CenterConsole
New member
Who has a harem or multiple harems of fish in their tank? What have you tried that worked or didn't work? Thinking of trying a harem? Post up all info, details, pics/vids about harems!
Lets talk harems!
- Thread starter CenterConsole
- Start date
small alien
The fungus is among us.
I've tried but my wife won't go for it.
I have two harems atm in one tank. Lyretails and bartletts.
I've had x3 different attempts with each set of harems. After much speculation and observation I feel the 3rd set for each appears to be much more successful then the first two attempts by running a different method of harem formation based off observations in the first two attempts.
In the first attempt I tried with 3 or more females, all of the same size, all at once for both harems. Most of the times when I tried purchasing females only, they all came around the same size so I didn't have much selection there.
Observations in first trial:
-If the dominance issue is a draw between two females both become males and that results in one taking out another unless the tank is large enough for both to have harems which I have read and seen.
-If the dominance issue is not resolved between the females (More then 2), many of them will become males and take out each other. I have read countless posts of people having all their females turn male.
-If you have a female turn male but is too passive, another male will arise from a female who does not feel the dominant pressure applied by the current male, obviously, resulting in a second male.
In the second attempt for a solid harem formation, I tried starting out with a large male with 2 females all at once.
Observations in 2nd trial:
-The male appears not to be established and shows no intentions on keeping a harem. Most of the times, hes more interested in keeping himself alive. I would hypothesize that a male who is aggressive and is eager to claim territory may not run into these problems, however in this case, this male appears not to claim territory or interested in forming a harem.
-He may appear to harass the females but does not show any attempt to keep a harem. He chases them around but not to make a harem, he actually does it to keep them away. If you watch them enough, you will know what kind of chase means, join me or get bullied or the chase that means get out of here! Alot of times, flaring is a good indicator of expression of dominance plus body tapping. Random chasing, without flaring and body tapping, around the tank appears not to be an indicator of trying to express dominance.
-These actions result in the remaining females to fight over each other who will be the leader of the two and henceforth the arising of a second male.
It generally takes about a month for the female to turn male from my experience. In my first two harems, most of them if not all have turned male within 2 months. I ended up selling and trading these out to others who were interested in them. Luckily there was a demand for males.
This third attempt is done with a female. I would hypothesize that starting with a larger male that is aggressive may result in similar outcomes but I would have to test this, however atm, I'm alittle tight on the budget from experimenting lol.
Third attempt trial and observations: Currently been running 6 months with this harem and they appear to have a strong harem formation.
1st: Start off with just one. A fairly large size specimen and female in this case. If you have the chance to, buy one that appears to be much more aggressive then the other females. Not to the point that she'd kill them but she means business and expresses dominance thru bodily displays.
2nd: Let the female adjust to the environment and become established with the territory first, 3 weeks. The second fish will clearly be unfamiliar with the territory.
3rd: After 3 weeks of being well conditioned and adjusted to the aquarium, I introduce the 2nd female, small and if possible, buy passive looking females, ones that prefer not to fight. Also since my female is in much better condition, I would hypothesize that she definitely has much more stamina to constantly fight for her position as the top dawg.
3rd: After another three weeks you will know who is top dawg when the female completely turns male and the female yields to him at all times.
4th: A third, once again a small female, is finally added at this point. It appears that with both a solid male figure and solid female figure, the third female yields quickly. Not only does the male show dominance, so does the 2nd female. However, if the second female goes too far, I have noticed the male comes quickly in to remind the 2nd female where she stands, 2nd and ONLY 2nd. This is what I would say forms the strong harem formations. There becomes a chain of dominance but the top dawg reminds number 2 on the chain at all times that hes the boss and not her but she reminds everyone below her shes the 2nd in command and so forth. The better the chain of dominance at the top dawg and number 2, the stronger the formation of the harem and the less likely hood of another male.
This is probably why some people can just toss a bunch in and get a harem, while others will continuously try and fail. You can get lucky on the chain of dominance or be unlucky and lose a couple hundred dollars.
Based off my observations and trials,if the chain of dominance is formed strongly between the first couple lyres, specifically #1 and #2, the harem becomes solid, if you have a poor chain of dominance at the top, you can expect to have multiple males arising.
To test my hypotheses from the first harem, I started a second harem with bartletts. This harem is about 4 months strong and appears to be very solid. I also notice the relationship between the top dawg and number 2 to be similar to the lyres. Number 2 will display dominance to the remaining females but is always reminded by the top dawg where she stands as well.
Based off what I observed, I tried a different strategy in the 3rd attempt and was successful and was able to reproduce the same results again with a different type of anthias. Will it always work, I do not know for sure. I would have to repeat those same procedures many many more times in order to say that based off my observations, this is the reason why so many people are unable to keep or produce a solid harem and why some are.
Please feel free to add your experiences or attempts to produce a solid harem.
I've had x3 different attempts with each set of harems. After much speculation and observation I feel the 3rd set for each appears to be much more successful then the first two attempts by running a different method of harem formation based off observations in the first two attempts.
