Let's all break the rules!

[Ted_C]

It's obvious that the MODs here on reef central are out to lunch. A Really Really long lunch.

There's no more rule enforcement whatsoever when it comes to people selling an endless stream of corals. Trying to bring this to the attention of Mods doesn't help either.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1746459

Please keep in mind that being seen as commercial does not necessarily require you having a brick and mortar or online store. Selling with the foremost thought of making money, having a large inventory, a constant supply of an item, buying and reselling, growing out coral with the intention of selling and other factors will at a minimum make you appear commercial according to our guidelines

So - since some cant follow the rules and it's unfair to all the others who do - I say [profanity]. Everyone break the rules.

Everyone's that got a lot of frags waiting to be sold - go ahead and start posting them. We'll buy them.

To keep it fair for the actual brick and mortar stores - All the LFS in the area - let's turn this club forum into the P.O.S. it can be and start selling on here till your hearts content.

Edit - removed profanity.,

 

[johnike]

You didn't edit the profanity, you veiled it.
BrianD hates veiled profanity.

 

[Ted_C]

Indeed. It's funny how that works. I receive an infraction for a veiled word in 15 minutes - however - those selling frags posts are still running strong.

 

[BrianD]

Nice rant.

I have looked at your reported posts, and actually had just commented about your latest one in the mod forum prior to seeing this post.

I am not Sherlock Holmes. I do not live in your community. The #1 source of friction between RC staff and members relates to "commercial" posts in local club forums. It rarely fails that when we "shut down" a member for multiple selling posts/threads, we get negative comments from locals. The theme is usually "Why do they call you commercial? You are just a hobbyist like everyone else! I thought we were supposed to support fragging and buying instead of taking from the reefs?"

And so on.

If I have erred on the side of caution, so be it. If you have some concrete proof that a reefer is buying to resell, or maintaining frag tank(s) for the primary purpose of selling, please feel free to forward that information.

The fact that we don't immediately shut down someone based on one person's word is not indicative of being out to lunch. It is called trying to be fair.

 

[BrianD]

Indeed. It's funny how that works. I receive an infraction for a veiled word in 15 minutes - however - those selling frags posts are still running strong.

Every post we see with profanity is treated the same way. As for "selling frag posts", there is no rule against selling frags.

 

[Ted_C]

The theme is usually "Why do they call you commercial? You are just a hobbyist like everyone else! I thought we were supposed to support fragging and buying instead of taking from the reefs?"

I get that. It is a rant yes. My rant continues. It's a rant because others in our community follow the rules strictly while others do not.

When a person has corals for sale week after week for months on end - it's obvious that they are "growing out coral with the intention of selling" and not just a hobbyist selling what's broken from time to time. While I can understand that you might not keep track of this type of activity - I would expect a reporting of multiple posts would lead you down the same path of me: click the person's profile and see their most recent posts to make the judgement call for yourselves.

It's not fair to those who follow the rules and it's certainly not fair to the brick and mortar stores that pay licenses and taxes and operating costs and such.

If you want to change the rules to what I proposed in my original post - so be it. Just make it fair for everyone.

 

[robthorn]

I want to sell frags too. What are you looking for Ted. I have a couple.

 

[BrianD]

When a person has corals for sale week after week for months on end - it's obvious that they are "growing out coral with the intention of selling" and not just a hobbyist selling what's broken from time to time. While I can understand that you might not keep track of this type of activity - I would expect a reporting of multiple posts would lead you down the same path of me: click the person's profile and see their most recent posts to make the judgement call for yourselves.

It's not fair to those who follow the rules and it's certainly not fair to the brick and mortar stores that pay licenses and taxes and operating costs and such.

If you want to change the rules to what I proposed in my original post - so be it. Just make it fair for everyone.

For the past year, I saw that there was a frag thread about every other week. Sometimes they were more frequent, other periods less frequent.

Is that excessive? Perhaps. Do we shut people down who are only using RC to sell? Yes, we have in the past. The situation is being monitored. However, this thread does nothing to help.

 

[Webmanny]

Hmmm... I'm on the fence on this one. I see Ted's point. I really do. However, I also see the reason for people here selling frags out of their home and the value that brings in preserving the natural reefs.

I can tell you from personal experience that some LFS will buy my coral frags at a very cheap price and resell them, which would be the best solution for both the LFS and the people that grow corals in their tanks, but not all stores locally do this. Some won't even give you store credit for some very nice frags that they turn around and sell for $50.00.

I think that if more LFS offered a trade in, sell for store credit or consignment selling solutions, most people would rather do that, than try to sell here on the forum. At least I know I would. I don't like having people go to my house. I'm a bit anti-social.

I don't know if I'm 100% right on this or if this applies to everyone, but that is my personal opinion. I have some local stores that I sell frags to in exchange for other frags or maybe salt, but other stores won't even offer me a cup of salt, in exchange for nice size frags of easy to sell corals.

Food for thought.

