Lets talk about carbon dosing, the Redfield Ratio, and bacteria in an SPS system

Serioussnaps

Serioussnaps

New member
I have long been fascinated by the use of carbon dosing in the closed marine system for the purpose of driving bacteria growth. It may serve the purpose of removing N and P while also feeding our precious corals. Also, it is highly related to what I tell new "SPS'ers" is a crucial element in keeping acroporids.....the nutrient balance. I want us all to share our experiences with this long trendy(not in a bad way at all) methodology in aquaria. I would love to kick around carbon dosing and marine bacteria in the SPS forumn. It seems like threads are popping up everywhere in which people who are interested in starting systems like prodibio or those like myself who are just ineterestd C dosing(for the moment) aren't sure why they are doing it or how to go about doing it or if they are doing it for the right reasons. It is MHO that c dosing is more applicable to an SPS system that is geared toward maintaining a stringent nutrient balance. Without understanding the nutrient balance and incorporating it into their husbandry one may struggle greatly with maintaining this sort of system.

First, I want those interested to read this thread. This is likely the most informative thread I have ever read on RC and it deserves a great deal of attention.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1158307&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

and this(there is alot more on this topic coming):

http://www.guilford.edu/geology/redfield.html

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=809340&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

more good reads on the topic by Eric B. and a quote from Randy Holmes Farley(both are quite skeptical of the methods I want to discuss and have their reasons)

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/eb/index.php


http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/eb/feature/index.php

Randy Holmes Farley:>>>"A second means of exporting phosphate is bacterial growth. Such growth can be spurred by adding carbon sources to the water. Some carbon sources include sugar, acetic acid (vinegar) and ethanol (ethyl alcohol; often as vodka). A variety of commercial systems, such as zeovit, also appear to add carbon sources, although they rarely reveal exactly what ingredients they contain. These bacteria feed on the added carbon sources, using them as a source of energy. As they grow and multiply, they necessarily take up nitrogen and phosphorus from the water to form the many biomolecules that they contain, such as DNA, RNA, phospholipids, etc. These bacteria are then usually removed, e.g., by skimming.

One drawback to this process, relative to doing the same thing with macroalgae, is that the bacteria consume oxygen as they metabolize organic compounds. Macroalgae, on the other hand, require large areas exposed to light, using costly energy and what is often most limited: real estate in the vicinity of the aquarium. Another concern is the potential change in the populations of different types of bacteria. That change could potentially have negative consequences, although few reef aquarists have noticed any such issues."

More:


http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/50/m050p147.pdf

another thread on vodka dosing:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714

Let us talk about our experiences with C dosing in tanks geared toward Acroporids and similar corals.

I welcome users or those who are thinking or even thought of using prodibio, zeo, ultralith, or the polyp lab systems as this stuff goes hand in hand and they are much more representative of the hobbyists that have experience with this stuff.

Also, C dosing has been renewed and repopoularized by the italians and their blu coral method and pappone feeding. Sugar is a crucial ingredient in their success IMHO. I tried feeding the pappone without sugar and man that stuff is rich...phosphate bomb. Sugar is definitely needed to mitigate the nutrients associated with all the fresh blended seafoods in that recipe.

My experience with this stuff is extremely minimal and my understanding only goes so far, but with more and more research I see the overall picture and its potentially ground-breaking usefulness for serious hobbyists. The usefulness of these bacs in closed aquaria seem to me revolutionary and cutting edge. I think we have a long way to go but when we get there I see many of our methods becoming old dinosaurs like much long lost lore of the hobby.(there has been plenty in my short 6 year stint....i started my first tank with a damn wet dry trickle joint and experienced nothing but problems for a good 2 or 3 years)

Recently(the past 6 weeks), I have been judiciously dosing sugar(Carbon source) to my small 55g BB/T5 growout/experimental tank. I am beginning to document changes and benefits from doing so. I will say to start I am experiencing less algal growth, clearer water, less film on the glass/really it just takes longer to get it and the ability to feed more. One thing I do notice is my system seems to be craving more and more sugar. Almost like there is a bacterial dependence on carbon, however, Forgive the cliche, but "my tank has never looked better!" LOL

Anyone wanna kick the can?:smokin:
 
can_of_worms.jpg



Great discussion, I hope it stays on track and people can come to the table with an open mind and open to possiblities and concepts.

Look forward to replies.
 
I'm interested. I'm documentedly the world's worst chemist, but one thing I'm very sure of, that we don't exactly duplicate the ocean in our tanks.

