I owned a fish store for 3 years, then my partners wanted out , so I had to sell. I couldn't afford it on my own. The new guy who purchased it kept me as an employee. He would get fish in from overseas and they were horrible. Half were dead in the box. Whatever ones were left never lasted long. After a few months I wouldn't even buy anything from there. They were diseased and infected all my fish at home. Same with corals. They would come in with aefw and red bugs. Told my boss and he just says dip it and put it back up for sale. I quit almost a year ago, and still don't buy anything there. He lost so many customers because of bad business. But all those customers that left lost thousands of dollars in fish and coral. It's sad how some people just don't care what they sell and to whom. I guess they figure that if anything dies, they'll just come back for more.
LFS and AEFW
- Thread starter bigbuckdown
- Start date
I am going to be silly here, because I don't believe you would do this...but you are implying it would be ok.
So if you had an LFS you wouldn't want to know, you would not want your customers to be alerted to a problem in your tanks and it wouldn't be your responsibility to try and eradicate them in your tanks that you are selling to people from?
Alerting the LFS and the customer base is not slagging the LFS, it is taking steps towards correcting a problem, and I would be willing to bet the LFS would want to know and would appreciate the heads up. If they did not, then I would not buy them from again.
I would love to see system set up like you describe, but it would not have to be on the LFS level, it would need to be higher up. The LFS would be getting a product that is actually worth the price it is charging. I doubt it will ever happen, companies are too often motivated only about money and not what they are doing. I will always encourage people to check and treat on their own, but the majority of people buying a coral are not educated enough on pests, they buy them and put them in the tank. This problem is still going to grow until someone sees it as a problem and decides to act on it.
Something rolling downhill tends to keep rolling until it either reaches bottom or is stopped along the way.
So if you had an LFS you wouldn't want to know, you would not want your customers to be alerted to a problem in your tanks and it wouldn't be your responsibility to try and eradicate them in your tanks that you are selling to people from?
Alerting the LFS and the customer base is not slagging the LFS, it is taking steps towards correcting a problem, and I would be willing to bet the LFS would want to know and would appreciate the heads up. If they did not, then I would not buy them from again.
I would love to see system set up like you describe, but it would not have to be on the LFS level, it would need to be higher up. The LFS would be getting a product that is actually worth the price it is charging. I doubt it will ever happen, companies are too often motivated only about money and not what they are doing. I will always encourage people to check and treat on their own, but the majority of people buying a coral are not educated enough on pests, they buy them and put them in the tank. This problem is still going to grow until someone sees it as a problem and decides to act on it.
Something rolling downhill tends to keep rolling until it either reaches bottom or is stopped along the way.
MammothReefer
Active member
@flynnfish - that's just a irresponsible owner that is throwing money away. If your livestock is all dying you have bigger issues. AEFW != instant death.
@sirreal63 - Alert the LFS is one thing, but what can they do? Complain to the supplier? Throw out the coral? Tear down everything close shop and QT? You can't send it back. What would you do? To me this just comes down to what type of store it is. If it's the type of store that is growing frags. They would want to know they have AEFW, or some pest in the grow out system. I had a shop, I did want to know. Back in the days I tried some very primitive methods of pest removal and lost more then my fair share of corals in the process. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place as LFS.
It comes down to the type of store imop. If it's the type of store that is just reselling corals they purchase from other locations there just isn't anything at this time they can effectively do. Until there is either a single dip solution, or an in tank treatment. On top of that as a LFS can you ever be 100% sure your piece is the root of the pest? Unless the customer does as the OP did once it's your system it's anybodies guess where the pests came from. Also where do you draw the line. AEFW, Red Bugs, Mantis Shrimp, Algae, Aptasia, Majonas, Nudis, Fireworms, Medusa worms, the list of pests just goes on and on and some of them you will never find unless you start splitting apart the rocks.
The slagging happens when you start to post online, or share with others that "so and so has pests in there system" is when businesses get slagged. Two different actions. I know of a respectable online store who took a HUGE hit to his business when somebody simply claimed to receive redbugs from a coral from him and this guy actually treats his stuff.
