Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing
- Thread starter stony_corals
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I'm going to update again here. I stopped dosing at the end of January for two reasons.
1. My shrimps had a hard time molting. I lost a peppermint, a cleaner, and both harlequins. As I mentioned previously, I attribute this to the vodka because the moment I started dosing the first time, the cleaners stopped carrying eggs, which until that time, they had constantly. Not sure if the symtoms are a direct result (ie bacteria growing on the shrimps) or indirect, and someone mentioned earlier (lowering iodine).
2. Basal recession on several acro colonies (the most shaded portions). Unfortunately, I had this before dosing. It continued during dosing, and continued after, so I'm hard pressed to blame the vodka.
Well, my colors went to crap in a handbasket
so I started again about two weeks ago. This time I am keeping much better track of alkalinity (keeping it around 8dKH). I have also standardized my ozone use, meaning I dose constant intervals instead of based on ORP. Since I already knew what amount works for my tank, I'm using a constant 5mL per day vodka. As a semi starting point, after one week my water tested at 0.03 PO4 and 20ppm NO3. Colors are already improving. I'm doing several experiments regarding the basal recession. Starting frags above and below the recession line, so see if either continues when no in a dense and/or shaded colony setting....
1. My shrimps had a hard time molting. I lost a peppermint, a cleaner, and both harlequins. As I mentioned previously, I attribute this to the vodka because the moment I started dosing the first time, the cleaners stopped carrying eggs, which until that time, they had constantly. Not sure if the symtoms are a direct result (ie bacteria growing on the shrimps) or indirect, and someone mentioned earlier (lowering iodine).
2. Basal recession on several acro colonies (the most shaded portions). Unfortunately, I had this before dosing. It continued during dosing, and continued after, so I'm hard pressed to blame the vodka.
Well, my colors went to crap in a handbasket
so I started again about two weeks ago. This time I am keeping much better track of alkalinity (keeping it around 8dKH). I have also standardized my ozone use, meaning I dose constant intervals instead of based on ORP. Since I already knew what amount works for my tank, I'm using a constant 5mL per day vodka. As a semi starting point, after one week my water tested at 0.03 PO4 and 20ppm NO3. Colors are already improving. I'm doing several experiments regarding the basal recession. Starting frags above and below the recession line, so see if either continues when no in a dense and/or shaded colony setting....
Chrisrush
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12196112#post12196112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I'm going to update again here. I stopped dosing at the end of January for two reasons.
1. My shrimps had a hard time molting. I lost a peppermint, a cleaner, and both harlequins. As I mentioned previously, I attribute this to the vodka because the moment I started dosing the first time, the cleaners stopped carrying eggs, which until that time, they had constantly. Not sure if the symtoms are a direct result (ie bacteria growing on the shrimps) or indirect, and someone mentioned earlier (lowering iodine).
2. Basal recession on several acro colonies (the most shaded portions). Unfortunately, I had this before dosing. It continued during dosing, and continued after, so I'm hard pressed to blame the vodka.
Well, my colors went to crap in a handbasket
Interesting observations. What size tank do you currently have?
When one sets up a fish tank the nitrogen cycle needs to become established before introduction of fish or corals. Even after "cycling" the tank addition of the first few fish may result in an additional cyano bloom. Cyano blooms are a result in an increase production of the early stages of the nitrogen cycle (mainly ammonia). They appear during the peaking of ammonia and nitrites. Afterwards, when bacteria that utilize and out-compete for ammonia/nitrites increases you see cyano reduction.
People have reported various results. Cyano blooms have been fixed by adding vodka/sugar/carbon source (CS) to the tank. This idea is based on out-competing for the ammonia and effectively removing the cyano blooms (in turn causing a water column bloom feeding of the CS). This new amount of carbon source (CS) into the system results in an increased pool of bacteria producing and utlizing additional ammonia and nitrites.
