??? Almost every large fishroom I have ever visited had no heaters in the tanks, they climate controlled the room temperature. Also, the tanks are not connected, but, of course they could be. They are pvc and would be very easy to connect. I have gone on at least two rants in this thread about why I don't want them connected and have explained to many people by PM when we have been discussing other topics, so I will not repeat the rationals about wanting to keep monospecific tanks. That is just something I will have to accept and work around.
The condensation principle sounds easy to understand if I think of it like jnarowe says...it's just temps trying to equalize. I never realized that the condensation would be transferring heat out of the greenhouse. The plastic covering I just put over the tanks should help with that then...right? Less evap from the tanks = less condensation on the walls = less heat transfer through the condensation. I should also mention that the gh already has two layers of plastic covering (a "second skin"). There is a small blower that takes air from inside the gh and blows it into the space between the layers of plastic to inflate and insulate. It was also supposed to help alleviate the condensation issues.
It's not hard for me to understand that a closed system will hold heat better than an open system. Open systems would have more evap and hence more heat loss.
Now for the furnace issue. It is very suspect to me that the burner keeps firing then shutting off before the desired temp is reached. This is happening all the time, all day and all night...well, if the sun is out and it's clear skies, the furnace isn't running so it isn't happening then. If there wasn't enough O2 in the gh, shouldn't I be feeling some effects from a hypoxic environment? shortness of breath? dizzyness? When I got done cleaning it today, I looked up into the burner area. I noticed that the flames are dark orange and shooting up into the exchange tubes about 5 or 6 inches. I went back to my website (page 6) and looked at the pics of the furnace burners when I first fired it up and the flames were a nice pretty blue with whitish-yellow tip and maybe three inches tall at the most. So maybe this is a furnace issue after all. I would imagine there is some kind of adjustment that can be done to the gas valve to correct this situation, but I'll have to get the manual out and look to see if the procedure is outlined in there. I have set up a few stoves in my time and I'm hoping the adjustment is similarly simple. BTW, there are no filters on this furnace. There are some pics of it way back in the thread and on my web site (pg 5 and 6), but it is one of those Modine hanging furnaces. Burner on the bottom, heat exchanger above that, fan in back of the exchanger and flu vent at the top, nothing fancy. So, I'm hoping that will turn out to be the problem and all of this discussion will be moot, but just in case, let's continue.
Next, I really don't care if a bowl of water or a rock holds heat longer. I can't grow corals in a tank filled with stone or iron, so the water is the focus here. It all sounds to me a little bit like "what's heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers". On the other hand, if I can get the air temp up where it is supposed to be, the water should be where it's supposed to be, and all of this using this and that to radiate heat will be moot. I'm not trying to upset either one of you two, but I am ignorant (don't know) of the processes you guys are talking about and it needs to be a little simpler for me to understand. I understand "if I have an air temp of about 86 F, I will have water temp around 80" (or within a few degrees of that.) I hope you can understand what I'm getting at and I'm not trying to instigate anything when I say that.
I did consider, and even plan for, putting radiant tubes in the ground before I started building the gh. It was a system that used a household water heater to heat the water. After talking with several people, I was convinced that it takes more energy to heat water than air (like I asked above), and again, I visited several greenhouses and dozens "fishrooms" over the years of research, but none of them heated the water directly. They all said it was too expensive compared to heating the air.
I didn't use a heat pump because 1) I didn't (and still don't) know too much of anything about these kinds of systems, 2) I had to rely on information from people who either are doing or had done this or something very similar, plus the information from my gh supplier, plus consider the expense to get this project off of the ground and started up, 3) those of us who are out here pioneering this kind of operation don't necessarily have as much knowledge as maybe somebody with experience in the field would. We try to find out as much as we can, talk to as many people as we can, search and research, but at some point, we have to take a step forward and go for it. When I have several people running greenhouses in places like PA, IN, MI, OH tell me that a furnace like this will do the job, and I go see these greenhouses and that's what they are all running, and my greenhouse supplier says a 100,000 btu/h furnace will do the job, I get the 150,000 btu/h furnace. By the time I/we learn about some of the other options available, it is too late in the process to retrofit, or the options are just too expensive for the start up costs.
Anyway, I really appreciate you guys being involved in the thread and sharing all of your knowledge right out in the open and in front of everybody. I pray that I didn't p**s anybody off during my rants because that is not my intent.
Well, I better go get my furnace manual out and check about those flames.
I did go out and ...
