Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12450523#post12450523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral

Boy, we are getting a bit off-topic:artist:
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Just a bit. Has anyone just put zeolith into a gallon of water with a small rio pump and let it run for a wk or two taking potassium measurements? Of course you'll need the control saltwater running next to it but you'll get an answer in no time.

I only ask this b/c 32lb of skimmate removal was needed just to get potassium to NSW in the ion analysis of skimmer output. This mind you was in a total tank volume of 50 gallons. It just doesn't make sense that zeo produce so much bacteria that it becomes limiting.

Zedar what was your media for the denitrifier?
 
I had a Naso tang that loved bananas :p

Somewhat on topic, we cleaned out our sump because we noticed some bacterial growth in a calmer area. Some mulm was pumped into the display.

...surprisingly our Declivis loved them and began eating pieces out of the water column... go figure. He seemed to enjoy them more than any other food we offer.

Potassium salts are common for athletic supplements (to prevent cramps, etc) perhaps they can be incorporated in small amounts to food supplements for fish ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12452696#post12452696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Just a bit. Has anyone just put zeolith into a gallon of water with a small rio pump and let it run for a wk or two taking potassium measurements? Of course you'll need the control saltwater running next to it but you'll get an answer in no time.
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sounds interesting... thing is, no reactor would be running, might that have something to do with it (effectiveness of zeolites / exchange?)? what about dosing...? factors to be considered, but i agree, doesn't seem like zeos would produce so much as to have huge impact...

I've got a couple MJ 404's, a couple buckets, zeolites & a test kit at hand... could give it a whirl. what do you think, 2 gallons SW in each bucket, zeolites (already populated from reactor) in one of them at whatever ratio would be recommended for 2 gallon tank...?
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12452795#post12452795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PSam
sounds interesting... thing is, no reactor would be running, might that have something to do with it (effectiveness of zeolites / exchange?)? what about dosing...?

I've got a couple MJ 404's, a couple buckets, zeolites & a test kit at hand... could give it a whirl. what do you think, 2 gallons SW in each bucket, zeolites (already populated from reactor) in one of them at whatever ratio would be recommended for 2 gallon tank...?
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Well to rule out the zeoliths as a potassium depleting I would take new saltwater (sterile would be best but we can work with what we have) and run with/without zeolith for two weeks. For the zeolith, I would use new unpopulated media. As for amount of zeolith needed?? I would like a dose curve for optimization but just start with a high dose to see if there is even a depletion. I would test daily (if this is not difficult) and keep track of both the levels in just saltwater and the levels in the zeolith saltwater. This test would look for potassium depletion in the presence of zeolith. Things to keep in mind: temperature of the tanks and the amount of flow. Try to keep everything equal. If you have a mj404 in the zeolith bucket then put a mj404 in the untreated saltwater. If you have graphpad or some way of plotting this data it would be most useful in graphical form.

If you're looking at bacterial depletion of potassium this would get a bit more tricky since bacteria are in a constant flux. I would like to rule out zeolith depletion before starting more complex experiments. Mesocosm has posted some interesting material on this subject that I've only briefly read through. I'm not sure how pertinent it is at this moment. First, need to know if zeolith depletes potassium by itself. If it is not then the idea that amino acid (AA) addition along with K+ in the water column results in efficient AA uptake as along with carrier K+ molecule comes to mind....
 
Genetics,

I'm using seachem matrix instead of zeolite.

miwoodar,

Im working on taking pics. Man I suck at cameras. i cant remember how i set the white balance. My pics are coming out way to blue. I try and get some pics up this weekend.
 
Sorry guys I have been following along on this thread. But I know someone put a link to the dosing regiment but I can find it. :( Can someone repost it.
 
Bumping this to see how everyone has been doing. I'm dosing 1.8ml of a vodka/vinegar/sugar mix on 60 gals of water. I have honestly been doing no testing at all. Only watching the tank and skimmer. I made it up to 2ml before the glass was getting a white film on it so i backed the dose down. Corals became very light as well. Skimmer has been working very well. Algae growth has slowed very much. Had a small patch of bryopsis growing and it has not even become noticible in a month wheras before i was pulling it out weekly. Im still dosing AA's in the morning and night. Lets see what else. I think the corals are actually starting to respond after about a month. I bet in anotherr month I'll see better results. Also started feeding very heavily and added a chalk bass.
 
That's good that you are taking it slow.... that is the best way to accomplish this. Instant gratification isn't a good thing to look for with this method.... It's good you bumped up the feeding, don't want to starve those corals....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12517505#post12517505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
That's good that you are taking it slow.... that is the best way to accomplish this. Instant gratification isn't a good thing to look for with this method.... It's good you bumped up the feeding, don't want to starve those corals....
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And honestly, they really were starting to starve.
 