Others have reported an increase in cyano from CS addition. This may be explained from starting with too high of a dose and wavering on amounts added. Though I'm tempted to think that cyano blooms may be the result of fluctuation or too high CS dosing, I cannot say. If you see cyano in your tank after addition, I would venture to say you are adding way too much to your tank.
People have reported various results. Cyano blooms have been fixed by adding vodka/sugar/carbon source (CS) to the tank. This idea is based on out-competing for the ammonia and effectively removing the cyano blooms (in turn causing a water column bloom feeding of the CS). This new amount of carbon source (CS) into the system results in an increased pool of bacteria producing and utlizing additional ammonia and nitrites.
Others have reported an increase in cyano from CS addition. This may be explained from starting with too high of a dose and wavering on amounts added. Though I'm tempted to think that cyano blooms may be the result of fluctuation or too high CS dosing, I cannot say. If you see cyano in your tank after addition, I would venture to say you are adding way too much to your tank.
As to how to begin dosing? Yes, you are correct. In the very first post stoney links to it:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...8714&perpage=25&highlight=vodka&pagenumber=21)
Greetings All !
I'm not saying that folks are hallucinating ... just that the correlation is wrong. Anyone who thinks that the cyanobacteria are acting independently of the other participants ... and more to the point, are able to be targeted independently ... in the system's bacteria guild needs to review the literature.
There's a reason that KZ recommends that bacteria be inoculated onto their coral snow product to address cyano outbreaks ... think about it ... :lol:
HTH
:thumbsup:
The reports about carbon dosing causing a rapid increase in cyanobacteria always leave me more than a little amused. An increase in the CS is NOT the direct cause of the increase in visible cyanobacteria biofilms. Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic. They are able to directly utilize inorganic carbon sources. Cyanobacteria are NEVER carbon-limited.
I'm not saying that folks are hallucinating ... just that the correlation is wrong. Anyone who thinks that the cyanobacteria are acting independently of the other participants ... and more to the point, are able to be targeted independently ... in the system's bacteria guild needs to review the literature.
There's a reason that KZ recommends that bacteria be inoculated onto their coral snow product to address cyano outbreaks ... think about it ... :lol:
HTH
:thumbsup:
You know as I wrote that paragraph I was wondering if you were going to chime in on the subject.
As a direct cause you are correct. Would you expect to see a bloom if you were to add too much CS too fast and effectively change the amount of light penetrating the water? Superficially yes but you're right there is probably a lot more going on there than one would expect. Could fluctuations in addition effect cyano outbreaks? I believe there is the potential. If you would like we could switch this over to biological pathways and interplay b/t organisms? Start with a basic flowchart and then see if we could work out a way to test it.
unbreakable
D:
id like to hear more about the cyano. i started dosing vodka in my 28 a week ago and went by the instructions somewhere in here and started dosing about .06 mL in the beginning. im in the second week and im dosing .12+.5 mL. i started getting some dark green cyano on the sand in one spot but it only comes when the main light is on and goes away when actinics or on
Greetings All !
Remembering that I hold more than a few heretical perspectives on this stuff ... when I look at what Rayleigh scattering, Raman scattering, and the Mie Solution to Maxwell's equations (Lorenz-Mie-Debye theory) predict about what will happen to light as it moves through the water column, I have a hard time buying into the notion that the increase in PAR (resulting from a decrease in particulate and/or chemical interference) is really all that significant.
I know, I know ... the 'increased light resulting from our products' explanation is what has been drummed into folks' heads for quite a while now (odd how the manufacturers never offer even the most rudimentary evidence for this, isn't it?).
Be that as it may ... I respectfully dissent. Indeed, when it comes to Acroporid & Acroporid-esque corals, I suspect that what's really going on has a lot more to do with the consequences of lower zooxanthellae density & increased bacterial respiration within the coral's holobiont, than it does with lowered water column turbidity. When I get a quantum meter later this year, I may have something more substantial than my mere opinion to say about all this ...
... or I may be asking which BBQ sauces go best with family Corvidae ... :lol:
JMO ...