1) Turned off the one HAF fan that was running. this seemed to make sense to me, and more than one of you guys mentioned it. More airflow would mean more evap from the tanks and hence more heat loss from the tanks. (a few months back, I was talking about turning two of the HAF fans around to push air from the evap pads towards the exhaust fan because I thought the two fans on the east side of the gh were pushing air at the pads and interfering with the pad's function...it was Calfo who recommended that I keep the fans running to make that "racetrack" effect and mentioned that it was good for heat exchange in winter. Plus the "racetrack" effect was the original recommendation from Atlas. I had also noticed last winter that the heat inside the gh seemed a little unbalanced from side to side...with the side the furnace is on being warmer. I thought by running one fan from the opposite corner, that would push heat down the cooler side of the gh and balance out the temp. So, those are the reasons why I had it running. Those reasons also seemed to make sense at the time too.)
2) Cleaned the heat exchanger on the furnace and the fan on the furnace. This also seemed to make sense to me. If the exchanger is covered in dust, it won't let off as much heat and may get hot enough to trigger a limit that shuts off the burner to avoid overheating the furnace. After 13 months of operation in what is basically an "outdoor" environment, there probably wasn't a tablespoon total of dust that was on the exchanger and fan, and it didn't make any difference in the way the furnace is running. I checked the operation of the flue vent and it was drawing well. I'll get back to the furnace issue in a minute.
3) Covered all of the tanks with clear poly I had left over from the gh plastic. Also seemed to make sense and I think all three of you have mentioned it. Covering the tank means there won't be as much evap and hence not as much heat loss.
Please bear in mind that I am not trying to discount anyone's ideas here. I am just looking for answers and thinking out load so you guys can see what my thoughts are, much like y'all are doing with me.
OK. I think for the same reason that turning off the one HAF fan made sense to me, NOT using the ceiling fan also makes sense. Less airflow = less heat loss from the tanks. I was just thinking that it might help circulate the heated air from the ceiling back down to the level of the tanks.
The propane water heater idea... I'm sure that would work and work well. But wouldn't it take more energy (in this case, propane) to heat the water than to heat air??? Almost every large fishroom I have ever visited had no heaters in the tanks, they climate controlled the room temperature. Also, the tanks are not connected, but, of course they could be. They are pvc and would be very easy to connect. I have gone on at least two rants in this thread about why I don't want them connected and have explained to many people by PM when we have been discussing other topics, so I will not repeat the rationals about wanting to keep monospecific tanks. That is just something I will have to accept and work around.
The condensation principle sounds easy to understand if I think of it like jnarowe says...it's just temps trying to equalize. I never realized that the condensation would be transferring heat out of the greenhouse. The plastic covering I just put over the tanks should help with that then...right? Less evap from the tanks = less condensation on the walls = less heat transfer through the condensation. I should also mention that the gh already has two layers of plastic covering (a "second skin"). There is a small blower that takes air from inside the gh and blows it into the space between the layers of plastic to inflate and insulate. It was also supposed to help alleviate the condensation issues.
It's not hard for me to understand that a closed system will hold heat better than an open system. Open systems would have more evap and hence more heat loss.
Now for the furnace issue. It is very suspect to me that the burner keeps firing then shutting off before the desired temp is reached. This is happening all the time, all day and all night...well, if the sun is out and it's clear skies, the furnace isn't running so it isn't happening then. If there wasn't enough O2 in the gh, shouldn't I be feeling some effects from a hypoxic environment? shortness of breath? dizzyness? When I got done cleaning it today, I looked up into the burner area. I noticed that the flames are dark orange and shooting up into the exchange tubes about 5 or 6 inches. I went back to my website (page 6) and looked at the pics of the furnace burners when I first fired it up and the flames were a nice pretty blue with whitish-yellow tip and maybe three inches tall at the most. So maybe this is a furnace issue after all. I would imagine there is some kind of adjustment that can be done to the gas valve to correct this situation, but I'll have to get the manual out and look to see if the procedure is outlined in there. I have set up a few stoves in my time and I'm hoping the adjustment is similarly simple. BTW, there are no filters on this furnace. There are some pics of it way back in the thread and on my web site (pg 5 and 6), but it is one of those Modine hanging furnaces. Burner on the bottom, heat exchanger above that, fan in back of the exchanger and flu vent at the top, nothing fancy. So, I'm hoping that will turn out to be the problem and all of this discussion will be moot, but just in case, let's continue.
