Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[Solitaryensis]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to provide some of my own anecdotal evidence. I had nitrates that were off the chart and even after a big water change, my numbers didnt budge. So, i decided last week to begin dosing sugar. Honestly, i didnt really remember to keep it up and dosed 1/3-1/4 tsp twice and i tested today and my nitrates are down to 12ppm. Not where i would like them to be but after doing everythign i could (without setting up a fuge or taking out my sand) im finally making some headway. Dont want to add fuel to any fires but it has seemed to work for ME.

 

[azgard]

Solitaryensis
Please advise your tank capacity and how much sugar over what period of time.

 

[Solitaryensis]

Sorry, forgot about that. My tanks a 40 breeder, SSB, 20 gallon sump, about 30-40 lbs of LR and NO refugium. I am running a older model Euro-Reef that i think is the equivelant of an RS180 (i know, probably "overskimming"). It is mesh modded and i did notice considerably more skimmate after dosing the sugar.

I have dosed a total of 3 times over a week at about 1/3-1/4 tsp. I am very tempted to stop now and see if i notice the nitrates going back up. I wasnt necessarily looking for a "temporary" fix but figured that once i kick-started the anaerobic bacteria, that nature would begin doing its thing again. I run a decent amount of flow in the tank and my THEORY is that because the sand gets aggitated so much (i also have a pair of yellow watchman goby and a leopard wrasse that do also do lot of san stirring) I wasnt giving the sand, and the associated anaerobic areas a chance to do its thing. I would think that i had enough LR to provide a decent amount of anaerobic surface area but that may or may not be the case. Whatever happened, my nitrates are now down to 12ppm from likely 60-70ppm+ over the course of a week. I have done nothing other than raising the level on my skimmer and dosing the sugar.

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12204024#post12204024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !

BTW, what I'm really interested in is the C:N dosing ratio ... not the overall system C:N ratio. This is a conceptual "departure" that folks may wish to consider. This one interests me ...

Thanks Gary? for the references. I haven't made my way through everything yet.

C:N ratio is a great topic to discuss. I know there are products out to add amino acids to the water column but as for an actual ratio I don't know if that's been discussed. Sadly, I add my N by overfeeding corals/fish so I honestly wouldn't have a clue on the amount of N being added. Are you thinking Flintstone vitamins would benefit the water column?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12204024#post12204024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
"Monoculture" development in marine aquaria is a myth ... :eek1: :lol:

[/B]

Agreed. I believe I said the same thing about this a page or so ago. Though in every pathway there is alway one genera/species that stands out do to some competitive advantage. But I'm not arguing that you wouldn't find many organisms that play in concert throughout cycle pathways or compete at the same level. Changing the CS would change the competitiveness leading to other organisms working better.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12210166#post12210166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... Are you thinking Flintstone vitamins would benefit the water column? ...

ROTFL! ... but interesting that you would bring this up ... :eek1:

BTW, which "Flintstones vitamins" are you talking about? The Flintstones "Complete", Flintstones "Plus", "My First Flintstones", or "Flintstone Gummies"? ... :lol:

Let's use Flintstones "Complete" as an example ... :rollface: ...

There are 38 listed ingredients. Six of them are known to be included in at least one of the proprietary systems (mostly vitamin B group vitamins, which have a long history of inclusion in reef supplements), eight of them are derivatives of compounds that might be useful (although there are arguably much better forms to dose), and twenty-four which are either useless ... or outright dangerous in terms of them being dosed into a captive reef ecosystem.

So the answer to your question is 'no' ... :eek2: :lol:


I bring this up because it seems to me that there are a few well-intentioned, but dangerously ignorant reefkeepers out there who might actually consider adding over-the-counter Human-targeted vitamins into their systems. We see these folks in reefkeeping cyber-spaces all the time, yes? The cheapest salt, the cheapest protein skimmer, the cheapest lights, the cheapest tank, the cheapest fish, the cheapest corals ... this is their supreme metric for all things saltwater ... why not the cheapest reef supplements as well?

Listed in categories "Nope" (you'd have to be seriously mis-informed, or seriously stupid to add any of these ... i.e., model railroading is probably a better hobby to consider pursuing), "Perhaps" (there's an argument to be made for its inclusion, but either the chemical form is inferior, or the database is incomplete enough to be concerned) & "Definitely" (there are well-documented reasons to consider dosing), here's the breakdown for Flintstone "Complete" ingredients ...