Not because the cyanobacteria are significantly utilizing the carbon source, but because the bacterial strains that inhabit the biofilm along with the cyanobacteria are. Ask yourself whether or not the cyanobacteria can make use of the metabolites, and secondary metabolites, produced by the heterotrophic bacteria immediately adjacent to them in the biofilm. Now ask yourself what happens if there are pulses of electron donors, enzyme precursors, vitamins & dissolved free amino acids also present in the water column.
Things can get interesting fast ... and not always in the direction that is intended.
It seems to me that absent clear identification of the strains involved, a meaningful biogeochemical pathway chart is out of the question. This conundrum is only amplified if the set of chemicals (be they carbon sources, or not) is not known. BTW ... you folks don't really believe that the manufacturers are listing every component of their formulae, do you?
Really? ... :lol:
If you've not interested in the proprietary formulae, the literature regarding how marine bacteria utilize various carbon sources is extensive ... some of the best work was done as far back as the 1950's. I posted many of them years ago in what is now ZEOville's 'Advanced Topics Archive', and I'd be stunned if most of them aren't posted here in RC as well. Someone pointed out one of the critical concepts a few pages ago ... until folks start posting the actual concentrations of the CS they're using, whatever anecdotal correlations that result aren't going to be particularly useful.
JMO ...
Even so, I find it quite refreshing to witness the growing awareness in cyber-reefkeeping communities that Nitrobacter & Nitrosomonas aren't the only players that matter, and that carbon-dosing presents marine aquarists with opportunities (... and risks ...) that the classic Berlin-style simply does not provide. To properly reflect on the evolution of the discussion we're having now, check out where it all started on RC ...
dosing vodka to bring down N and P
(RC, frankdreistein, 12.25.2003)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714
Christmas morning in 2003 ... you've gotta love it.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
Hehe ... don't get me started on this ... :eek2:
Remembering that I hold more than a few heretical perspectives on this stuff ... when I look at what Rayleigh scattering, Raman scattering, and the Mie Solution to Maxwell's equations (Lorenz-Mie-Debye theory) predict about what will happen to light as it moves through the water column, I have a hard time buying into the notion that the increase in PAR (resulting from a decrease in particulate and/or chemical interference) is really all that significant.
I know, I know ... the 'increased light resulting from our products' explanation is what has been drummed into folks' heads for quite a while now (odd how the manufacturers never offer even the most rudimentary evidence for this, isn't it?).
Be that as it may ... I respectfully dissent. Indeed, when it comes to Acroporid & Acroporid-esque corals, I suspect that what's really going on has a lot more to do with the consequences of lower zooxanthellae density & increased bacterial respiration within the coral's holobiont, than it does with lowered water column turbidity. When I get a quantum meter later this year, I may have something more substantial than my mere opinion to say about all this ...
... or I may be asking which BBQ sauces go best with family Corvidae ... :lol:
JMO ...
There's no question in my twisted little mind that carbon dosing does indirectly effect cyanobacteria growth patterns (whether we see it, or not).
Not because the cyanobacteria are significantly utilizing the carbon source, but because the bacterial strains that inhabit the biofilm along with the cyanobacteria are. Ask yourself whether or not the cyanobacteria can make use of the metabolites, and secondary metabolites, produced by the heterotrophic bacteria immediately adjacent to them in the biofilm. Now ask yourself what happens if there are pulses of electron donors, enzyme precursors, vitamins & dissolved free amino acids also present in the water column.
Things can get interesting fast ... and not always in the direction that is intended.
Gods of the Reef ... you have no idea how many times I've come right to the edge of posting the flowcharts & tabulations that have emerged after a few years of obsessively watching the observations in ZEOville. One tiny, itsy-bitsy problem though ... what bacterial strains would we be talking about?
It seems to me that absent clear identification of the strains involved, a meaningful biogeochemical pathway chart is out of the question. This conundrum is only amplified if the set of chemicals (be they carbon sources, or not) is not known. BTW ... you folks don't really believe that the manufacturers are listing every component of their formulae, do you?