Next, I really don't care if a bowl of water or a rock holds heat longer. I can't grow corals in a tank filled with stone or iron, so the water is the focus here. It all sounds to me a little bit like "what's heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers". On the other hand, if I can get the air temp up where it is supposed to be, the water should be where it's supposed to be, and all of this using this and that to radiate heat will be moot. I'm not trying to upset either one of you two, but I am ignorant (don't know) of the processes you guys are talking about and it needs to be a little simpler for me to understand. I understand "if I have an air temp of about 86 F, I will have water temp around 80" (or within a few degrees of that.) I hope you can understand what I'm getting at and I'm not trying to instigate anything when I say that.
I did consider, and even plan for, putting radiant tubes in the ground before I started building the gh. It was a system that used a household water heater to heat the water. After talking with several people, I was convinced that it takes more energy to heat water than air (like I asked above), and again, I visited several greenhouses and dozens "fishrooms" over the years of research, but none of them heated the water directly. They all said it was too expensive compared to heating the air.
I didn't use a heat pump because 1) I didn't (and still don't) know too much of anything about these kinds of systems, 2) I had to rely on information from people who either are doing or had done this or something very similar, plus the information from my gh supplier, plus consider the expense to get this project off of the ground and started up, 3) those of us who are out here pioneering this kind of operation don't necessarily have as much knowledge as maybe somebody with experience in the field would. We try to find out as much as we can, talk to as many people as we can, search and research, but at some point, we have to take a step forward and go for it. When I have several people running greenhouses in places like PA, IN, MI, OH tell me that a furnace like this will do the job, and I go see these greenhouses and that's what they are all running, and my greenhouse supplier says a 100,000 btu/h furnace will do the job, I get the 150,000 btu/h furnace. By the time I/we learn about some of the other options available, it is too late in the process to retrofit, or the options are just too expensive for the start up costs.
Anyway, I really appreciate you guys being involved in the thread and sharing all of your knowledge right out in the open and in front of everybody. I pray that I didn't p**s anybody off during my rants because that is not my intent.
Well, I better go get my furnace manual out and check about those flames.
No worries here...
Don't worry about the heat pump, I also wouldn't recommend it here in Illinois - unless - you went to a ground sourced unit and we have covered that.
For the thermal mass situation. Get all the barrels and fill them with water, these will tend to stabilize your temps a little better, but as H2Oeng pointed out, it will take some time for them to come to temp. As you build more tanks, drain the barrels to make room. If you can paint them black, then they will perform better and you can utilize the sun more. You can scrap the paint off later as nothing really sticks to polyethylene (I used a pressure washer once to clean a table my wife painted the wrong color).
It is always better to directly heat things. Any time you heat one thing (air) to heat something else (water) there are efficiencies in each exchange. Lets take your furnace which is probably 80% efficient at its best, the transfer from the air to the tanks is probably around 50%, (I'm an optimist, because some of the heat goes to the ground and some through the walls), so for every 100,000Btu/h you might get 40,000 into the water. If you get the Bosch tankless water heater, which claims 87% efficiency, you would get 87,000 Btu/h.
Really though, like all things, you need to decide which is the most cost effective path over a realistic lifetime (how long the stainless steel heat exchanger would hold up). It is more expensive to heat water than air, if you only consider the intial cost of equipment, if you are smart (cheap) use a 3-5 year expense timeframe and include your propane cost - compare those numbers.
I understand your reasons for not interconnecting the tanks; however, you still could interconnect the tanks through tubing and dropping a titanium coil in each of the tanks. The water heater option would last alot longer in this configuration.
Don't worry about the heat pump, I also wouldn't recommend it here in Illinois - unless - you went to a ground sourced unit and we have covered that.
For the thermal mass situation. Get all the barrels and fill them with water, these will tend to stabilize your temps a little better, but as H2Oeng pointed out, it will take some time for them to come to temp. As you build more tanks, drain the barrels to make room. If you can paint them black, then they will perform better and you can utilize the sun more. You can scrap the paint off later as nothing really sticks to polyethylene (I used a pressure washer once to clean a table my wife painted the wrong color).
It is always better to directly heat things. Any time you heat one thing (air) to heat something else (water) there are efficiencies in each exchange. Lets take your furnace which is probably 80% efficient at its best, the transfer from the air to the tanks is probably around 50%, (I'm an optimist, because some of the heat goes to the ground and some through the walls), so for every 100,000Btu/h you might get 40,000 into the water. If you get the Bosch tankless water heater, which claims 87% efficiency, you would get 87,000 Btu/h.