My own reasoning says that low-nutrient water can't be the whole story. Granted there's nutrient coming to acros from their microfauna via sunlight, and from the calcium balance of the ocean, still the huge growth of the reefs seems unlikely to be all sunlight and dissolved calcium. If you want something out, seems to me you have to put something in. LPS clearly don't mind slightly dirty water and grow like mad for me; I'm cleaning up, however, slowly herding my system toward sps again, after a re-setup.

So don't expect brilliance out of me on this topic, but I will be reading with interest.
 
Yeah I still want to test the effectiveness of LB (Luria Bertani) broth on a tank and what would result. Since we are trying to stimulate bacterial growth, I can't think of anything better since it has peptides, vitamins, etc. and can be supplemented with sugar or glycerol if growth is too slow. I just haven't had the time to do it.
 
I don't see anything groundbreaking here........it's about striking a balance between export & import with respect to bacteria populations. It's always been that simple, yet everyone tries to complicate things.

You can dose carbon sources, use commercial bacterial driven sytems, or simply have a closer handle on your bioloads,waste & feeding.

Too sterile & the corals starve & bleach..........too many nutrients & we get algae growth & lost color(browning).
The hobby has grown well past reducing N & P using many methods........the trick is creating the right balance for your particular system.

It's always been about the bacteria.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10367644#post10367644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarkXerox
Yeah I still want to test the effectiveness of LB (Luria Bertani) broth on a tank and what would result. Since we are trying to stimulate bacterial growth, I can't think of anything better since it has peptides, vitamins, etc. and can be supplemented with sugar or glycerol if growth is too slow. I just haven't had the time to do it.
Click to expand...

DarkXerox,

Thanks for posting. I would like to know more about that method as well. Is Luria Bertoni basically an Italian that uses a method I have never heard of? Sounds similar to pappone. I am going to google it, but throw a dog a bone.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10366458#post10366458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
I'm interested. I'm documentedly the world's worst chemist, but one thing I'm very sure of, that we don't exactly duplicate the ocean in our tanks.

My own reasoning says that low-nutrient water can't be the whole story. Granted there's nutrient coming to acros from their microfauna via sunlight, and from the calcium balance of the ocean, still the huge growth of the reefs seems unlikely to be all sunlight and dissolved calcium. If you want something out, seems to me you have to put something in. LPS clearly don't mind slightly dirty water and grow like mad for me; I'm cleaning up, however, slowly herding my system toward sps again, after a re-setup.

So don't expect brilliance out of me on this topic, but I will be reading with interest.
Click to expand...

I am the same as you..far from being brilliant on any of this, but I know how to spark a discussion. Hopefully, some of those guys in the chemistry forumn can come in here and help us out. Maybe they can pull their noses out of the books and actually apply it to our tanks!(i mean that with all due admiration for their sharp minds)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10369983#post10369983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
I don't see anything groundbreaking here........it's about striking a balance between export & import with respect to bacteria populations. It's always been that simple, yet everyone tries to complicate things.

You can dose carbon sources, use commercial bacterial driven sytems, or simply have a closer handle on your bioloads,waste & feeding.

Too sterile & the corals starve & bleach..........too many nutrients & we get algae growth & lost color(browning).
The hobby has grown well past reducing N & P using many methods........the trick is creating the right balance for your particular system.

It's always been about the bacteria.
Click to expand...

I couldnt agree more about the last statement, however, we still know very little and what I meant is the more we know the closer we would be to something ground breaking. Certainly the nutrient balance in lieu of bacteria in our systems is quite simple, but we lack a true understanding. I believe we havent even scratched the surface.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10372054#post10372054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
What results?:)
Click to expand...

much slower algae growth, and the water seems clearer. Po4 No4 levels are down but i dont want to get into my husbandry too much as i was doing some stuff the wrong way.
 
Serious, I'm glad you posted this as I've been asking myself much of the same. I do run Zeo on some systems, and have an 'experimental' vodka tank. I followed the dosing schedule that Jorg recommended, but after several months, I didn't see anything. (I'm not going to say my dosing schedule though to avoid finger pointing). I however increased it, too much at first and got that lovely bacteria bloom. However, I didn't lose anything, stopped dosing during that time and in a few days it cleared up. Customers were asking what happened...

So I cut my dosing levels, but was still higher than what Jorg had mentioned. My NO3s disappeared over the next few weeks, my PO4s were always very low due to agressive skimming. Colors lightened, and I've started daily dosing of Aminos.

One thing I've found interesting, was that by properly dosing vodka, my ORP levels increased roughly 30-40mv over long periods (measuring several weeks) that I hadn't dosed any vodka or carbon source. This experimental system runs over 400mv without dosing ozone.