Really? ... :lol:
If you've not interested in the proprietary formulae, the literature regarding how marine bacteria utilize various carbon sources is extensive ... some of the best work was done as far back as the 1950's. I posted many of them years ago in what is now ZEOville's 'Advanced Topics Archive', and I'd be stunned if most of them aren't posted here in RC as well. Someone pointed out one of the critical concepts a few pages ago ... until folks start posting the actual concentrations of the CS they're using, whatever anecdotal correlations that result aren't going to be particularly useful.
JMO ...
Even so, I find it quite refreshing to witness the growing awareness in cyber-reefkeeping communities that Nitrobacter & Nitrosomonas aren't the only players that matter, and that carbon-dosing presents marine aquarists with opportunities (... and risks ...) that the classic Berlin-style simply does not provide. To properly reflect on the evolution of the discussion we're having now, check out where it all started on RC ...
dosing vodka to bring down N and P
(RC, frankdreistein, 12.25.2003)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714
Christmas morning in 2003 ... you've gotta love it.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
Last edited:
) ?
On the lighting. I would be a skeptic however, times I've changed out my bulbs in previous tanks, while still working through this hobby, I've seen cyano spikes. Since I can only attribute the difference in bulb/light intensity change I will have to reserve judgement on this topic.
CS dosing influencing cyano indirectly is actually a subject that needs to be addressed at some point within this hobby. But first things first; this not being one of those.
Without direct identification of bacteria flow charts are meaningless. I do not believe that identification will enhance the field of research in any quick and meaningful way. Most-likely the bacteria identified will not be of any well characterization and actually ask more questions than answer. If methods are proposed then finding an appropriate test to rule ones out will determine the pathway. Additionally, I believe that there will not be solely one bacterium that results in the CS utilization though a major player or two will eventually be elucidated.
And the best papers I've found on these subjects are from the 1960s. Do you have a specific author from the 50s to focus on? Mostly I have to go to the library to find some of these publications.
Greetings All !
JMO ...
I'd be very interested in seeing how you'd go about "ruling out" certain strains. What I've been pondering is how to move CS dosing regiments beyond the "wait and see what happens, then change dosing dependent upon what the system does" recommendations that we're currently stuck with ... I have some ideas about this, but I'm not ready to post them yet. Even so, knowing the identity of the CS, and its "abstract" concentration in the system after dosing is a fundamental concept.
BTW, what I'm really interested in is the C:N dosing ratio ... not the overall system C:N ratio. This is a conceptual "departure" that folks may wish to consider. This one interests me ...
Utilization of Dissolved Nitrogen by Heterotrophic Bacterioplankton: a Comparison of Three Ecosystems
Niels Kroer, Niels O. G. Jorgensen & Richard B. Coffin
Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Nov. 1994, p. 4116-4123
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=201945&blobtype=pdf
From this article ...
Also ...
Doesn't get discussed much, eh?
Nutrition and Metabolism of Marine Bacteria
I. Survey of Nutritional Requirements
Robert A. MacLeod, Eva Onofrey, and Margaret E. Norris
1954
http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/6/680.pdf
Nutrition and Metabolism of Marine Bacteria
XII. Ion Activation of Adenosine Triphosphatase in Membranes of Marine Bacterial Cells
Gabriel R. Drapeau and Robert A. MacLeod
1963
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=278349
Some data mining expeditions are more successful than others, but every once in a while I get to stumble across one of the "motherlodes". Folks may wish to take a few moments and scroll through this one ...
Google Search Result:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?a...tion=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr
For the "causal" investigator of this realm, perhaps this is light enough not to be too intimidating ...
Trace metals, enzymes, and biogeochemical cycles
Princeton Environmental Institute (PEI)
http://www.princeton.edu/~cebic/enzymecycles.html
For the "generalist" investigator, this one is a gem ...