Really though, like all things, you need to decide which is the most cost effective path over a realistic lifetime (how long the stainless steel heat exchanger would hold up). It is more expensive to heat water than air, if you only consider the intial cost of equipment, if you are smart (cheap) use a 3-5 year expense timeframe and include your propane cost - compare those numbers.
I understand your reasons for not interconnecting the tanks; however, you still could interconnect the tanks through tubing and dropping a titanium coil in each of the tanks. The water heater option would last alot longer in this configuration.
jnarowe
New member
Sounds like you are moving ahead. maybe the moisture in the air has caused some corrosion in the burner or there is, like you say, some way to adjust it.
BTW, my tankless water heater is not gas. It's electric. because my water comes in at a very low temp. I had to buy a top-line heater and it has some special features that make it extremely energy efficient. It is cheaper than gas at current rates. I don't have gas at my place anyway.
I am not so sure that heating the air is the most efficient and reliable/stable way to heat the tanks, but if so many others doing it have centered on this method, there must be something to it. I would probably go in a different direction but not after I had already built everything. And I could be wrong about it! I often am.
There is a well known restaurant owner in town that owns several different places. He took over a place a few doors down and re-did the joint as a bar & grill. He made what I consider to be two major errors in his design in that he installed the ice machine at the dish station and he installed air-conditioning in the kitchen.
To me that's insane. There's no way an ice machine will perform correctly in the high ambient heat of a dish station and trying to cool a kitchen is absurd. Spending wads of energy to cool a kitchen is silly and in fact he doesn't use it because it is totally ineffective. Commercial kitchens have a slight negative pressure created by the exhaust fans so that heat, odor, etc. exit the building rather than migrate to the seating area. The only sensible way to cool a kitchen is to remove the heat, not cool the hot air.
The good news is that I sell him a lot of ice!
I absolutely would cover the tanks and clearly understand why you have seperate tanks for various species of coral. If you had them all in the same system, they would chemically compete and that would stunt their growth at the very least.
Food for thought: If you were to ever need to build new tanks, you could pour cement tanks with water lines embedded in them and run them to a heat exchanger. When the tank is too cool, the heater would warm the water, and when it is too hot, an underground coil could cool it. That is essentially how I will be controlling the temp. in my system, sans cement tank. BUT the cement would make it more efficient.
BTW, my tankless water heater is not gas. It's electric. because my water comes in at a very low temp. I had to buy a top-line heater and it has some special features that make it extremely energy efficient. It is cheaper than gas at current rates. I don't have gas at my place anyway.
I am not so sure that heating the air is the most efficient and reliable/stable way to heat the tanks, but if so many others doing it have centered on this method, there must be something to it. I would probably go in a different direction but not after I had already built everything. And I could be wrong about it! I often am.
There is a well known restaurant owner in town that owns several different places. He took over a place a few doors down and re-did the joint as a bar & grill. He made what I consider to be two major errors in his design in that he installed the ice machine at the dish station and he installed air-conditioning in the kitchen.
To me that's insane. There's no way an ice machine will perform correctly in the high ambient heat of a dish station and trying to cool a kitchen is absurd. Spending wads of energy to cool a kitchen is silly and in fact he doesn't use it because it is totally ineffective. Commercial kitchens have a slight negative pressure created by the exhaust fans so that heat, odor, etc. exit the building rather than migrate to the seating area. The only sensible way to cool a kitchen is to remove the heat, not cool the hot air.
The good news is that I sell him a lot of ice!
I absolutely would cover the tanks and clearly understand why you have seperate tanks for various species of coral. If you had them all in the same system, they would chemically compete and that would stunt their growth at the very least.
Food for thought: If you were to ever need to build new tanks, you could pour cement tanks with water lines embedded in them and run them to a heat exchanger. When the tank is too cool, the heater would warm the water, and when it is too hot, an underground coil could cool it. That is essentially how I will be controlling the temp. in my system, sans cement tank. BUT the cement would make it more efficient.