Seems to me that done correctly, it can be successfully employed for the betterment of our corals. 'Betterment' meaning keeping our systems closer to NSW params.... That being said, it's no miracle, and isn't a silver bullet for making all your problems go away. I would not attempt unless the aquarist is quite experienced. This should probably be moved to the Advanced section of RC.

The part I'm not content with is that we do not know what type of bacteria we're culturing. I'm sure there's some nasties as well as the good ones. Also, I'm thinking that a dosing regime hasn't been well established. There's one in RA3, similar to Jorgs (could be the same one), but I thought that a bit conservative. Hopefully, I've added something....
 
LB is the media that we use to raise E. coli and other bacteria in the lab when we are doing transformations, cloning, etc. It is super cheap and is basically digested yeast and tryptone (caesin). I haven't tried it yet but in theory I don't see why it wouldn't be a good substitute for aminos and other dosing (you can always add glycerol too). The only problem is that I am not sure how marine bacteria is cultured in the lab, but this should be a good step to try.
 
I am VERY interested in this subject.

My observations:
I have been sugar dosing for a while and purposly crashed my 24g nano on more than one occasion to see the results and attempt to fix it.

I found a doseage equal to the daily produced nitrates to keep a contant level is best, or "less is more"

I have a barebottom tank and lots of flow, there is nutrient poor to begin with and per another post I was always afraid of nitrates and didn't feed that much. As a result I had poor growth and coloration.

Recently, I began feeding more with a concoction of different foods: 1tsp each Reefnutrition Phytofeast, Rotifers, Tiggerpods, 2tsp of DTs Phyto, a pinch of cyclopeeze, 1 SF Bay Mysid, thumbnail size of P.E. Mysids.

and one cube of sugar to combat this mix of pollution.

I am trying to add a large quantity of food at one time then skim it off quickly, to replicate a bloom of algae or other source of food appearing and disapearing daily.

Recently, I had a HUGE growth surge shortly after starting this and freaked me out, it almost looked like reverse RTN. I surmised this was a large growth spurt that is a result of finally having all the needed ingredients.

About two weeks ago my Sedra SP2 went out on my Euroreef Skimmer, I have been fearing a browning and watching it until I can replace the pump. Since the skimmer has gone out, the colors have gotten more vibrant.

I attribute part of my recent success in growth and coloration due to feeding more and offsetting it with a cube a day.

I wonder about the long term effects and am curious about this bacteria population and what it does if it supresses other strains over the long term.

In the short term, (on and off for 9 months), I find C dosing in moderation useful, but VERY dangerous to the casual user as what can occur if an overdose happens.

As an example the ATL Bonsai I had stalled and did nothing for nearly six month, after changing my thought process, it began to take off.

But of course, the results are the total of the inputs and how much C dosing helps can not be determined at this point, but my gut feeling is that it does in the overall state of things.


September 06, little if any growth for nearly six months
SEP067.jpg


June 07
june07-7.jpg
 
Stony....you have definitely added. All input is appreciated! With that said, I haven't had the stones to dose a C source to the point of causing a bloom(according to many of the "reefer gods" and you know who i speak of it is not a precipitation of any sort but more likely a bacterial bloom as you eluded to) I have only dosed very small amount when i feed and and once everyday as to avoid this very occurrence.

I also concur with the idea that you shouldn't try this as a cure to anything. Taking for granted that an aquarists' husbandry is grade A this is something in the way of tweaking a system and learning more about our small ecosystems.

I find the statements about ORP to be very interesting. I dont monitor ORP( I will in the future funds permitting) and have strongly considered ozone when I make my tank upgrade. I wont comment on this as I can't speak with experience. So you see a rise of 40 in your ORP even after discontinued use of the c source?

Aside from all of this...Does anyone have the capability to measure oxygen levels in the tank when dosing a C source? This would be very intriguing.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10374078#post10374078 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarkXerox
LB is the media that we use to raise E. coli and other bacteria in the lab when we are doing transformations, cloning, etc. It is super cheap and is basically digested yeast and tryptone (caesin). I haven't tried it yet but in theory I don't see why it wouldn't be a good substitute for aminos and other dosing (you can always add glycerol too). The only problem is that I am not sure how marine bacteria is cultured in the lab, but this should be a good step to try.
Click to expand...

Way out of my league unless I research it more.:D Maybe you can give me some reading materials? I am definitely hesitant to add yeast to my system, but at the same time I'll try everything once judiciously.
 
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