LFP's Xenon Projection and Cree LED DIY lighting system.

[BeanAnimal]

Doh!

Luke you beat me to it and posted while I was typing.

 

[RussM]

Innovative, daring, well-researched, and well-executed projects like this are why I've become addicted to this DIY forum.

 

[JACOXVIII]

you missed the point I'm not saying light the whole dam tank
my point is that these lights have much more intensity and spectrum then you give them credit

""Xenon gas discharge lamps can and do achieve 100lm/w. They have no inefficiency of Phosphor conversions associated with fluorescent and MH. The efficiency numbers you are seeing are for pure Xenon short arc bulbs. This is an entirely different bulb type.""

this is what i have been trying to get across
thanks LFP

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074959#post14074959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
you missed the point

No I have not missed the point

my point is that these lights have much more intensity and spectrum then you give them credit

Sorry my friend, but you can't hold me to comments I have not made. Please try to keep what has been said in context to where it was and and why.

You have taken up a cause on (2) of these threads but done so with a very clear gap in understanding of the technology. You are riding the coat tails of other's remarks to frame your own comments and it is getting you in trouble

When responding, please try to keep my comments and your subsuquent remarks in context to the threads they were made in. You are mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed.

I am not here to quibble with you, but rather to participate in Luke's lighting discussion. Again, I aplaud your enthusiasm with regard to this subject, but don't step in too deep before you know where the bottom is.

I attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup. I also pointed out that your counter "attacks" towards areze may be well intentioned, but are not really well supported. Lets move forward, shall we.

 

[THEUNION1]

Great idea i love this concept and also like the effects of "spot" lighting. I like the dark spots in the reef, makes it seem so surreal.

Very good!

P.s. Lets see more tank shots.

 

[Lionel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074796#post14074796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
By contrast, my 4x250w setup made around 70,000 lumens total, but wasted the bulk of this of this light doing things like giving the surface of my glass 150-300PAR, and making the whole room glow like a spaceship is landing.

It seems to me maybe that's exactly what areze is trying to accomplish.. he needs light for his baking soda rocketship..

 

[dohc97]

I happen to be friends with Eric over at the glassbox so i read the article before coming in here to find this thread. I have to say that this idea was floating around my head for awhile, check out my signature which has been there for over a year. Its great to see someone implement this and im looking forward to more pictures and actual growth.

 

[Electrobes]

I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics!

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14077219#post14077219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Electrobes
I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics!

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it

Other than the fact that I nessed up a few ZEROS here and there.

For clarity sake, lets do it again with more reasonable numbers:

(2) setups.

#1 = 1000W worth of electricity 90% efficent lighting over 100 square feet or about 9W per square foot over the whole tank.

#2 = 650W worth of 80% efficent lighting over 50 square feet (spotlights on 50 corals) or about 10.4W per square foot

So it is certainly possible to use less efficient lighting and still get more usable light where it is needed and use less overall electricity.

Does Luke's setup pan-out number wise? I dunno... It is an interesting project nonetheless. The first indicator will be how well the corals look mid to long term

 

[jerryz]

Bean you touched on the very Japanese style/ feel of this lighting. a distinct advantage is in the ability to "individually" target individual pieces with lighting spectrum and intensity wise most appropriate for them. I'm very interested in the particular bulbs chosen and some more info on how it's wired up. etc.

 

[areze]

could we see the spectral analysis that you did? youve reffered to the spectrum a few times, it would certainly go a long way to convincing me that Im mistaken.

perhaps some par readings as well? because your right, lumens are crap and can be misleading, so I presume youve measured par.

 

[areze]

btw, Ive read that tropical climates, par at sea level is somewhere around 2000.

unfortunatly with my 1800w that you talk about photoinhibition, but I have not even begun to approach 2000par at the water surface. if only! granted I guess Ive "wasted" much of the light on areas that dont have coral. but I like it

where did you find the photoinhibition levels for your corals anyway? I have never seen such "hard" numbers published.