 

[TampaSnooker]

I have reported myself in attempt to gain info on if replying to posts about my store was appropriate and did not get a reply in any form. I know another LFS owner has complained vocally about illegal competition and been ignored. I don't know if it's just our local market or a more widespread problem, but brick and mortars are taking a beating and users' failure to adhere to the rules of the forum IS a major issue in our area. I understand that mods are doing their best for an uncompensated job, but we also have stricter laws in Florida that RC is complicit in breaking by ignoring unlicensed sellers who routinely sell or brag up their frag systems which dwarf their displays. I know Ted frequents one of my competitors and I don't think that he has ever set foot in my shop - just pointing out that he is trying to stick up for the people that keep the hobby going for others. Perhaps his method was off, but I agree 100% with his sentiment.

 

[acro-ed]

Ted,
I wanted to chime in just because I have seen how this has played out over the years. The end result is some that people have been banned that didn't deserve it and were doing a lot for the local hobby scene, and others are able to continue when they reasonably should be banned. No system is perfect, and it is what it is.

I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that one can only sell things as a hobbyist if the frags are "broken from time to time." I can vouch for myself and others who may have put hundreds of dollars per month into their system and sell frags here and there to defer that expense. That might be growing with the intention of "selling," but it is not growing with the intention to "profit." (this would be the "foremost thought of making money" as the RC guidelines state)

Years ago I used to sell quite a bit via this forum (I'm in Ocala, but I'm in Tampa pretty regularly), but I was never a commercial operation. I was running 6 MH's at one point and a large chiller, and running 5g buckets of 2 part dry in a couple weeks. Shouldn't I be able to defer some of that if the corals are healthy and need to be pruned?

What about all of the younger reefers and/or people on a limited budget? Should they not be able to buy a piece of something they "can't afford" and then cut half to recoup some of that expense? Or likewise, buying something small and growing it out to frag it (to recoup some of the high purchase price)? These are both technically "against" the rules too, yet it happens constantly.

From what I've seen, it seems that this is really a "threat" based system. If a member is a threat against a brick and mortar store or a threat against a paying advertiser, then they are going to get banned. The rules are otherwise applied in a highly subjective, NOT objective way.

You are right, there are people that come through the different Florida forums constantly who are clearly breaking the rules, but that doesn't mean they are "hurting" the hobby or the board. I look at such people like I did myself several years ago when I was selling "a lot." I was giving the boards on RC the opportunity to buy something (or have me bring it down there or whatever) that I could (and did) make more money by selling elsewhere. If anything, I was giving the "RC" people the perk of buying it cheaper or having first dibs, if you will.

The explanation above goes sideways when the brick and mortar stores are buying from people like that, because their markup may be higher than buying from the hobbyist directly who is supplying the store. This absolutely happens in Tampa (and elsewhere) and is what leads to some of the discontent. Everyone sort of has to play nice and not take things too far or people get uppity.

If anything, RC should look into creating Florida specific rules, since FWC has clearly stated that you need an aquaculture license to sell ANY amount of coral, regardless of profit. It is a huge liability for everyone now, and most people are not properly licensed.

I feel a bit relieved that I gave up on the fragging/selling. I'm too busy to deal with it, so I occasionally give stuff away or trade it, but I've also just thrown a ton of coral in the woods by my house. It's much easier to just kill it now than it is to put up with all of this BS.

This turned into a bit of a rant-reply, but I guess my main point would be "I agree the system isn't applied impartially and objectively."


Thanks,
Ed

 

[BrianD]

I have reported myself in attempt to gain info on if replying to posts about my store was appropriate and did not get a reply in any form.

If there was no reply, there was probably deemed to be no issue.

I know another LFS owner has complained vocally about illegal competition and been ignored.

What is "illegal competition"?

I don't know if it's just our local market or a more widespread problem, but brick and mortars are taking a beating and users' failure to adhere to the rules of the forum IS a major issue in our area.

RC's rules are much more stringent than most forums. You have no idea of the irony of these posts accusing RC of being soft on commercial posts. There are entire forums that have risen up due to our supposed rabid enforcement of these rules.

I understand that mods are doing their best for an uncompensated job, but we also have stricter laws in Florida that RC is complicit in breaking by ignoring unlicensed sellers who routinely sell or brag up their frag systems which dwarf their displays.

We are not attorneys, but if you wish to cite a statute that indicates that RC is "complicit", I will make sure the admins see it.

 

[oldsaint]

How much investigating does it take?
Three clicks and I see a user that has posted 25 threads in the last 20 days, 18 of those threads being corals for sale. With some threads posted over multiple local club forums.

 

[BrianD]

From what I've seen, it seems that this is really a "threat" based system. If a member is a threat against a brick and mortar store or a threat against a paying advertiser, then they are going to get banned.

Sorry, but that is wrong. I have been on this site since the inception, and I don't know of any moderator - ever - who moderated with the goal of protecting sponsors. Most moderators couldn't even tell you who the sponsors are.