That system could work in a warehouse type LFS setting. Might be a bit trickier for general purpose retail shops.
@sirreal63 - Alert the LFS is one thing, but what can they do? Complain to the supplier? Throw out the coral? Tear down everything close shop and QT? You can't send it back. What would you do? To me this just comes down to what type of store it is. If it's the type of store that is growing frags. They would want to know they have AEFW, or some pest in the grow out system. I had a shop, I did want to know. Back in the days I tried some very primitive methods of pest removal and lost more then my fair share of corals in the process. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place as LFS.
It comes down to the type of store imop. If it's the type of store that is just reselling corals they purchase from other locations there just isn't anything at this time they can effectively do. Until there is either a single dip solution, or an in tank treatment. On top of that as a LFS can you ever be 100% sure your piece is the root of the pest? Unless the customer does as the OP did once it's your system it's anybodies guess where the pests came from. Also where do you draw the line. AEFW, Red Bugs, Mantis Shrimp, Algae, Aptasia, Majonas, Nudis, Fireworms, Medusa worms, the list of pests just goes on and on and some of them you will never find unless you start splitting apart the rocks.
The slagging happens when you start to post online, or share with others that "so and so has pests in there system" is when businesses get slagged. Two different actions. I know of a respectable online store who took a HUGE hit to his business when somebody simply claimed to receive redbugs from a coral from him and this guy actually treats his stuff.
That system could work in a warehouse type LFS setting. Might be a bit trickier for general purpose retail shops.
Allmost
New member
wild corals, can have pests.
aquacultured corals, will have less chance of pests.
wild fish, can have disease.
captive bread fish, will have less chance of disease.
this is why one should QT their corals, dip them, observe them and so on.
I have dealth with AEFW in the past ... I blame myself for not dipping enough ... I took a risk, and lost, simple as that. [well my corals survived and I beat it but ....]
do you get mad at your LFS if your fish get ICH ? no ...
aquacultured corals, will have less chance of pests.
wild fish, can have disease.
captive bread fish, will have less chance of disease.
this is why one should QT their corals, dip them, observe them and so on.
I have dealth with AEFW in the past ... I blame myself for not dipping enough ... I took a risk, and lost, simple as that. [well my corals survived and I beat it but ....]
do you get mad at your LFS if your fish get ICH ? no ...
The LFS should do exactly what any of us would do, set up a QT, treat and observe. If it means not selling corals for a few weeks that is much better than doing nothing and burying their head in the sand. It is far easier for a LFS to treat their corals which are mobile than it is for us to deal with a display tank where the corals are not so easy to treat.
In every local club I have been in, including the one I was part of starting, the local LFS's had a relationship and sponsorship in the local club. The word will get out and what the LFS does means everything. The point is that it is vastly better for everyone to know this information than it is to hide it. Nothing good will come from hiding it. Some stores are better suited for dealing with it than others, no doubt there, but to intentionally hide the information from everyone does no one any good.
The answer simply cannot be to do nothing and say nothing.
In every local club I have been in, including the one I was part of starting, the local LFS's had a relationship and sponsorship in the local club. The word will get out and what the LFS does means everything. The point is that it is vastly better for everyone to know this information than it is to hide it. Nothing good will come from hiding it. Some stores are better suited for dealing with it than others, no doubt there, but to intentionally hide the information from everyone does no one any good.
The answer simply cannot be to do nothing and say nothing.
MammothReefer
Active member
Nobody is hiding anything. All corals may have pests. Buyer Beware. I disagree it's not easier for a LFS to set that up, I had a shop. The volume is to great. Sure maybe you can dip everything before you put it in your tank but 1 you are risking it, and 2 a single dip isn't going to do the job all the time. I would need to hold every shipment I received for 6 weeks in an isolated system to claim I am pest free.