Sorbitol - Nope. It's just a reduced form of glucose.
Dicalcium Phosphate - Nope, unless you want to add phosphate.
Magnesium Phosphate - Nope, unless you want to add phosphate.
Choline Bitartrate - Nope, unless you're into adding a mild muscle toxin & laxative.
Sodium Ascorbate - Nope, unless you're into adding a mineral salt of vitamin C.
Ferrous Fumarate - Nope, unless your bacteria like sour tastes.
Gelatin - Nope, unless you like adding connective tissue to your system.
Natural & Artificial Flavors (including fruit acids) - Nope.
Pregelatinized Starch - Nope, unless you like feeding your system pasta.
Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil - Nope.
Magnesium Stearate - Nope. BTW, this is a common filing agent in pills and capsules.
Zinc Oxide - Nope.
D-Calcium Pantothenate - Nope. There are better ways to deliver vitamin B5.
FD&C Red #40 Aluminum Lake - Nope.
FD&C Yellow #6 Aluminum Lake - Nope.
Xylitol - Nope, unless your bacteria have a taste for sugar substitutes.
Aspartame - - Nope, unless your bacteria have a taste for sugar substitutes.
FD&C Blue #2 Lake - Nope.
Cupric Oxide - Nope, unless you like adding ceramic pigments to your system.
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride - Nope. There are better ways to deliver vitamin B6.
Monoammonium Glycyrrhizinate - Nope. There are much better hydrocarbons to consider.
Soybean Oil - Nope.
Butylated Hydroxytoluene - Nope. It's used as an antioxidant food additive.
Magnesium Oxide - Nope.

Carrageenan - Perhaps, as this is a sulphated polysaccharide extracted from red seaweeds.
Stearic Acid - Perhaps, as this is a saturated fatty acid, but difficult to deliver.
Sucrose - Perhaps. It's definitely a CS candidate.
Thiamine Mononitrate - Perhaps. This is a combination of vitamin B1 and nitrate.
Vitamin A Acetate - Perhaps, as this is an ester form of acetic acid and vitamin A.
Vitamin E Acetate - Perhaps, as this is an ester form of acetic acid and vitamin E.

Vitamin D - Definitely.
Riboflavin (vitamin B2) - Definitely.
Niacinamide (vitamin B3) - Definitely.
Vitamin B7 (biotin) - Definitely.
Folic Acid (vitamin B9) - Definitely.
Vitamin B12 - Definitely.
Beta-Carotene - Definitely.
Potassium Iodide - Definitely.


Sometimes I worry that I think about this stuff way too much ... :bounce1:



JMO ... Too much time on my hands.
:thumbsup:

 

[Dawn II]

Why are my nitrates going back up? Up to 5 ml vodka; nitrates had gone down to less than 10, now up to almost 20??

 

[Genetics]

:lol: I'm still laughing at this and its been a good ten minutes. Actually, thanks for looking into this. I was joking earlier but you know how you sit and think why wouldn't it work? Actually, I was going to look up the ingredients tonight to see why I couldn't use human consumable vitamins. I would've given up at artificial coloring.

And why not add phosphate to your system? I could see a potential bottleneck in nitrate reduction if you ran out of phosphate.

Now getting back to amino acids. What is your take on the ability of Scleractinia to synthesize essential amino acids? Wouldn't the addition of sugar result in better synthesis of AA than by direct delivery through the water column? There is some evidence that some soft-corals uptake a healthy amount of amino acids ~10%.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12213120#post12213120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... Actually, thanks for looking into this. I was joking earlier but you know how you sit and think why wouldn't it work? Actually, I was going to look up the ingredients tonight to see why I couldn't use human consumable vitamins. I would've given up at artificial coloring. ...

Hehe ... the notion of breaking down a Flintstone vitamin's ingredients in RC's SPS Keepers forum had a twisted fascination that I couldn't resist ... on a lot of levels. There may be something very, very wrong with me. Besides, much of the info was already in my files. Even so, I'm glad that at least one person found it useful.

:thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12213120#post12213120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... And why not add phosphate to your system? ...

As you know, we can only test for a narrow spectrum of the P-compounds present in our systems. Given that, and the clear correlation between "high" levels of phosphates and disruption of healthy skeletogenesis, I have a hard time rationalizing the premeditated dosing of phosphate-bearing compounds ... other than by "feeding".

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12213120#post12213120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... I could see a potential bottleneck in nitrate reduction if you ran out of phosphate. ...

Interesting ... my take is that phosphate limitation is much more of a bacterial biomass & growth rate thing, as opposed to a direct denitrification pathway thing (another one of those indirect linkages). I suspect that the recent assertions about ~ 0.00 mg/L ortho-phosphate readings on a Hanna toy being the cause of increased NO3 levels is ... hmmm ... premature.

JMO ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12213120#post12213120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Now getting back to amino acids. What is your take on the ability of Scleractinia to synthesize essential amino acids? ...

I'm a major Dr. Szmant fan. I find her and Fitzgerald's work to be excellent ...