keto
New member
if you have burning yellow flames you heat exchanger is prob pluged up in the top of the cells, not leting it draft all the way , holding to much heat this would explain why you are running on limits all you have is a furnace prob. i work on this stuff every day its what i do for a living, if it keep up last year it should do it this year, you have not added to the load. also i seen in you pics that you have a l.p.tank did you check w/c when you put in the heater should be 11.5 in w/c ,, l.p gas is known for sooting up if not set right, youll need tp pull the burners and clean the inside of the heat exchanger, then it will draft right and run full cycles.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
A couple of other issues I remembered tonight. Every time I walk into the gh, I think to myself...boy it sure feels a heck of a lot warmer than 71. At some point this past summer, I moved the thermometer/hygrometer/barometer/clock unit to the north end of the greenhouse. Last winter it was on the south end, almost directly in the path of the airflow from the furnace (east side). So, I moved it back to the south end tonite and after several minutes, it was reading about 81 F. Then I moved it to the opposite (west) side of the south end and it maybe dropped 1 degree. Back at the north end, I set it so it was not touching any of the framing lumber and it was reading about 76 (behind the furnace). Maybe the thermometer was getting cooled because it was hanging from the framing lumber, which is touching the plastic glazing??? If it is somewhere around 81 at the far end, that would make sense to me why the coolest tank is about 74 (or a hair less) and the tanks closest to the furnace are a little higher. It still doesn't explain why I could run the temp up to 90 inside the gh in -2 degree weather last year and I can't get it above 81 this year, except for the greater quantity of water inside. BUT, the extra water is supposed to make the temps more stable....right???
I did try to adjust the flame from the burner according to the manual and it looks like it really wasn't too far off where it was (or at least it's as good as it can be under the present circumstances). Maybe the pic from last year looked much different because it was taken in daylight??? camera inaccuracy??? About the only other thing I could check on would be the manifold pressure from the propane tank into the gas valve. That requires a manometer with a water column. Needless to say, I don't have one. The pressure regulator on the propane tank was checked and verified when they set the tank last November, so probably not an issue there. Still would like to figure out why the burner is not staying lit long enough to satisfy the thermostat. BTW, there is a tag on the furnace that says..."this unit is equipped with a stainless steel burner". Why they thought there needed to be a sticker to say that, I don't know.
So, looks like tomorrow I fill up a bunch of barrels. They are blue and I probably won't bother painting them. The gh definitely has to be cleaned out and organized because it still looks like a construction zone in there with lumber and pipe and tools laying all over the place.
It does look like the condensation is decreasing after covering the tanks and turning off some of the airlifts. I had taken a couple of sheets of pvc out there earlier today to start building the next tank. They were sitting flat on the stand to warm up and there were small puddles on them from the dripping. The puddles have dried up. There is also less condensation on the plastic at the end of the greenhouse farthest away from the furnace (also farthest away from the tanks). So, we'll see how it goes tonight.
Thanks again for offering the help everybody.
I did try to adjust the flame from the burner according to the manual and it looks like it really wasn't too far off where it was (or at least it's as good as it can be under the present circumstances). Maybe the pic from last year looked much different because it was taken in daylight??? camera inaccuracy??? About the only other thing I could check on would be the manifold pressure from the propane tank into the gas valve. That requires a manometer with a water column. Needless to say, I don't have one. The pressure regulator on the propane tank was checked and verified when they set the tank last November, so probably not an issue there. Still would like to figure out why the burner is not staying lit long enough to satisfy the thermostat. BTW, there is a tag on the furnace that says..."this unit is equipped with a stainless steel burner". Why they thought there needed to be a sticker to say that, I don't know.
So, looks like tomorrow I fill up a bunch of barrels. They are blue and I probably won't bother painting them. The gh definitely has to be cleaned out and organized because it still looks like a construction zone in there with lumber and pipe and tools laying all over the place.
It does look like the condensation is decreasing after covering the tanks and turning off some of the airlifts. I had taken a couple of sheets of pvc out there earlier today to start building the next tank. They were sitting flat on the stand to warm up and there were small puddles on them from the dripping. The puddles have dried up. There is also less condensation on the plastic at the end of the greenhouse farthest away from the furnace (also farthest away from the tanks). So, we'll see how it goes tonight.
Thanks again for offering the help everybody.
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rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
keto- I must be writing my posts when you post yours because I keep missing them.
If the exchanger is "sooted up", would I be able to see it when I look up inside of it from the bottom where the flames are? What do I clean the inside of the exchanger with?
Remember, the furnace can't be shut down for very long either unless I wait for a sunny day. Around here, that might be few weeks! The temp inside drops pretty quickly when the furnace isn't running.
Yes, the company that set the LP tank did check and verify the regulator.
If the exchanger is "sooted up", would I be able to see it when I look up inside of it from the bottom where the flames are? What do I clean the inside of the exchanger with?