If you look at this scenario in a different way, consider getting a puppy. What if the place you got it from knew that heartworms, mange, parvo, distemper, rabies and any other maladies were possible. They decide not to give their animals shots, do no preventive medicine at all and just sell puppies. They expect you to know that it is possible for pets to get diseases so it isn't their responsibility. How is that any different than this? By the related scenario it is ok for puppy mills to just crank out puppies with no regard to the health of their stock. It is just inconvenient for a breeder to ensure the health of the animals they sell, better to just let the owner deal with it. If someone should discover diseases or other maladies coming from this puppy mill, please don't say anything, it isn't fair to the breeder, after all, you should assume all puppies can get sick. :hmm3:
In the big scheme of things, is this really any different? An extreme example it is, but a reality it is as well.
In the big scheme of things, is this really any different? An extreme example it is, but a reality it is as well.
trueblackpercula
New member
I don't think any LFS or wholesaler is going to quartine there corals just for us. Ever!!!!!
Moser
Active member
I can only agree with MammothReefer here.
None of you seem to be looking at this from the sellers perspective.....
It is impossible to guarantee having pest free SPS that come from the ocean and no commercial enterprise that regularly gets shipments can have a system robust enough to guarantee being pest free. It takes only one egg.
Frag farmers that have low turnover of species may stake a claim, but even if they get regular new prize corals, they are at risk and cannot guarantee being pest free.
It's A simple fact that you cannot get away from. MammothReefer seems to have clearly grasped this. The question you need to ask is which LFS has never seen AEFW?. If any claim this, then go and look for their elaborate qt system and I guarantee it doesn't exist....
An SPS tank without wrasses should not exist!.
Mo
None of you seem to be looking at this from the sellers perspective.....
It is impossible to guarantee having pest free SPS that come from the ocean and no commercial enterprise that regularly gets shipments can have a system robust enough to guarantee being pest free. It takes only one egg.
Frag farmers that have low turnover of species may stake a claim, but even if they get regular new prize corals, they are at risk and cannot guarantee being pest free.
It's A simple fact that you cannot get away from. MammothReefer seems to have clearly grasped this. The question you need to ask is which LFS has never seen AEFW?. If any claim this, then go and look for their elaborate qt system and I guarantee it doesn't exist....
An SPS tank without wrasses should not exist!.
Mo
trueblackpercula
New member
Which do you recommend ?
MammothReefer
Active member
It's not a fair comprasion. Look at the differences between the industries. Dogs are mammals, corals are treated like plants, and fish are treated like food. We don't hold them to the same esteem. (I started to type out something here but I wandered way off point so I'll just paraphrase.. If we treated dogs like corals every LFS owner and worker, coral breeder, and reef keeper would be in jail for animal cruelty.)
It comes down 2 things
Volume & Survivability. A puppy mill is not a good place to buy puppies from, but a large LFS that gets in multiple shipments of 100s of corals a week isn't a bad fish store. (We make that judgment based on other things) The process of treating those pests is very different.
Let me ask you this. If you were to buy a puppy and the breeder said "Oh I just found out it has worms. I know you want this puppy I'll hold it for you if you give me a non-refundable deposit and then you can pick it up in 6 weeks when it's cured and you won't have to worry about a thing." Would you do it? (How many people buy dogs and cats from breeders before they are ready to be separated from the mom and have to wait.. I know I did. It's pretty standard.)
But say you go to a LFS and they say "We just got in this new batch of acros in, shiny and new. If you want to give us a non-refundable deposit, and then you can come pick up your acro in 6 weeks after they are fully QT'd and treated." Would you do that? I sure know I wouldn't there is a very high chance I'll show up in 6 weeks and the coral will be dead or brown and I'll be out my deposit.
I really wish there was a better system but as long we buy maricultured, and wild pieces and there isn't a easier way to treat for pests, it just isn't feasible. The system I outlined on the other page was something I have been kicking around for a long time, and how I would go about it if I ever started another shop up. For me as somebody who has lost corals to pests, as well as lived with pests. I would want to offer my customers the option of getting pest free corals but the only way I could make it work would be to charge a premium and it would really only appeal to a select few people. If you did the math of what it would cost me as a shop to hold a coral for 6 weeks, treat it, factor in the losses (both death and loss in value due to colour shifts) I would receive over that time frame into the price. The price tag for fully qt'd, pest free, colorful, wild pieces would be huge. If you had two identically pieces. One 100% guarantee no pests the other. No gaurtnee (but that doesn't mean there is pests just buyer beware). Say the non qt'd piece cost $30. How much more would you pay for a qt'd pest free piece? $60, $90, $200? The cost to QT will be the same regardless of it's a $10 brown coral, or a $300 ultra piece. The only factor would be size as it would take up more space in the QT for the 6 weeks.