In the first attempt I tried with 3 or more females, all of the same size, all at once for both harems. Most of the times when I tried purchasing females only, they all came around the same size so I didn't have much selection there.
Observations in first trial:
-If the dominance issue is a draw between two females both become males and that results in one taking out another unless the tank is large enough for both to have harems which I have read and seen.
-If the dominance issue is not resolved between the females (More then 2), many of them will become males and take out each other. I have read countless posts of people having all their females turn male.
-If you have a female turn male but is too passive, another male will arise from a female who does not feel the dominant pressure applied by the current male, obviously, resulting in a second male.
In the second attempt for a solid harem formation, I tried starting out with a large male with 2 females all at once.
Observations in 2nd trial:
-The male appears not to be established and shows no intentions on keeping a harem. Most of the times, hes more interested in keeping himself alive. I would hypothesize that a male who is aggressive and is eager to claim territory may not run into these problems, however in this case, this male appears not to claim territory or interested in forming a harem.
-He may appear to harass the females but does not show any attempt to keep a harem. He chases them around but not to make a harem, he actually does it to keep them away. If you watch them enough, you will know what kind of chase means, join me or get bullied or the chase that means get out of here! Alot of times, flaring is a good indicator of expression of dominance plus body tapping. Random chasing, without flaring and body tapping, around the tank appears not to be an indicator of trying to express dominance.
-These actions result in the remaining females to fight over each other who will be the leader of the two and henceforth the arising of a second male.
It generally takes about a month for the female to turn male from my experience. In my first two harems, most of them if not all have turned male within 2 months. I ended up selling and trading these out to others who were interested in them. Luckily there was a demand for males.
This third attempt is done with a female. I would hypothesize that starting with a larger male that is aggressive may result in similar outcomes but I would have to test this, however atm, I'm alittle tight on the budget from experimenting lol.
Third attempt trial and observations: Currently been running 6 months with this harem and they appear to have a strong harem formation.
1st: Start off with just one. A fairly large size specimen and female in this case. If you have the chance to, buy one that appears to be much more aggressive then the other females. Not to the point that she'd kill them but she means business and expresses dominance thru bodily displays.
2nd: Let the female adjust to the environment and become established with the territory first, 3 weeks. The second fish will clearly be unfamiliar with the territory.
3rd: After 3 weeks of being well conditioned and adjusted to the aquarium, I introduce the 2nd female, small and if possible, buy passive looking females, ones that prefer not to fight. Also since my female is in much better condition, I would hypothesize that she definitely has much more stamina to constantly fight for her position as the top dawg.
3rd: After another three weeks you will know who is top dawg when the female completely turns male and the female yields to him at all times.
4th: A third, once again a small female, is finally added at this point. It appears that with both a solid male figure and solid female figure, the third female yields quickly. Not only does the male show dominance, so does the 2nd female. However, if the second female goes too far, I have noticed the male comes quickly in to remind the 2nd female where she stands, 2nd and ONLY 2nd. This is what I would say forms the strong harem formations. There becomes a chain of dominance but the top dawg reminds number 2 on the chain at all times that hes the boss and not her but she reminds everyone below her shes the 2nd in command and so forth. The better the chain of dominance at the top dawg and number 2, the stronger the formation of the harem and the less likely hood of another male.
This is probably why some people can just toss a bunch in and get a harem, while others will continuously try and fail. You can get lucky on the chain of dominance or be unlucky and lose a couple hundred dollars.
Based off my observations and trials,if the chain of dominance is formed strongly between the first couple lyres, specifically #1 and #2, the harem becomes solid, if you have a poor chain of dominance at the top, you can expect to have multiple males arising.
To test my hypotheses from the first harem, I started a second harem with bartletts. This harem is about 4 months strong and appears to be very solid. I also notice the relationship between the top dawg and number 2 to be similar to the lyres. Number 2 will display dominance to the remaining females but is always reminded by the top dawg where she stands as well.
Based off what I observed, I tried a different strategy in the 3rd attempt and was successful and was able to reproduce the same results again with a different type of anthias. Will it always work, I do not know for sure. I would have to repeat those same procedures many many more times in order to say that based off my observations, this is the reason why so many people are unable to keep or produce a solid harem and why some are.
Please feel free to add your experiences or attempts to produce a solid harem.
I had a harem of Royal Grammas, 6 of them. They gradually disappeared over a month or so, and now I have 2.
I had a harem of Royal Grammas, 6 of them. They gradually disappeared over a month or so, and now I have 2.
lol...Interesting harem. I should try that one out.
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Excellent observations, tank study. Thanks for sharing.
CenterConsole
New member
Tank study, thanks for the very informative post! What size tank are you keeping your harems in? So based on your observations, as far as anthias go, you should add one aggressive larger female to the display, allow her to become established then add females periodically? I originally planned on getting 5-7 female lyretails and putting them in QT at the same time, probably with egg crate dividers at first. Doesn't sound like that will yield a healthy harem though.
Royal grammas would make an interesting harem, a lot cheaper than anthias as well!