Remember, the furnace can't be shut down for very long either unless I wait for a sunny day. Around here, that might be few weeks! The temp inside drops pretty quickly when the furnace isn't running.
Yes, the company that set the LP tank did check and verify the regulator.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Temp check this A.M.
6:30 A.M.
outside temp 19 F. Sun is coming up and not a cloud in the sky.
inside air 76 (but the thermometer is still sitting where I left it last night...on the north end away from the framing and behind the furnace. It has been reading around 70 or 71 most mornings when it was hanging on the framing, so this is not really an accurate comparison of the inside temp. By the same token, moving the thermometer around the greenhouse and realizing that it may not be as cold in there as the thermometer was reading when placed in a certain position, doesn't raise the temps of the tanks either. I don't care what the thermometer measures the inside air to be, it's the thermometer in the tank I worry about. (I really do care what the inside air is, but only as it relates to the tank temp)
LR vat 78
#1 (GSP) 77.5 (up 1/2 of a degree from mid day yesterday)
#2 (Disc.) 77 (up a little over 1 degree)
#3 (Ric) 77 (up 2 degrees)
#4 (Act.) 76 + a hair (up 1 degree plus a hair)
#5 (Sarc.) almost 76 (up 2 degrees)
Pretty darn good compared to what the temps have been on the mornings when it has been in the teens at night. Heck every tank actually gained over night instead of dropping! That Sarcophyton tank had been down to 71 on two mornings and less than 74 on several mornings. To see it just below 76 thrilled me to no end. Now, I really have no way of knowing for sure what caused the change since several things were changed yesterday. Bigger airspace between the two layers of plastic covering of the gh, less air movement from turning off the HAF fan. turning off some of the airlifts, and covering the tanks with plastic. I am guessing that covering the tanks had the most effect because I didn't have to top off the tanks this AM. They were all pretty darn close to where I filled them when I topped off last night.
It also would seem that the tank closest to the furnace is receiving as much heat as it is losing just because it is closest. It had the smallest amount of temp gain being covered, of course, I didn't turn off any of that tanks air lifts either.
Now, I am still sure there is some issue with the furnace. The manual does indeed state that the burner should light and stay lit until the thermostat is satisfied.
I did look up through the heat exchanger and I don't see a bit of soot or any obstructons. I reached down through the top of the heat exchanger and didn't get any soot on my fingers either.
Troubleshooting:
Not enough heat
1) unit cycling on high limit
a) obstruction/leaks in the duct system. I don't have a duct system, so that's out.
b) main pressure set too high. Have to get a service person to check it. I don't have a water column (manometer) tester. I know wc can be converted to psi and 10" -14" wc is about 1/2 psi, but I don't have a gauge for that either. Any of you guys know how to make a water column gauge??? It is supposed to screw into a 1/8" FIP hole in the gas valve.
c) blower motor not engaged. My blower motor is running fine..all the time.
d) loose belt. My blower fan is direct drive from the motor shaft. No belt.
e) blower speed too low. I doubt it, but I do have a tachometer that is used for radio controlled planes to check propeller speed. It senses the incoming light and counts how many times the light is blocked by the propeller each second. I'm sure it would work for the furnace fan, but I haven't used it in many years and I'm sure it needs new batteries. If all else fails, I'll check it, but it doesn't seem likely that the fan is turning slow enough to cause problems if I can feel the breeze 36 feet away.
f) blocked/damaged venting system. The flue is drawing well. I can look through the furnace and visualize the flue pipe to the point where it turns upwards outside the building. I went outside and unscrewed the cap from the bottom of the 'T' and could look straight up to the top of the pipe. No damage. No obstructions. A few dead lady bugs in the cap.
g) Air distribution baffle removed. This is for certain units that are set up with multiple furnaces pushing heat into a central box with a fan. Doesn't apply.
h) defective high limit switch. I suppose this is possible. I located it and removed it. pretty simple looking device. Short round cylinder, two wires, small metal diaphragm. When the furnace gets too hot, the diaphragm expands and pushes downwards to make contact inside the cylinder which shuts off the gas supply to the burners. Burner goes out, unit cools down, diaphragm moves back up and turns back on the gas to the burners. Maybe the little diaphragm has weakened and is "overreacting". The manual also says the switch shouldn't activate unless something serious is wrong and to refer to the section titled "not enough heat". That's what were doing.
2)Main pressure too low. Again, I don't have the equipment to check it.
