Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

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unless your food is contaminated it wont introduce new strains.

monocultures are a problem....the detriments are cloudy not clear water, bacteria spnge like growth on equipment and LR, and poor coloration of acro's. i am finding this again as I am just begining to get the weird bacteria growth...time for a dose of prodibio and it should go away.

eric
 
That's not a problem with one strain of bacteria, that's a problem with too much bacteria, whether it is one strain or not.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10982430#post10982430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
unless your food is contaminated it wont introduce new strains.

monocultures are a problem....the detriments are cloudy not clear water, bacteria sponge like growth on equipment and LR, and poor coloration of acro's. i am finding this again as I am just beginning to get the weird bacteria growth...time for a dose of prodibio and it should go away.

eric
Click to expand...
 
considering the little amount i have dosed and the massively oversized skimmer i have for my tank..i highly doubt that's the case. no bloom occurred or came close to occuring.
 
Peter, Again this is anecdotal so take it for what it's worth (hopefully something). When I dosed vodka without additional bacteria sources, I got the same stringy snot bacteria all over the tank, equipment, liverock.... when I've used a bacteria source, I have not grown this "snot". I've done this on a couple of systems. Now whether this "snot" is a monoculture, I'm not certain. I'm not that smart to know.... wheres meso and chris jury when you need them.....

If we can assume that different bacteria cultures have different growth rates, it seems logical that there could be a monoculture.... thinking out loud. What I find interesting is that this argument is pretty consistent in the lore that is carbon dosing. However, it wasn't until recently that it was discovered that Nitrobacter aren't the bacteria that convert NO2 -> NO3 which was common thought for the past 30 years. See RA3...

boxfishpooalot, thanks for that conversion. Is that by weight/mass? How did you calculate this?
 
It was almost ten years ago that it was discovered that it isn't Nitrobacter http://web.archive.org/web/20040105...k.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/aug/science/default.asp

Is there any documentation about what species of bacteria tend to become monocultures and what species of bacteria are in these mysterious additives? Without even that, why should I assume that these additives are anything other than snake oil designed to separate fools from their money? Theres a lot of that in this hobby.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10982661#post10982661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Peter, Again this is anecdotal so take it for what it's worth (hopefully something). When I dosed vodka without additional bacteria sources, I got the same stringy snot bacteria all over the tank, equipment, liverock.... when I've used a bacteria source, I have not grown this "snot". I've done this on a couple of systems. Now whether this "snot" is a monoculture, I'm not certain. I'm not that smart to know.... wheres meso and chris jury when you need them.....

If we can assume that different bacteria cultures have different growth rates, it seems logical that there could be a monoculture.... thinking out loud. What I find interesting is that this argument is pretty consistent in the lore that is carbon dosing. However, it wasn't until recently that it was discovered that Nitrobacter aren't the bacteria that convert NO2 -> NO3 which was common thought for the past 30 years. See RA3...

boxfishpooalot, thanks for that conversion. Is that by weight/mass? How did you calculate this?
Click to expand...

I'm not following here. In absolute terms, if you have a certain amount of bacteria, regardless of how many different strains it is made of, you are going to have a certain amount of "white stuff" be it in the form of mats, stringy stuff, or cloudy water.

So you are saying that the introduction of some additive is providing a large number of different bacteria. And that this diversity of bacteria, when grown to the same numbers/density/mass as a "monoculture", is invisible (ie no visible cloudiness, mats, etc). I have doubt, but I'm not a microbiologist either.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10982925#post10982925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric

-they clearly work
-there is evidence baking it up
Click to expand...
What evidence? Controlled studies, peer reviewed papers, or just a bunch of aquarists saying "post hoc, ergo propter hoc?"

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10982925#post10982925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric

-ultra which was developed by the ex-business partner of Pohl shows what ingredients are in them and the strains used.
-test have been done confirming that bacteria is actually in those little bottles.
Click to expand...

Well, what are the ingredients?
 
for someone asking such questions, i'll allow you to do your own footwork ;) it's out there and for the most part easily obtainable.

i probably should have just ignored the question....lets try and keep this thread on track.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10982934#post10982934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I'm not following here. In absolute terms, if you have a certain amount of bacteria, regardless of how many different strains it is made of, you are going to have a certain amount of "white stuff" be it in the form of mats, stringy stuff, or cloudy water.

So you are saying that the introduction of some additive is providing a large number of different bacteria. And that this diversity of bacteria, when grown to the same numbers/density/mass as a "monoculture", is invisible (ie no visible cloudiness, mats, etc). I have doubt, but I'm not a microbiologist either.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Again, in taking what the 'common' sentiment (right or wrong) in that using vodka can cause the development of monocultures. It could be that given the right amount of carbon, this strain outcompetes others. By periodically adding additional strains, we're maintaining 'some' diversity. I shouldn't assume that the snotty strands are a monoculture, touche! But that WAS implicit in my post....