Isolation, Nutrition, and Cultivation of Microorganisms
http://www.sinauer.com/perry/MicrobialLife05.pdf
Note: If you're into DIY bacterial substrates, or, if you're interested in the potential compositional set of the proprietary formulae, Table 5.3 will be of particular interest.
Also see ...
Microbial Biofilms: from Ecology to Molecular Genetics
Mary Ellen Davey and George A. O'toole
Microbiology and Molecular Biology Reviews, December 2000, p. 847-867, Vol. 64, No. 4
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/ful...rnals.asm.org/cgi/search&journalcode=mmbr#top
For the "serious" investigator ...
Consumption of dissolved organic carbon by marine bacteria and demand for inorganic nutrients
Ulla Li Zweifel, Bo Norrman, Ake Hagstrom
Marine Ecology Progress Series, Vol. 101: 23-32, 1993
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/101/m101p023.pdf
The Bacteria Thread
(Z, mesocosm, 02.10.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5364
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
I would suggest that the normal "degradation" of our light sources has a MUCH more significant effect than does the turbidity decrease associated with CS strategies.
JMO ...
Agreed ... :thumbsup:
I'd be very interested in seeing how you'd go about "ruling out" certain strains. What I've been pondering is how to move CS dosing regiments beyond the "wait and see what happens, then change dosing dependent upon what the system does" recommendations that we're currently stuck with ... I have some ideas about this, but I'm not ready to post them yet. Even so, knowing the identity of the CS, and its "abstract" concentration in the system after dosing is a fundamental concept.
BTW, what I'm really interested in is the C:N dosing ratio ... not the overall system C:N ratio. This is a conceptual "departure" that folks may wish to consider. This one interests me ...
Utilization of Dissolved Nitrogen by Heterotrophic Bacterioplankton: a Comparison of Three Ecosystems
Niels Kroer, Niels O. G. Jorgensen & Richard B. Coffin
Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Nov. 1994, p. 4116-4123
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=201945&blobtype=pdf
From this article ...
Yep ... amino acids as a carbon source. Doesn't get discussed much, eh?
Also ...
Yep ... shift the relative concentrations, and you can shift the pathways of utilization. This is why I'm not a big fan of a single CS (... not that there's anything inherently wrong with it, per se).
Doesn't get discussed much, eh?
"Monoculture" development in marine aquaria is a myth ... :eek1: :lol:
ROTFL ... hehe ... believe it or not, there was actually a reality before the internet. :lol:
Robert A. MacLeod is a name that constantly pops up in my data mining expeditions , and I'd be surprised if you haven't already come across some of his work. For example ...
Nutrition and Metabolism of Marine Bacteria
I. Survey of Nutritional Requirements
Robert A. MacLeod, Eva Onofrey, and Margaret E. Norris
1954
http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/6/680.pdf
Nutrition and Metabolism of Marine Bacteria
XII. Ion Activation of Adenosine Triphosphatase in Membranes of Marine Bacterial Cells
Gabriel R. Drapeau and Robert A. MacLeod
1963
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=278349
Some data mining expeditions are more successful than others, but every once in a while I get to stumble across one of the "motherlodes". Folks may wish to take a few moments and scroll through this one ...
Google Search Result:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?a...tion=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr
For the "causal" investigator of this realm, perhaps this is light enough not to be too intimidating ...
Trace metals, enzymes, and biogeochemical cycles
Princeton Environmental Institute (PEI)
http://www.princeton.edu/~cebic/enzymecycles.html
For the "generalist" investigator, this one is a gem ...
Isolation, Nutrition, and Cultivation of Microorganisms
http://www.sinauer.com/perry/MicrobialLife05.pdf
Note: If you're into DIY bacterial substrates, or, if you're interested in the potential compositional set of the proprietary formulae, Table 5.3 will be of particular interest.
Also see ...
Microbial Biofilms: from Ecology to Molecular Genetics
Mary Ellen Davey and George A. O'toole
Microbiology and Molecular Biology Reviews, December 2000, p. 847-867, Vol. 64, No. 4
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/ful...rnals.asm.org/cgi/search&journalcode=mmbr#top
For the "serious" investigator ...