3) too much outside air. Doesn't apply here.
4) Thermostat malfunction. Thermostat works fine. Turn it up, it calls for heat, turn it down, it shuts the unit off.
5) Gas controls wired incorrectly. NOT.
6) Unit undersized. /shrugs. I don't really think so. If the system designers at Atlas say I need a 100,000 btu/h unit and I get a 150,000 btu/h unit....Plus like we have been saying, I could run the inside temp up to 90 last year.
So, looks like I am going to have to replace the limit switch and if that fails, find someone with a manometer.
In any event, it is working good enough and with covering the tanks, looks like the corals will be happy(er). Monday, I am going to order the commonly replaced items like gas valve, limit switch, pressure switch, transformer, blower motor, time delay, and thermocouple just to have them on hand.
6:30 A.M.
outside temp 19 F. Sun is coming up and not a cloud in the sky.
inside air 76 (but the thermometer is still sitting where I left it last night...on the north end away from the framing and behind the furnace. It has been reading around 70 or 71 most mornings when it was hanging on the framing, so this is not really an accurate comparison of the inside temp. By the same token, moving the thermometer around the greenhouse and realizing that it may not be as cold in there as the thermometer was reading when placed in a certain position, doesn't raise the temps of the tanks either. I don't care what the thermometer measures the inside air to be, it's the thermometer in the tank I worry about. (I really do care what the inside air is, but only as it relates to the tank temp)
LR vat 78
#1 (GSP) 77.5 (up 1/2 of a degree from mid day yesterday)
#2 (Disc.) 77 (up a little over 1 degree)
#3 (Ric) 77 (up 2 degrees)
#4 (Act.) 76 + a hair (up 1 degree plus a hair)
#5 (Sarc.) almost 76 (up 2 degrees)
Pretty darn good compared to what the temps have been on the mornings when it has been in the teens at night. Heck every tank actually gained over night instead of dropping! That Sarcophyton tank had been down to 71 on two mornings and less than 74 on several mornings. To see it just below 76 thrilled me to no end. Now, I really have no way of knowing for sure what caused the change since several things were changed yesterday. Bigger airspace between the two layers of plastic covering of the gh, less air movement from turning off the HAF fan. turning off some of the airlifts, and covering the tanks with plastic. I am guessing that covering the tanks had the most effect because I didn't have to top off the tanks this AM. They were all pretty darn close to where I filled them when I topped off last night.
It also would seem that the tank closest to the furnace is receiving as much heat as it is losing just because it is closest. It had the smallest amount of temp gain being covered, of course, I didn't turn off any of that tanks air lifts either.
Now, I am still sure there is some issue with the furnace. The manual does indeed state that the burner should light and stay lit until the thermostat is satisfied.
I did look up through the heat exchanger and I don't see a bit of soot or any obstructons. I reached down through the top of the heat exchanger and didn't get any soot on my fingers either.
Troubleshooting:
Not enough heat
1) unit cycling on high limit
a) obstruction/leaks in the duct system. I don't have a duct system, so that's out.
b) main pressure set too high. Have to get a service person to check it. I don't have a water column (manometer) tester. I know wc can be converted to psi and 10" -14" wc is about 1/2 psi, but I don't have a gauge for that either. Any of you guys know how to make a water column gauge??? It is supposed to screw into a 1/8" FIP hole in the gas valve.
c) blower motor not engaged. My blower motor is running fine..all the time.
d) loose belt. My blower fan is direct drive from the motor shaft. No belt.
e) blower speed too low. I doubt it, but I do have a tachometer that is used for radio controlled planes to check propeller speed. It senses the incoming light and counts how many times the light is blocked by the propeller each second. I'm sure it would work for the furnace fan, but I haven't used it in many years and I'm sure it needs new batteries. If all else fails, I'll check it, but it doesn't seem likely that the fan is turning slow enough to cause problems if I can feel the breeze 36 feet away.
f) blocked/damaged venting system. The flue is drawing well. I can look through the furnace and visualize the flue pipe to the point where it turns upwards outside the building. I went outside and unscrewed the cap from the bottom of the 'T' and could look straight up to the top of the pipe. No damage. No obstructions. A few dead lady bugs in the cap.
g) Air distribution baffle removed. This is for certain units that are set up with multiple furnaces pushing heat into a central box with a fan. Doesn't apply.
h) defective high limit switch. I suppose this is possible. I located it and removed it. pretty simple looking device. Short round cylinder, two wires, small metal diaphragm. When the furnace gets too hot, the diaphragm expands and pushes downwards to make contact inside the cylinder which shuts off the gas supply to the burners. Burner goes out, unit cools down, diaphragm moves back up and turns back on the gas to the burners. Maybe the little diaphragm has weakened and is "overreacting". The manual also says the switch shouldn't activate unless something serious is wrong and to refer to the section titled "not enough heat". That's what were doing.