Biosynthesis of 'essential' amino acids by scleractinian corals
Fitzgerald & Szmant
Biochem. J. (1997) 322, 213-221
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/322/0213/3220213.pdf

I think a much more interesting set of questions branches out from: (A) whether or not dosing amino acids into the water column feeds cellular amino acid pools in any beneficial way; and (B) whether or not amino acids dosed into the water column directly serve as either building blocks or precursors in cellular processes.

I want to say 'yes' to both A and B ... but I'm more than a little hard-pressed to provide any documentation that either is going on. I try to avoid "faith-based" reefkeeping whenever possible, regardless of how the intuition "feels". I started to jibber a little too over-enthusiastically about these things in a discussion with Chris Jury in the chemistry forum a few months ago. He quite incisively pointed out that the hard evidence for either simply isn't there. Reasonable inference? ... perhaps, but not with a confidence interval that I'd be comfortable defending. Indeed, he suggested that what we are seeing may be nothing more than a happy consequence of something far simpler, and very well-documented in the literature ... amino acids impacting nitrogen limitation in zooxanthellae. He makes a point that cannot be discarded lightly.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12213120#post12213120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... Wouldn't the addition of sugar result in better synthesis of AA than by direct delivery through the water column? ...

I'm not sure what you mean by "better" AA synthesis ... an increased reaction rate with less "down time" (due to depleted cellular AA pools)? Hmmm ... I don't know. I'm not at all convinced that a sugar (in and of itself) is going to have a significant impact on protein biosynthesis efficiencies.



JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[panic]

Maybe glutamine for a building block or L-carnitine for speedy metabolism?

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12214554#post12214554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !

As you know, we can only test for a narrow spectrum of the P-compounds present in our systems. Given that, and the clear correlation between "high" levels of phosphates and disruption of healthy skeletogenesis, I have a hard time rationalizing the premeditated dosing of phosphate-bearing compounds ... other than by "feeding".

Interesting ... my take is that phosphate limitation is much more of a bacterial biomass & growth rate thing, as opposed to a direct denitrification pathway thing (another one of those indirect linkages). I suspect that the recent assertions about ~ 0.00 mg/L ortho-phosphate readings on a Hanna toy being the cause of increased NO3 levels is ... hmmm ... premature.

True. I was thinking something along the same lines for nitrates. Nitrogen is found in a large range of organic compounds that are broken down into nitrates. I thought the same about phosphates and how they appeared limiting in the recent Hanna tests and how it may affect nitrogen. However, you are right to point out that this is again anecdotal and even with phosphates reading zero does not mean there isn't enough around as other substances are constantly breaking down. Again though, if phosphates are dropping then there is a use for them that may need supplementation.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12214554#post12214554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm

I'm a major Dr. Szmant fan. I find her and Fitzgerald's work to be excellent ...

Biosynthesis of 'essential' amino acids by scleractinian corals
Fitzgerald & Szmant
Biochem. J. (1997) 322, 213-221
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/322/0213/3220213.pdf

I think a much more interesting set of questions branches out from: (A) whether or not dosing amino acids into the water column feeds cellular amino acid pools in any beneficial way; and (B) whether or not amino acids dosed into the water column directly serve as either building blocks or precursors in cellular processes.

I want to say 'yes' to both A and B ... but I'm more than a little hard-pressed to provide any documentation that either is going on. I try to avoid "faith-based" reefkeeping whenever possible, regardless of how the intuition "feels". I started to jibber a little too over-enthusiastically about these things in a discussion with Chris Jury in the chemistry forum a few months ago. He quite incisively pointed out that the hard evidence for either simply isn't there. Reasonable inference? ... perhaps, but not with a confidence interval that I'd be comfortable defending. Indeed, he suggested that what we are seeing may be nothing more than a happy consequence of something far simpler, and very well-documented in the literature ... amino acids impacting nitrogen limitation in zooxanthellae. He makes a point that cannot be discarded lightly.

I'm not convinced this is what the paper was elluding to. Actually, in this paper what it found was Scleractinia could produce amino acids that are considered essential to the rest of the animal kingdom. This raises an interesting possibility that corals have evolved the means necessary to produce amino acids that we need to supplement. The other aspect that the authors elluded to was amino acid synthesis of these essential amino acids were far exceeding basic amino acids. This synthesis may be a result of these basic amino acids being provided by either surrounding bacteria or zooxanthellae. With this in mind it may be more beneficial to feed the surrounding bacteria/zooxanthellae than to dose amino acids directly. Hence, the sugar comment I had made. If the latter is true simple/complex sugars may aid in the synthesis of amino acids by indirectly stimulating their production.

 

[stony_corals]

Just took my betty vitamin.... feel more colorful already.