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Moser
Active member
Silver belly and yellow are very good.
Any Anampses or Halichoeres.... These are great scavengers....
Wrasses eventually get territorial, so don't leave it too long before first and last go in...
Moser
Active member
Realistically, the only way is a dip that kills eggs.
What happened to that rps dip???. Seems to have vanished?.
Mo
MammothReefer
Active member
I use it. I like it better then Bayer. I don't know if it really kills the eggs or not but I know it kills AEFW and I've had a higher survival rate with corals that I dip in RPS then any other dip.
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Piper27
I love bengals
I don't think anyone implied that, expecting this to get resolved on the fish store end is not anyone's responsibility but the lfs's. Our responsibility should be to post on local forums teaching newcomers and such what to look for and keep everyone aware that there are ALWAYS pests of some sort at most local fish stores. I don't think posting on a local forum and telling everyone the exact pests which are at the exact store will do anything but ruin buisness. Keeping people aware and actively learning about specific pests is what I believe will do the most good.
I will always strongly suggest that people treat and QT, for the safety of their tanks. I will always be in favor of spreading the word on pests and diseases, but a very large portion of the people buying corals does not frequent message boards or reef clubs. This does nothing to address the growing problem and offers no solution to correcting it at the source.
Looking at the chain of custody for a minute. These pests did not originate in our tanks and work their way back to the importers and wholesalers tanks. It happened the other way, the pests are coming into the hobby from the wholesale level. If these holding tanks are now a breeding place for pests and we do nothing to prevent it, what is the end result?
Simply for math sake, say if 1 in 100 corals comes into a trans ship or holding facility infected with a pest. It goes into a vat that is breeding pests because it has not been continually eradicated of pests. You can expect that now a very large percentage of the corals coming from that facility have pests, that they did not have before. Now every portion of the supply chain down the line also has these pests. While I would hope that the wholesaler would employ methods to keep their tanks clean, they don't really have any incentive to do so. How sad is that? If the pests are not dealt with at the earliest opportunity to do so then the problem will only grow. You can swat bees all day long but until you remove the nest you are simply wasting your time.
I spent my 30 year career in manufacturing, wholesale, distribution and retail. Our sawmill owned it's own timber base, as most large sawmills do, and we managed it to be sustainable. This included pest management, because it was vital to protecting our monetary base, the timberlands. It would be unthinkable to do anything different.
The oil analogy is a great one, no matter ow many times you change the oil to get metal shavings out that bearing will never get better and will only get worse. This is why the pest problem in the hobby has got worse, no one is correcting the problem, only treating the symptom. The whole point is that it has to start somewhere, and if it doesn't start at the beginning of the supply chain it will never be corrected or even reduced.
Looking at the chain of custody for a minute. These pests did not originate in our tanks and work their way back to the importers and wholesalers tanks. It happened the other way, the pests are coming into the hobby from the wholesale level. If these holding tanks are now a breeding place for pests and we do nothing to prevent it, what is the end result?
Simply for math sake, say if 1 in 100 corals comes into a trans ship or holding facility infected with a pest. It goes into a vat that is breeding pests because it has not been continually eradicated of pests. You can expect that now a very large percentage of the corals coming from that facility have pests, that they did not have before. Now every portion of the supply chain down the line also has these pests. While I would hope that the wholesaler would employ methods to keep their tanks clean, they don't really have any incentive to do so. How sad is that? If the pests are not dealt with at the earliest opportunity to do so then the problem will only grow. You can swat bees all day long but until you remove the nest you are simply wasting your time.