 

[Fishboy93]

Awesome set up LFP! I've followed all of your work from the stainless/rimless/plywood tank, the VFD driven dart, the LFP super venturi, and that crazy new skimmer and am always amazed by your ingenuity. Are you going to release the brand/type/kelvin of HID bulb that you found to be of the best spectrum or do you not want to give away the secret just yet?

 

[JACOXVIII]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074868#post14074868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
JACO my friend, as I pointed out in the other thread, you have all sorts of things and contexts confused. Your making less sense than areze in your attempts to show him to be wrong.

As I pointed out in the other thread, and Luke has started to point out here...

Lets take a 10' x 10' tank and light it (2) ways.

First lets bath all 100 square feet with a 100% efficent light that consumes 100W even though only 50 square feet of that tank contain living creatures that need intense light. Lets assume that the light is even. So now we have about 1W intense light per sqaure foot of tank but 50W are being pretty much wasted.

Now lets bath that 100sq foot tank with 500W worth of light that is only 50% efficient. That is 250W worth of intense light entering the tank. Lets divide that light into 50 fixtures that produce 1 sqaure foot of intense light. That is 5W of intense light per each of the 50 zones. Lets call it 3W and some spillover into the "dark" areas.

So with setup #1 we use 1000W and lighjt the whole setup to the same intensity but only get about 1W of intensity in each of the 50 coral zones.

With setup #2 we use 500W of which only 250W is available but we get over 3W of intensity over each of the 50 coral zones and enough spillover to light the tank.

Setup #2 is much less efficient in terms of lumens (or PAR) per watt, but it uses a fraction of the electricity to provide the corals with MORE light where needed.

You just learned the difference between AREA (flood) lighting and ZONE (spot) lighting. Sometimes the most efficient technology is not the most efficient method.

Each method has pros and cons. In our case it is mostly aesthetics between the different types of lamps and combinations of lamps. If you do not like the "spotlight" look, then this is not for you at all. In Japan, the look has become the rage from what I have read.

never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start

and to what Luke has started to point out here...
has all been pointed to areze has
post

sorry that i was using lumens per watt and not spectral output and intensity
but when you look at the charts for a mh and these hid bulbs not standard xenon the are near the same

 

[saltydog64]

luke...............

You are the man.................and I just bet u in your near future more than one OEM will be in touch with you as I think your on to something that could be big......now I'm not a "tree hugger" or a greenie by no means BUT saving power is what could save our hobby............just my 2cents....

Keep up the great work !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dick

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14080257#post14080257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start

Nobody said you did. Context my friend... you keep taking comments out of context to formulate your responses.

 

[liveforphysics]

Thank you folks for all the kind words.

areze- If you read my response to you, i give PAR values Im seeing on the bottom of my tank.

Here is one article giving photo-inhibition numbers for a favorite coral of mine, montipora undata. Inhibition begins to occur at roughly 200par for this species.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/3/aafeature2/view

Here is photo-saturation data for a number of other species. They didn't push all the tests to the point of complete inhibition of photosynthesis, but they do show that point where additional light starts causing less photosynthesis.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1/view

I may have too much light on my corals! I could change the current sensing shunt resistors in the ballast to lower the power of the HIDs (or remove some) if needed, and I do have full control over the output of the LEDs, so I can fix the problem if needed.


I will be doing a second look at the spectrum once I reach 200 hours of burn-in time on the bulbs. I will try to find something better than the Perkin Elmer Lambda POS that the community college physics lab I volunteer at had available, and then I will post some graphs.

I just read a very interesting article

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/aafeature1

It makes me want to re-evaluate my bulb choices to exclude the purple bulbs that had a few heavy red lines... The more I learn about corals, the more I realize they do not want anything like full spectrum lighting. I'm glad most of the Xenon bulbs and all of the LEDs are mainly composed of strong blue spikes in useful photosynthetic wavelengths.


Best Wishes,
-Luke

 

[liveforphysics]

Part two of the article!