C:N dosing ratio.... hmmm, how much do my fish poop? That'd be tough no, otherwise I suppose you could measure the amount of food fed, and assume some percentage of nitrogen content and voila, C:N dosing ratio figured out.... Oh wait, then I need to figure out how much nitrogen is in those 5 drops of aminos... pretty complex stuff?!? My guess is that many of the individuals that are getting significant results from Zeo, FM, etc figure that out through observation and changes in dosing. May be obsessive observation might be a better term?!?

Wouldn't you think that by phosphates being a limited factor, this will impact denitrification from bacteria population growth being muted?!? Again we're most often talk PO4, not necessarily organic forms of P that biologically may become PO4. I think in the original vodka thread, Jorg or Jens pointed out that organic carbon dosing won't result in denitrification should a system be phosphate limited? I vaguely recall this.... Want lower nitrates? Feed more!

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12217866#post12217866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Just took my betty vitamin.... feel more colorful already.

:lol:

Feeding more could still not fix a rift in the balance between phosphates and nitrates. I was just thinking of something to supplement the tank with that would give a mild increase in phosphate levels. I guess once both your nitrates and phosphate and low, it really wouldn't matter. Throwing in food would be better off than anything that could be achieved otherwise by inorganic supplementation. But really could help if you still have high nitrates but no phophates.

Here's another question I'm throwing around today. Can you tell I'm procrastinating from work?

In low nutrient systems it has been reported that potassium is lower than in NSW. Anyone have any experience/problems with this from dosing CS?

 

[Canarygirl]

I've only heard of low K+ being a problem in Zeo systems, not in "regular" low nutrient systems.

Anybody else?

 

[azgard]

Report for mesocosm, I stoped for two days on sugar and RBTA began to fully extend. Too day I added 1/4 tsp to a 150gal tank and the anemone showed immediate shrinkage with in 1hr.

I am now going to lay off for 5 days and see if it returns to full extension and try and see if it responds to sugar again. I have also noticed greenstar polyps not opening but I'm not sure if this is related. Will post my findings in about 7days.

 

[azgard]

Report for mesocosm,

I stoped for two days on sugar and RBTA began to fully extend. Too day I added 1/4 tsp to a 150gal tank and the anemone showed immediate shrinkage with in 1hr.

I am now going to lay off for 5 days and see if it returns to full extension and try and see if it responds to sugar again. I have also noticed greenstar polyps not opening but I'm not sure if this is related. Will post my findings in about 7days.

 

[sh0tyme83]

Ok since azgard noticed something with his RTBA, I'm just curios if vodka dosing would affect soft corals at all... I'm debating on whether or not I want to start this. I have nitrates that I can not get down. I run a DSB and I can go for days without feeding and my nitrates are always over 50 PPM. I do have some SPS and they are very colorful already, but I have noticed almost no growth, and before you question, my Mg is at 1400, CA is at 430, and Alk is at 10 dkh. Has vodka dosing increased the coral growth for anyone, or is it purely for color?

 

[Kreeger1]

I stopped dosing vodka due to red slime break out...I stopped and 2 days later it was gone, started back up and it reappeared
So I'm done with it for now

 

[Dawn II]

Where did the slime appear? I had something on my pipe organ, and put it in QT- thought it was jelly infection. It is still there, no slime elsewhere.

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12221708#post12221708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by azgard
Report for mesocosm,

I stoped for two days on sugar and RBTA began to fully extend. Too day I added 1/4 tsp to a 150gal tank and the anemone showed immediate shrinkage with in 1hr.

I am now going to lay off for 5 days and see if it returns to full extension and try and see if it responds to sugar again. I have also noticed greenstar polyps not opening but I'm not sure if this is related. Will post my findings in about 7days.

What is the current state of your Nitrates/Phosphates within the tank?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12221708#post12221708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> bysh0tyme83

Ok since azgard noticed something with his RTBA, I'm just curios if vodka dosing would affect soft corals at all... I'm debating on whether or not I want to start this. I have nitrates that I can not get down. I run a DSB and I can go for days without feeding and my nitrates are always over 50 PPM. I do have some SPS and they are very colorful already, but I have noticed almost no growth, and before you question, my Mg is at 1400, CA is at 430, and Alk is at 10 dkh. Has vodka dosing increased the coral growth for anyone, or is it purely for color?

I have yet to notice any side effects from carbon dosing. Softies in the tank include: zoos, acans, frogspawn, duncan, xenia, candy canes, sinularia, a toad stool and a carpet anemone.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12221708#post12221708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a>Kreeger1 /i]
I stopped dosing vodka due to red slime break out...I stopped and 2 days later it was gone, started back up and it reappeared
So I'm done with it for now

What are your current tank parameters and what temp are you running your tank?

 

[Kreeger1]

I run my tank at 76 degrees, my nitrates are under 10 and my phosphates are almost undetectable.

Im doing a different typ of tank them most, 400 gals of non photo fun