Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12366734#post12366734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Some further thoughts.... When NO3 is reduced to N2, N effectively leaves our systems. However, P doesn't have the same gaseous state, when bacteria oxidize PO4 to utilize the O for respiration, are they consuming the P, or is it combining with elements such as Ca and precipitating? What happens to P? If it's becomes, somehow, part of the bacterial biomass (don't care how), which can then be removed from our systems via skimming and water changes, then P limitation is also possible at some point.

When we talk of anaerobic respiration we are talking about NO3 to N2 conversion. But is this what is really occurring in our tanks when we add a carbon source to it? We know that addition of CS to our tanks result in a bloom of bacterial growth that we can observe in the water column. This water column, which is loaded with oxygen, would and should hinder NO3 to N2 conversion right? So should we surmise that anaerobic respiration occurs in the presence of oxygen, which would argue against proven research? Or maybe propose that anaerobic respiration may not be occurring to the degree thought and definitely not the major player in nitrate reduction.

Another good question, how is PO4 reduced when the nitrogen cycle is independent and does not require phosphate? Anaerobic respiration would not result in phosphate removal as phosphate does not become vaporous like N2. How can these two be linked then with CS dosing? I think the real answer may lie with the word energy. Addition of CS is like giving children sugar. They're already energetic enough but add in some extra sugar and they're running ragged for hours. In theory this energy could be used to be productive. In aquariums we are probably seeing this same effect. With addition of CS, it allows natural processes (bacteria/algae?) to actively utilize and remove NO3 and PO4 from the water column because of their growth and productivity needs. You've given energy to the system and the system is responding by trying to expand to fill its new limits. It pulls in nitrates/phosphates and converts them into an organic form that is beneficial to growth, such as amino acids, phospholipids, etc. These converted forms are no longer detected by test kits and are considered removed. They may stay around in the tank for quite a while in organic form until they are later removed by skimming.

Anyways, that's my thought on it and why I've stated in the past the linkage of nitrates and phosphates. Though the cycles are independent of each other, they work together when looking at the entirety of an organism.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12367062#post12367062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Harley-J

You bring up a good question David and now put another into my head..Not a lot of guys run ozone and dose together...So I dont have alot to go from...I run my ozone through my skimmer and since I do that, normal skimmate production is low...I wonder since my skimmer is acting more as a reactor than a skimmer, maybe that's why my No3 decline is slower, do to extraction?..or is the ozone actually killing bacteria, besides Farleys report and creating a full circle of nutrients??

Why do you think your NO3 decline is slower than normal? You may want to explore reduction of ozone input into your skimmer to see if you can increase your skimmer production back to a nominal state. Pushing too much into a small reactor is bad for removal or organics, the reactor itself, and most importantly to you.
 
I totally agree... I thought I read a paper that indicated that anaerobes can definitely be cultured in an aerobic environment? (Too many papers on the hard drive....) I assumed 'something' was happening with P, whether from zeo or vodka dosing, it's the first param I see as being reduced... P is obviously a critical requirement even at the lowest level of cellular activity via ATP and ADP.... The P has to come from somewhere :)

I'd be curious to know if other reefers are experiencing a decrease of NO3 first, PO4 first, or a decrease in both....

I'd be interesting in knowing, are those who run GFO, and dosing carbon, are you finding that your NO3 is reducing (i.e. is vodka dosing working). From Jorg's orginal article, he indicated that if PO4s are low, vodka dosing may not work, why, the Redfield Ratio (RR). You need some PO4, or simply P, or else your system will be P limited (not a good thing)....



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12369580#post12369580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
When we talk of anaerobic respiration we are talking about NO3 to N2 conversion. But is this what is really occurring in our tanks when we add a carbon source to it? We know that addition of CS to our tanks result in a bloom of bacterial growth that we can observe in the water column. This water column, which is loaded with oxygen, would and should hinder NO3 to N2 conversion right? So should we surmise that anaerobic respiration occurs in the presence of oxygen, which would argue against proven research? Or maybe propose that anaerobic respiration may not be occurring to the degree thought and definitely not the major player in nitrate reduction.

Another good question, how is PO4 reduced when the nitrogen cycle is independent and does not require phosphate? Anaerobic respiration would not result in phosphate removal as phosphate does not become vaporous like N2. How can these two be linked then with CS dosing? I think the real answer may lie with the word energy. Addition of CS is like giving children sugar. They're already energetic enough but add in some extra sugar and they're running ragged for hours. In theory this energy could be used to be productive. In aquariums we are probably seeing this same effect. With addition of CS, it allows natural processes (bacteria/algae?) to actively utilize and remove NO3 and PO4 from the water column because of their growth and productivity needs. You've given energy to the system and the system is responding by trying to expand to fill its new limits. It pulls in nitrates/phosphates and converts them into an organic form that is beneficial to growth, such as amino acids, phospholipids, etc. These converted forms are no longer detected by test kits and are considered removed. They may stay around in the tank for quite a while in organic form until they are later removed by skimming.

Anyways, that's my thought on it and why I've stated in the past the linkage of nitrates and phosphates. Though the cycles are independent of each other, they work together when looking at the entirety of an organism.



Why do you think your NO3 decline is slower than normal? You may want to explore reduction of ozone input into your skimmer to see if you can increase your skimmer production back to a nominal state. Pushing too much into a small reactor is bad for removal or organics, the reactor itself, and most importantly to you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12370622#post12370622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
I'd be curious to know if other reefers are experiencing a decrease of NO3 first, PO4 first, or a decrease in both....