Another harem I'd like to try is with flame angels. I think that would be more of 5 flame angels tolerating each other than forming a harem.
Glass cardinals is another fish harem I'm considering as well.
Royal grammas would make an interesting harem, a lot cheaper than anthias as well!
Another harem I'd like to try is with flame angels. I think that would be more of 5 flame angels tolerating each other than forming a harem.
Glass cardinals is another fish harem I'm considering as well.
Monkeyfish
Active member
:lmao:
CenterConsole
New member
I'm not sure on grammas either, sounds like a pair might be the way to go. Sorry about your reef crashing, always depressing to hear.
Yes, that is the route I chose to do and it worked out. Let the starter establish and then add slowly.
I would hypothesize that a male who is interested in building a harem and is semi-aggressive would work as well as the starter. However, determining if hes interested is a hit and miss until you add the first female.
SushiGirl
Premium Member
In 2003 I added 1 male & 3 female Carpenter's wrasses of the same size at the same time. I had no trouble with the females, and the male put on quite a display often. He died after 6 months, not sure why. One of the females had almost completely turned male when my grape caulerpa went sexual while I was out of town & killed everything in my tank. Mom wasn't a good tank sitter!
This was a 38 gallon, sumpless, 3 ft long tank, and the male was very cramped in there when he was getting his groove on. That's why I never recommend one in less than a 4 ft tank. I have some crappy vids & pics, but I'm on my phone so can't post them right now. I only have bad vids of the male flashing, none of the group interaction. The females usually just got out of his way when he got going.
This was a 38 gallon, sumpless, 3 ft long tank, and the male was very cramped in there when he was getting his groove on. That's why I never recommend one in less than a 4 ft tank. I have some crappy vids & pics, but I'm on my phone so can't post them right now. I only have bad vids of the male flashing, none of the group interaction. The females usually just got out of his way when he got going.
I disagree. I've had best luck simply adding tiny females from the get go. They figure it out themselves, without me giving a "preference" and risking fighting. Also, adding females in the future, again, tiny females, so there is no question of dominance.
o2manyfish
o2manyfish
I have kept a trio of Flame Angels in the past and they were cool to watch. I added all 3 when they were tiny and they were neat to watch in a group.
I have kept trios of bar gobies many times over the years. They are great filler fish in a reef.
At the moment I have 3 Royal Gramma - Two are a pair on the far right side of the tank and 1 is single on the left side. I had started with 4 but one jumped.
I have a trio of Bellus Angels. I have a mature male and female for over a years. Last year I bought a super tiny female (3/4") and added it to the tank. Nobody ever bothered it and it is now a full grown female that I saw spawn several weeks ago. However, the Bellus are not a harem. They are three independent fish that seldom interact. I do occassionally witness the male following the larger female back and forth across the front of the tank.
I have a group of 6 Dispar Anthias. I have only had them since November. I bought all females and they school as one group, but they sleep in 2 groups on different sides of the tank. There is a male with each sleeping group. When they school I have not witnesses any fighting amoung the two males.
I have a group of 6 Bangai for over a year. They are all independent, but in the past few months I have seen as many as 3 males holding eggs at the same time.
I also have 9 yellow tangs, but that's not a harem is it
Lots of other pairs in the tank. Some of them bonded some of them not.
Dave B
I have kept trios of bar gobies many times over the years. They are great filler fish in a reef.
At the moment I have 3 Royal Gramma - Two are a pair on the far right side of the tank and 1 is single on the left side. I had started with 4 but one jumped.
I have a trio of Bellus Angels. I have a mature male and female for over a years. Last year I bought a super tiny female (3/4") and added it to the tank. Nobody ever bothered it and it is now a full grown female that I saw spawn several weeks ago. However, the Bellus are not a harem. They are three independent fish that seldom interact. I do occassionally witness the male following the larger female back and forth across the front of the tank.
I have a group of 6 Dispar Anthias. I have only had them since November. I bought all females and they school as one group, but they sleep in 2 groups on different sides of the tank. There is a male with each sleeping group. When they school I have not witnesses any fighting amoung the two males.
I have a group of 6 Bangai for over a year. They are all independent, but in the past few months I have seen as many as 3 males holding eggs at the same time.
I also have 9 yellow tangs, but that's not a harem is it
Lots of other pairs in the tank. Some of them bonded some of them not.
Dave B
el aguila
Member
I added 6 smaller Royal Grammas all at the same time and they just dwindled away. I will also have to admit that "at that" time I had a Foxface that was being more aggresive than average and the Grammas were one species that he liked to terrorize.
He was removed last summer after I found my nice, healthy CBB of 2 yrs+ dead in a cave. Can't be 100% certain that the foxface nailed him, but just the possibility was enough for me to send him to a new home.
I'ld like to try another group again in the near future because this is the most docile my tank has been for sometime.
He was removed last summer after I found my nice, healthy CBB of 2 yrs+ dead in a cave. Can't be 100% certain that the foxface nailed him, but just the possibility was enough for me to send him to a new home.
I'ld like to try another group again in the near future because this is the most docile my tank has been for sometime.