Sorry about that Genetics about the double post and never finished here.
But here where I stand.I pulled out all my live rock to be cooked.The algae on the rock was fueling the whole system.I still having this green haze algae even after pulling the rock out.I cleaned the panes and the bottom being it's BB.I have the corals on racks till the rock is cured.But the problem is cleaning the over all tank in general.For when this rock goes back in,TOo get algae is in checked here.I know we can't have and algae free system.But just keeping it in check.But I'm dosing glass box designs brew here as for .05 per 25 gallons.But the algae seems to come back on the panes very quickly?:mad: I would think being BB and my rock removed I could get a handle on it,but it's still and on going issue here.Any input here,that might come to mind?The tank water did have a slight cloudy look to it.But it surely didn't have any effect as for the front panes,where it still comes back?As for these 3 additives,do either one a direct impact as for green pane algae?I was wonder one of these could be on the low side,to get the die off I'm looking for.
 
One other thing here for you also.I'm doing weekly water changes here also.I'm also wondering if it's a possible a skimmer problem.I do have a Euro reef that's been beef up.But even with that,at what point to you saw it is the skimmer fault?I surely don't want to put out $$$$ for another skimmer,when that's not the problem?But also can't rule it out either?I just wanted to clean the system up.Because if the cooked rock goes in there.I know it would be back on the live rock again.That's why the importance of cleaning the main system out,for when the new cooked live rock is ready.Which is in about 3 more weeks.
 
Wow so you have no live rock no sand and dosing vodka. It seems to me you need to start with the basics.

Here is where i am at. 180g Display and a water volume of 250g BB. I started with about 180lb of live rock with a fully moded G4 skimmer started dosing vodka after my initial algae bloom. First 3 days at .9ml and then increased to 1.8ml for the next 5 days. Now I am at a consistent 2.5ml and the algae is going away dramatically. The skimmer is producing a very thick skimmate and my Nitrates and Phosphates are almost undetectable. You need some type of biological filtration and taking out all of your live rock is defeating the purpose. I feel you are doing to much at the same time and you basically have a qt tank with no standers to work with. You need to start with the basics and go from there. JMHO

Know that my system has stabilized I added my H&S skimmer to the mix and it is performing great. With the vodka dosing you really need great skimming to get the full benfite of the procedure
 
Question for all of you!

My skimmer seems to have slowed production inthe last few days. My initial carbon source was sugar for many months, and the skimmer cup had to be emptied twice a day...10 days agop I started using a v/s/v mixture (375ml vodka, 3tbs sugar, 10ml vinegar). THe water was MUCH clearer by day 3 of v/s/v dosing, but the skimmer output has been steadily decreasing. I've also noticed that my cheato is actually growing again. So have I reached an ULNS? does the ethanol as a carbon source create bacteria that are not as easily removed by skimming as the sugar fed bacteria? any thoughts?????
 
Reeflections,

There may be many issues at play here. First, your rock may be leaching nitrates and phosphates still. When you cooked your rock did you let it sit in the dark with regular water changes? Water changes would remove the phosphates and nitrates released into the water column so the rock doesn't reach an equilibrium and stop.

Second, when was the last time you changed out your membranes/DI cartridge on your RO system? This can always become problematic.


JCTewks,

While on the v/s/v my skimmer output essentially went to zero with only a clear watery substance coming off. And yes the chaeto grew during this time. I've slowly stopped adding sugar and vinegar to go back to a basic vodka dosing. I get an incredibly dark brown sludge that comes out and the chaeto lightened and stopped growing. I don't know if this will continue.

Currently, I'm unsure if I'll go back to the v/s/v dosing as I'm a man of simplicity. The reason I started vodka was to reduce nitrate/phosphates. In turn, I've gotten better coloration from it. As both methods result in reduction of n/p I have decided to go with the minimal requirement. In my case vodka addition is the most simplistic.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12544940#post12544940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
JCTewks,

While on the v/s/v my skimmer output essentially went to zero with only a clear watery substance coming off. And yes the chaeto grew during this time. I've slowly stopped adding sugar and vinegar to go back to a basic vodka dosing. I get an incredibly dark brown sludge that comes out and the chaeto lightened and stopped growing. I don't know if this will continue.

Currently, I'm unsure if I'll go back to the v/s/v dosing as I'm a man of simplicity. The reason I started vodka was to reduce nitrate/phosphates. In turn, I've gotten better coloration from it. As both methods result in reduction of n/p I have decided to go with the minimal requirement. In my case vodka addition is the most simplistic.
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FWIW since going with VSV over just Vodka, we experienced an increase in skimmate production.

I was just reading through a study suggesting that sequential changes in carbon sources didn't have much of an effect on bacterial communities. Would it be possible to have "stubborn bacteria", when switching carbon sources the bac's will not utilize the new source the same or as well as the original?
 
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