Actually, I don't have any mats, stringy stuff, or cloudy water...(more anecdotal info) when using vodka AND dosing a source of bacteria.....

I'm no microbiologist either :)
 
Thanks for helping me find the ingredients for the bacterial additive. It contains two species of bacteria that are not normally found in our tanks: Nitrosomonas europea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi. They aren't missing because because you dosed your tank with ethanol and created a monoculture, they aren't in anyones tanks. You don't need them, as if adding them to your tank weekly would have any effect. Read this article (by the same author as the link I posted above.) I'd love to see strong evidence to the contrary, but it seems this bacterial additive is snake oil.

http://www.reef-fanatics.com/forums...l-nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria-aquaria-270.html
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10983403#post10983403 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Thanks. Again, in taking what the 'common' sentiment (right or wrong) in that using vodka can cause the development of monocultures. It could be that given the right amount of carbon, this strain outcompetes others. By periodically adding additional strains, we're maintaining 'some' diversity. I shouldn't assume that the snotty strands are a monoculture, touche! But that WAS implicit in my post....

Actually, I don't have any mats, stringy stuff, or cloudy water...(more anecdotal info) when using vodka AND dosing a source of bacteria.....

I'm no microbiologist either :)
Click to expand...

Here's the way I'm theorizing it in my head. The mats and stringy stuff are bacteria. Simlpy a bacterial bloom. Since bacteria grow exponentially, once bacteria with favorable conditions begin to take off, they can quickly overtake everything. Not necessarily a mono species culture, but possible (probable?) My concern with this would be, besides the obvious aesthetics, and the lack of oxygen in the tank, is the possibility that this bacteria could use up certain essential element(s) in the water, resulting in a deficiency which may or may not affect tank inhabitants.

Now, I am not sure how the addition of more strains of bacteria would change this, except to compete for nutrients, and not allow any one strain to flourish. However, I think this also means that you have less overall bacterial growth in the tank ie. no one strain is at the point of taking over, otherwise you'd still see visible signs. Does this mean you have the overall same "amount" of bacteria, without the physical signs of mats and such? I'm not sure. It seems unlikely. If you did, you'd still have visible signs, just variations, shapes, colors of mats, strings, cloudiness, etc.
 
marineland may have a part in the labeling of bacteria used by FM and the lack of info given by KZ...just a wild thought.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10983411#post10983411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burris
Thanks for helping me find the ingredients for the bacterial additive. It contains two species of bacteria that are not normally found in our tanks: Nitrosomonas europea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi. They aren't missing because because you dosed your tank with ethanol and created a monoculture, they aren't in anyones tanks. You don't need them, as if adding them to your tank weekly would have any effect. Read this article (by the same author as the link I posted above.) I'd love to see strong evidence to the contrary, but it seems this bacterial additive is snake oil.

http://www.reef-fanatics.com/forums...l-nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria-aquaria-270.html
Click to expand...

Which product are you referring to? that link isn't working for me

edit - ok, it just doesn't work in firefox.
 
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OK, back to anectodal evidence :D

I just started dosing a few days ago. I'm at 1mL per day in my 115g tank. Some things I am noticing. Corals are starting to get better color (they were quite brown). Most noticably....many acros polyps are starting to turn green. Even some colonies that have never had green polyps before (brown or blue, even pink mille) are getting green. Is this normal?

Also, I've noticed some "burnt tips". I keep my levels pretty high (ie alk at 9.6dKH). I know zeo users have to keep it lower, like 8. Does the same hold true when using vodka?

Thanks for sharing any info you've observed :)
 
Dawn, essentially, they lack tissue.

I'm trying to keep my vodka tank inline with the Blu Coral method, as I intend on making the pappone and feeding that. So as off a couple days ago, 1600ppm Mg, 500ppm Ca, alk 9.9 dkh. I've had one, a A. desalwii that had one burnt tip, but that's it for some time now....

Your dosage is a good starting point. Again I'm dosing ~8-9ml in just a little bigger water volume. Going slow though is the way to go.

I have other systems that run Zeo. Yes, you get burnt tips if your alk goes above 8 dkh, like clockwork. I've not run into that using vodka, and my nutrient params are pretty similar....
 
Does anyone think Amino Acids help make bacteria more nutritious?

Do Amino Acids help fuel the bacteria?

I'm inclined to think so...but would like some evidence.
 
Dawn, I'll snap a couple pics tonight of the burnt tips. It's a tricolor acro. It's almost as if the tips had a sudden growth spurt (white, suddenly larger bulbous tips). Then the tissue disappeared from the tips....

Here's a shot I happen to take the day before the tissue loss...
You can see the white tips on a few branches...
Fragcitytricolor.jpg
 
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