Consumption of dissolved organic carbon by marine bacteria and demand for inorganic nutrients
Ulla Li Zweifel, Bo Norrman, Ake Hagstrom
Marine Ecology Progress Series, Vol. 101: 23-32, 1993
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/101/m101p023.pdf
The Bacteria Thread
(Z, mesocosm, 02.10.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5364
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
Greetings All !
Apologies for the potential hijack, as this is arguably OT ...
http://www.projectdibs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1367
I'm primarily interested in carbon dosing as a way to maximize nutrient uptake when the gastric cavity has been disrupted (i.e., torn apart by manual propagation), and the processing of ROC (refractory organic compounds) released by the anemones. I've been reluctant to apply a carbon dosing strategy because of potential adverse reactions ... although without more information, it's hard to know if the correlation you describe is valid. There are numerous posts describing constriction in anemones immediately following either sugar or vodka dosing, and a smaller number of posts noting no adverse effect at all. These posts are similar across a wide range of anemone genera including Entacmaea, Heteractis, Condylactis, and Stochiodactyla.
I must confess I'm still a little confused as to what to think about carbon dosing strategies applied to anemone culture.
FWIW, here's a thread about a recent cloning event in my system. The system is dosed with Brightwell vitamin and amino acid products 3X weekly. The constriction and light avoidance that you describe did not occur with these guys ...
Unaided Cloning
(DIBS, GaryWhite, 03.15.2008)
http://www.projectdibs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1815
JMO ... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress
:lol:
Apologies for the potential hijack, as this is arguably OT ...
Thank you for posting this, azgard. Intensive Entacmaea quadricolor cultivation is something I'm very much engaged with at the moment. Long have I been pondering the potential for carbon-dosing strategies within my system ...
http://www.projectdibs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1367
I'm primarily interested in carbon dosing as a way to maximize nutrient uptake when the gastric cavity has been disrupted (i.e., torn apart by manual propagation), and the processing of ROC (refractory organic compounds) released by the anemones. I've been reluctant to apply a carbon dosing strategy because of potential adverse reactions ... although without more information, it's hard to know if the correlation you describe is valid. There are numerous posts describing constriction in anemones immediately following either sugar or vodka dosing, and a smaller number of posts noting no adverse effect at all. These posts are similar across a wide range of anemone genera including Entacmaea, Heteractis, Condylactis, and Stochiodactyla.
I must confess I'm still a little confused as to what to think about carbon dosing strategies applied to anemone culture.
FWIW, here's a thread about a recent cloning event in my system. The system is dosed with Brightwell vitamin and amino acid products 3X weekly. The constriction and light avoidance that you describe did not occur with these guys ...
Unaided Cloning
(DIBS, GaryWhite, 03.15.2008)
http://www.projectdibs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1815
JMO ... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress
:lol:
Thanks mesocosm,
Agreed it may be a abit OT, on the other hand some additional information to help us all understand whats going on.
I'm very interested in this Sugar thing and have read everything possible on multiple forums. I can concur with all statements of clarity, nitrate reduction, and what appears to be general health of the system. That is (-) my observations with the BTA.
All my water factors in a fish reef tank are quite good, with the exception of very high nitrate and is the reason why I am attempting the Sugar. I'm going to lay off for a while and see if it makes changes the reaction. It they return fully, then I will attempt the sugar again and report my findings.
... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
Agreed it may be a abit OT, on the other hand some additional information to help us all understand whats going on.
I'm very interested in this Sugar thing and have read everything possible on multiple forums. I can concur with all statements of clarity, nitrate reduction, and what appears to be general health of the system. That is (-) my observations with the BTA.
All my water factors in a fish reef tank are quite good, with the exception of very high nitrate and is the reason why I am attempting the Sugar. I'm going to lay off for a while and see if it makes changes the reaction. It they return fully, then I will attempt the sugar again and report my findings.
... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
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