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/part-2-lfp’s-xenon-and-led-reef-lighting-system/


This is a neat picture that shows you the intensity and focus of the spot lights. This is the second stage of the lighting turning on in the morning. My last setup used 7 stages of lighting between sunrise to sunset, I set this up to only use 5 stages, but I like the contrast in the lighting stages much more with this setup.

 

[JACOXVIII]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14075033#post14075033 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
No I have not missed the point

Sorry my friend, but you can't hold me to comments I have not made. Please try to keep what has been said in context to where it was and and why.

You have taken up a cause on (2) of these threads but done so with a very clear gap in understanding of the technology. You are riding the coat tails of other's remarks to frame your own comments and it is getting you in trouble

When responding, please try to keep my comments and your subsuquent remarks in context to the threads they were made in. You are mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed.

I am not here to quibble with you, but rather to participate in Luke's lighting discussion. Again, I aplaud your enthusiasm with regard to this subject, but don't step in too deep before you know where the bottom is.

I attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup. I also pointed out that your counter "attacks" towards areze may be well intentioned, but are not really well supported. Lets move forward, shall we.

sorry man but i do not like the way you post your context to always try and make someone look slow
you have said that i'm not up to speed
help speed me up

in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them

on the other hand you have not
in more then 1 post all you have stated is how this will not work

your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.

or did you forget?



this was my first post over on the other thread

""ok fun we had the same idea http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...hreadid=1538451
i think it will work good
they all said led would not work at first but it does
but i thought a small group the hid like 3 or 4
1 green 1 blue 1 white 1 pink or red
maybe 3 in a triangle at the top of a lumen bright so it would beam all of the light right to the bottom of the tank""

yes i did not talk about the spotlighting but the link i posted did
then again in my 2nd or 3rd post i had links to the-glassbox about the japan spotlights


""coat tails"" ?
i have been for the hids from the start all over the other post you state how it would not work

but know you say that you are here to participate in Luke's lighting discussion
and how spotlighting may work
you must see luke's coat tails


I'm ?
""mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed..""

ok i did use lumens

but how am i

you and areze say the spectral output and intensity is wrong
LFP said you are wrong i think he's right

"context between two threads"

both are about the using of hid and how to light a tank with them

" different aspects of thetechnology being discussed"
it is about hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs
do you know the different aspects?

i would like to see chart /graphs and info
about how the hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs are so wrong for the tank
charts and info need is spectral output , intensity, par ,kelvin rating, the wave length O and lumens per watt for the hid and a mh




plz tell me how me and hummermaniac88
wanting to use hids to light a tank is different then LFP
other then his rig is built and we are are not done


I (BeanAnimal) attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup

how did you try to tell me it wold work when that is what i have said from the start


thanks to all that are on board with the hid lighting

thank you Luke to being the first to do this and help us that would like to do so too

to
BeanAnimal areze I'm done (with you) not the hid lighting

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14081281#post14081281 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
sorry but man but your a jerk

Personal attacks don't bode well here my friend.

in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them

Nobody said anything to the contrary. There is no point to debate here.

your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.

or did you forget?

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! My remarks were aimed at hummermaniacs proposed use of the lights. Please, I beg you, stop taking remarks out of context. hummermaniacs did not propose "spotlight" style lighting with high intensity LED supplementation. My remarks in BOTH threads have been very clear, please keep them in context.

You are confusing "Coat Tails" with "Bandwagon", sir. The meaning was that you clearly didn't grasp the topic you were trying to argue and instead were simply recasting the informed remarks (out of context) that others made. Again, a problem with context.

As for the rest of your post, I am not going to bother. You are chasing your tail in circles trying to carry on a pointless fight. Please stop trying so hard to inflame people. I have been as kind as possible, but the continued lack of context to this discussion is becoming a distraction to those who are here to discuss Luke's project.

If you have not figured it out yet, Luke is my friend and I support his DIY efforts no matter what the outcome is. This particular project does not suit my personal aesthetic tastes, but it does suit his. Did you take a moment to notice that I took the time to help explain the methodology to those who had doubts about the efficiency? I am very interested in watching the long term results. Please, lets move forward.