When I first started dosing a C source, the NO3 was first to waver. Took a little longer for the PO4 to start in...
 
Before ozone/new skimmer I used to have really high No3 in the 100's. I have been back dosing now, with the new mixture for about 3 weeks and sugar for about 4 days before that. The reason I feel its slow is that, I know the bacs must be doing their job or I wouldn't be at a 25ppm level constantly...right? The bacs seem to be taking me to 25ppm and leaving me there..
Now I am up to 6ml a day...and yet the wall still is there...the funny part is the Po4 is zero..well according to Salifert anyways. :) (AWT=.09)

As for ozone I am running 150mg per hour w/controller but cant get my orp over 340 and when I do, it is only for a brief moment...The dosing seems to knock me back down to about 297.

I wonder if once Po4 depletes does the Bacs become less and less effective? and the reason for my wall is because Po4 depletes out faster than the No3?
 
My ORP dropped to ~280 when I started. It didn't get much above 300 until my nitrates were undetectable. It stayed that way for a few more weeks and now my ORP is back to 330.
 
My ORP dropped to ~280 when I started. It didn't get much above 300 until my nitrates were undetectable. It stayed that way for a few more weeks and now my ORP is back to 330.

So based on your findings, it seems that once I break this 25ppm wall then I should also have the increase in orp I am looking for?? What would you suggest? Higher dosage or just stay were I am at and wait it out?? I really don't want to experience any blooms.
 
last 4 days have increased my dosage to 6ml and decided to check params today...BINGO... down to 10ppm..I know 10ppm is nothing to get excited about but this has been a long hard struggle!! :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12372382#post12372382 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Harley-J
So based on your findings, it seems that once I break this 25ppm wall then I should also have the increase in orp I am looking for?? What would you suggest? Higher dosage or just stay were I am at and wait it out?? I really don't want to experience any blooms.

Based on my observation the ORP should correct itself once your nitrates become more limiting. I would continue where you are. You've dropped from the 100s to 25 in 4 weeks? That's quite a drop in very little time. I would give it 2 weeks and see if its dropped at all. If its dropping I would just continue the current dose. Is there any real hurry to get to zero?
 
You've dropped from the 100s to 25 in 4 weeks?

No.. 4 weeks is when I started dosing again for the second time...The first time I brought it down from the 100's over several months with New skimmer/Ozone/Dosing...I was just dosing sugar, then stopped because I figured Ozone and Skimming would have been enough...but right back up to 25ppm average...but for over 4 weeks could not bring it past 25ppm, till today. According to Saliferts I'm at 10ppm in todays sunlight with reflection rebound from the north star and one cloud shifting to the south!! :D..

Is there any real hurry to get to zero?

No, not really.. just that I noticed with the first drop in No3 that my SPS were starting to color up better, even my yellow Acro seemed to be losing some brown...I just want to keep moving in that direction.
I just really dont know what is a good decline rate? I always end up going, ok lets try a little more sugar or another ML of CS..
 
Genetics & Stony_ Corals.
Thank both of you for your full explaination of what's really taken place here.I'm new to this method so bare with me.So on to my question here.
My system like I mentioned is barebottom SPS full blown.I'm seeing changes to my system and SO is my wife:D
Well guess what:D She wants her tank with a dosage also.So I dosed here system Saturday for the first time.She uses Randy's 2 part make up for supplements.When my system was dosed rock solid as for same PH readings.She tested her tank,because she though it might need some Cal,and Alk added.She was before dosage running around 8.3.Since we dosed it Saturday it went up to around 9.3 not alarming but a concern.I thought maybe being she runs a sand bed, could have have caused this.I just have to give her and answer guys ! Is this a common thing running sand beds?I'm not sure,wanted to ask the pro's here.It was the same batch of Sugar,Vodka,Vinegar.If so should this dosage be cut back some.She did no other changes to her system.
Thanks All:D
 
Has anyone had this happen while dosing?? Man I'm bummin' this is one of my favorite Zoa Colonies..It started yesterday, I thought it was just closed do to starfish/hermits and has gotten worse today...Around the same time I upped the dosage to 6ml..Do you think its due to dosing or just bad timing?? I have not had any blooms and everything else is fine...It kinda looks like its melting.. :confused:
Before
171439mini-P2110117.JPG


Today
171439mini-P4200161.JPG
 
I found another post from an RC guy who posted in the Zoa section of RC, He has been dosing Prodibio for 4 months...he has the same thing going on with his Zoas..but with more than one colony...We looked at each others photos and they are almost Identical...They both look like they are melting... Does anyone know if this is common within CS/Prodibio/Zeo, bacteria dosing programs??
 
My zoos are just fine and growing. You might want to cut back on your dosing since 4mL was dropping your nitrates just fine. Also, when I started I was doing just one CS, vodka. I switched since then but do not use nearly as much as glass-box uses in his mix.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12370789#post12370789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishfanatic06
miwoodar runs po4 remover. I think a lot of people run it with carbon dosing, including myself.

I'm running three tablespoons (a low dose) of GFO per month in a fluidized reactor on my 65. This is a carry over from before I started V/S/V dosing and I didn't to change too many variables when I started the carbon dosing so I left it in place.
 
Dropping in once again to ask a question that has very likely been answered already: Why dose Vodka at all?

I know that seems pretty basic, but I believe I got caught up in the idea of it lowering NO3 and PO4 when in fact that might just be a nifty side-effect. Is it about coral coloration primarily?
 
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