We are imperfect people trying to enforce imperfect rules, but we do our best.

 

[BrianD]

How much investigating does it take?
Three clicks and I see a user that has posted 25 threads in the last 20 days, 18 of those threads being corals for sale. With some threads posted over multiple local club forums.

Would you want us to base a decision based on the last 20 days of activity? What if the person has been a member for 5 years and only posts selling threads once a year (but all in one spurt?). What if the person has a massive tank that has routine pruning (a reefer in a community close to me could have a new frag thread about every week and you would barely notice anything was removed from his tank)?

Again, I can't believe the irony of this thread.

 

[acro-ed]

I have reported myself in attempt to gain info on if replying to posts about my store was appropriate and did not get a reply in any form. I know another LFS owner has complained vocally about illegal competition and been ignored. I don't know if it's just our local market or a more widespread problem, but brick and mortars are taking a beating and users' failure to adhere to the rules of the forum IS a major issue in our area. I understand that mods are doing their best for an uncompensated job, but we also have stricter laws in Florida that RC is complicit in breaking by ignoring unlicensed sellers who routinely sell or brag up their frag systems which dwarf their displays. I know Ted frequents one of my competitors and I don't think that he has ever set foot in my shop - just pointing out that he is trying to stick up for the people that keep the hobby going for others. Perhaps his method was off, but I agree 100% with his sentiment.

I appreciate where you're coming from, but the reality is that if you are doing your part as a business owner you are not "actually" threatened by some guy selling frags on RC. The reality is that a LOT of fish stores are laughably bad and are on a slow path to closing their doors anyway, regardless of people peddling their frags on RC.

In my opinion RC "should" protect themselves from being implicated in the regulatory nightmare of unlicensed people selling coral, but it is hardly our concern what the owners choose to do with that. RC is NOT a law enforcement agency and has no obligation to stop any of it.

I'm quite sick of the tattling of everyone on each other. It is totally illogical that the "best" solution is for me to throw live coral in my woods, but that is exactly what I'm going to keep doing so I don't have to deal with this BS.

There are only a handful of stores I ever buy things from, and that has nothing to do with "unlicensed" competition online; it has everything to do with the availability at the stores and the knowledge/passion the owners and employees have for helping further the hobby.

Just a bit of honesty; I've worked in the industry and been in the hobby 20 years now....

-Ed

 

[mlivvy]

 

[BrianD]

No reason for that gif. I think this discussion has been a very mature and productive one.

I might also say that never (ever) have I received direction from ownership/admins to moderate in such a way as to "protect" sponsors. Those who know me on this site know that I wouldn't take such direction very well.

So, if you want to blame us for having poor judgment or poor detective skills, that is fine. However, please know that there aren't any other underlying motives.

Well, maybe one. About every major melt-down war on this forum between the members and the community have centered around enforcement of selling rules in local club forums (including this one). There should be little doubt in your mind why we try to tread lightly. There is only so much drama we want to have on RC.

 

[CuzzA]

I'm banging my head here a little on this one. Everyone appreciates the value of RC allowing us to sell frags on a hobbyist level in local clubs and now we're complaining because some do it more often than others?

Maybe they're really good at growing coral. Maybe they have a mature tank which requires more frequent trimming. Maybe who cares what someone else is doing. This continues to be a huge contention I have with this country. I mind my own business, I wish others would do the same.

So what are the solutions? The easiest one is for RC to ban sales altogether. It would make "volunteer" moderation a hell of a lot easier for the mods. Is that what we want?

Back to my "minding ones own business" comment, the simple solution is if you don't like seeing someone's posts, there's this really simple feature on here where you can ignore a user. Bam, problem solved.

If I could make one suggestion to those who open a lot of frags for sale threads is why not just simply create one thread and continue to post your frags for sale there instead of having multiple threads. Seems like it would be easier for the seller and the buyer. But nevertheless, what do I care, it's really none of my business.

 

[acro-ed]

Sorry, but that is wrong. I have been on this site since the inception, and I don't know of any moderator - ever - who moderated with the goal of protecting sponsors. Most moderators couldn't even tell you who the sponsors are.

We are imperfect people trying to enforce imperfect rules, but we do our best.

I respectfully disagree. I've been here "almost" as long as you.

I want to say that I have a TON of respect for the time and dedication that you and other Mods put in, but the rules are NOT applied objectively and impartially, and that is the basis of this thread.

I feel that if we can "respectfully" discuss this fact then it furthers the board.

You can say that "you" are not moderating with the goal of protecting sponsors, but the "actions" that have been taken over the course of many years suggest that some other Mods have done that. If that was not their "goal" I will accept that, but the "appearances" that have been conveyed with some bans suggest otherwise to people who understand the relationships.

This topic doesn't need to devolve into a "fight," but there are some legitimate issues that need to be worked out policy-wise with how RC conducts itself. These policy deficiencies are in-part why we have lost "good" hobbyists to the "other board."

Thanks,
Ed