I spent my 30 year career in manufacturing, wholesale, distribution and retail. Our sawmill owned it's own timber base, as most large sawmills do, and we managed it to be sustainable. This included pest management, because it was vital to protecting our monetary base, the timberlands. It would be unthinkable to do anything different.
The oil analogy is a great one, no matter ow many times you change the oil to get metal shavings out that bearing will never get better and will only get worse. This is why the pest problem in the hobby has got worse, no one is correcting the problem, only treating the symptom. The whole point is that it has to start somewhere, and if it doesn't start at the beginning of the supply chain it will never be corrected or even reduced.
FoothillCorals
Premium Member
Allmost
New member
all wild corals can have pests. as previously said, there is not even 1 LFS that claims to have Pest free Wild corals.
should stick to aqua cultured to be safer with regards to pests.
MammothReefer
Active member
I get what your saying but it's not applicable to this situation. It's a very different business model dealing with very different beasts. You can treat a log, treat a dog, or what not and not worry about it dieing or changing on you because the environment they are in is changing and toxic to it. Wholesalers and most LFS are not equipped to deal with SPS short term let alone long term. There isn't a hobbyist out there who hasn't lost a coral and we have very tight nit micro climate that we can control much easier then these large facilities. Essentially you really can't compare corals to anything where you don't have to worry about adapting it to a new environment. A dog isn't going to suddenly be unable to breath and die because you move it from one house to another, and your timber isn't going to wither away because you sat on it during it's treatment cycle. You can't say the same about corals.
While in principle what your are suggesting sounds great the logistics of it are impossible. You are asking every LFS, wholesaler, and every hand a coral might touch from the ocean to our hands to now become expert level reef keepers with the capability to hold, maintain, and treat, acropora for up to 6 weeks per stop. They also need to do this while maintaining it's original out of the ocean vibrancy so we the customer will see what we are buying and not some dilapidated brown stick that may not be infested with any pests but is stn'ing because of the complexities of maintaining a stable reef environment, if not the value of said pieces is going to plummet to nothing. What's an easier process. Having every store, wholesaler, and importer completely redo there facility and higher all new staff to deal with perceived pests vs us the consumer dipping / qtining the few new corals we buy every few months.
Learning about pests is a part of learning about keeping SPS. I'm just glad these days we know what is eating our corals because when I first got into SPS, AEFW and Monti eating nudis were unheard of by most of us. SPS is the most challenging aspect of reef keeping. It's not for everybody. The commitment we need to make in terms of time, money, and equipment is bigger and riskier then all other aspects of the hobby (maybe not NPS).
I guess to me what it boils down to is. If you are going to dip, and qt every piece you get from wherever you get it. What does it matter if the LFS does the same? What does it matter if the coral has pests, or doesn't. If you treat them all like they do then the end result is the same.
While in principle what your are suggesting sounds great the logistics of it are impossible. You are asking every LFS, wholesaler, and every hand a coral might touch from the ocean to our hands to now become expert level reef keepers with the capability to hold, maintain, and treat, acropora for up to 6 weeks per stop. They also need to do this while maintaining it's original out of the ocean vibrancy so we the customer will see what we are buying and not some dilapidated brown stick that may not be infested with any pests but is stn'ing because of the complexities of maintaining a stable reef environment, if not the value of said pieces is going to plummet to nothing. What's an easier process. Having every store, wholesaler, and importer completely redo there facility and higher all new staff to deal with perceived pests vs us the consumer dipping / qtining the few new corals we buy every few months.
Learning about pests is a part of learning about keeping SPS. I'm just glad these days we know what is eating our corals because when I first got into SPS, AEFW and Monti eating nudis were unheard of by most of us. SPS is the most challenging aspect of reef keeping. It's not for everybody. The commitment we need to make in terms of time, money, and equipment is bigger and riskier then all other aspects of the hobby (maybe not NPS).
I guess to me what it boils down to is. If you are going to dip, and qt every piece you get from wherever you get it. What does it matter if the LFS does the same? What does it matter if the coral has pests, or doesn't. If you treat them all like they do then the end result is the same.
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