2)Main pressure too low. Again, I don't have the equipment to check it.
3) too much outside air. Doesn't apply here.
4) Thermostat malfunction. Thermostat works fine. Turn it up, it calls for heat, turn it down, it shuts the unit off.
5) Gas controls wired incorrectly. NOT.
6) Unit undersized. /shrugs. I don't really think so. If the system designers at Atlas say I need a 100,000 btu/h unit and I get a 150,000 btu/h unit....Plus like we have been saying, I could run the inside temp up to 90 last year.
So, looks like I am going to have to replace the limit switch and if that fails, find someone with a manometer.
In any event, it is working good enough and with covering the tanks, looks like the corals will be happy(er). Monday, I am going to order the commonly replaced items like gas valve, limit switch, pressure switch, transformer, blower motor, time delay, and thermocouple just to have them on hand.
jnarowe
New member
You are making progress! Before you order any parts, call the furnace company and do a "dumb act": Ask them why the flame was blue last year but not this year. The flame should be blue and if it is yellow that indicates your gas:O2 mix is incorrect. That could be not enough gas possibly from corrosion, blockage, valve etc. or somehow the unit is not getting enough O2 input.
If there is a filter on the input, it may be saturated with moisture or even salt and limiting the air intake. If there is no filter, which is common of course, then you go upstream a bit. There may be salt build up inside the unit affecting air flow. Every time something gets wet with salt water and then dries, it leaves a residue of salt. The more times that happens, the thicker the residue.
Air flow is extremely important in any combustion process so that is the first thing to check. There is some kind of valve outside at the tank, and it may not be functioning properly either. Every time the tank is filled there is an opportunity to bang the valve up so you should inspect that as well.
19F??? Crap that is cold! keeping a GH warm in those temps. has got to be difficult. Maybe moving to a warmer state would help?
If there is a filter on the input, it may be saturated with moisture or even salt and limiting the air intake. If there is no filter, which is common of course, then you go upstream a bit. There may be salt build up inside the unit affecting air flow. Every time something gets wet with salt water and then dries, it leaves a residue of salt. The more times that happens, the thicker the residue.
Air flow is extremely important in any combustion process so that is the first thing to check. There is some kind of valve outside at the tank, and it may not be functioning properly either. Every time the tank is filled there is an opportunity to bang the valve up so you should inspect that as well.
19F??? Crap that is cold! keeping a GH warm in those temps. has got to be difficult. Maybe moving to a warmer state would help?
keto
New member
your system (furnace need converted to lp set at the gas valve not at the regulator at the LP tank and also the orfices need to be changed out you may still have N>G orfices in the furnace also as far as the flames go try pulling the burners and cleane with a wire brush if you want I have a manometer, how far are you from decatur maybe i can come look at this for you, to get you going right.
keto
New member
your system (furnace need converted to lp set at the gas valve not at the regulator at the LP tank and also the orfices need to be changed out you may still have N>G orfices in the furnace also as far as the flames go try pulling the burners and clean with a wire brush if you want I have a manometer, how far are you from decatur maybe i can come look at this for you, to get you going right.
keto
New member
your system (furnace need converted to lp set at the gas valve not at the regulator at the LP tank and also the orfices need to be changed out you may still have N>G orfices in the furnace also as far as the flames go try pulling the burners and clean with a wire brush if you want I have a manometer, how far are you from decatur maybe i can come look at this for you, to get you going right.
keto
New member
your system (furnace needs converted to lp set at the gas valve not at the regulator at the LP tank and also the orfices need to be changed out you may still have N>G orfices in the furnace also as far as the flames go try pulling the burners and clean with a wire brush if you want I have a manometer, how far are you from decatur maybe i can come look at this for you, to get you going right.
keto
New member
your system (furnace needs converted to lp set at the gas valve not at the regulator at the LP tank and also the orfices need to be changed out you may still have N>G orfices in the furnace also as far as the flames go try pulling the burners and clean with a wire brush if you want I have a manometer, how far are you from decatur maybe i can come look at this for you, to get you going right.
